• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Expansion of LNER 70-min flex trial area ("Simpler Fares")

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
17,689
Location
Isle of Man
My suspicion is that it will be but in a slightly different form, i.e. without walk-on flexibility but allowing a change within 70 minutes to be done without additional fare/admin fee online IF there is availability
The only way I could see the flex continuing is as a standalone supplement to the advance fare. You get something like a flex voucher which you can show alongside your ticket if you get another train. Similar to how TPE manage their Airport Advance by simply endorsing the original ticket, none of this online rebooking nonsense.

I do think they will bin it off entirely though.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Benjwri

Established Member
Joined
16 Jan 2022
Messages
3,340
Location
London
I often do that anyway. It's more convenient than faffing with paper tickets. I only don't do it when it's unduly expensive to do so.

Now Trainline does splits the idea of needing to use them is no longer a significant issue, given that the vast majority of tickets are sold on Trainline (and all other good retailers do splits too, plus some ropey ones :) ).
I usually go for whatever is cheapest, generally it ends up being some form of ticket, either an underground zonal or cross London for me.

That being said I wish there was a retailer that would tell you when it was cheaper to use contactless, rather than having to do multiple crashes and work it out every time.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
114,003
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
That being said I wish there was a retailer that would tell you when it was cheaper to use contactless, rather than having to do multiple crashes and work it out every time.

It would indeed be nice if Trainsplit had a three way toggle on that matter - a choice of "show me only tickets with cross London validity", "also show me tickets without cross London validity if they are cheaper" and "don't show me any tickets with cross London validity". At least until e-tickets are valid on the Tube. The present toggle doesn't offer the middle one.

"If they are cheaper" is a bit of a woolly idea, because people might have a pass, walk, cycle or use the bus across, but if it offered both and flagged it up it's easy to decide yourself.
 

Sonic1234

Member
Joined
25 Apr 2021
Messages
804
Location
Croydon
Of course given the trial was does with TfL, I still think it might be intentional. It’s well known they dislike paper tickets and want to phase them out, I’m sure they would love everyone to buy separate tickets and use contactless across London.
Ironic, as TfL are the reason a lot of paper tickets are still in circulation.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
114,003
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Of course given the trial was does with TfL, I still think it might be intentional. It’s well known they dislike paper tickets and want to phase them out, I’m sure they would love everyone to buy separate tickets and use contactless across London.

Ooh, good point. Are 70 Minute tickets fulfillable on paper? If not that might be an explanation.
 

Benjwri

Established Member
Joined
16 Jan 2022
Messages
3,340
Location
London
It would indeed be nice if Trainsplit had a three way toggle on that matter - a choice of "show me only tickets with cross London validity", "also show me tickets without cross London validity if they are cheaper" and "don't show me any tickets with cross London validity". At least until e-tickets are valid on the Tube. The present toggle doesn't offer the middle one.

"If they are cheaper" is a bit of a woolly idea, because people might have a pass, walk, cycle or use the bus across, but if it offered both and flagged it up it's easy to decide yourself.
My idea was more that I’m sure a retailer could if they wanted work out the cost of using contactless for the cross London validity and display a warning if it would be cheaper.

Support for discounts on an oyster would be nice but most people use contactless even if they have a railcard, and most passes are already supported.

While yes there is walking etc, I am solely talking about advising there is a cheaper way to pay for an itinerary which is being offered for the journey.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Ooh, good point. Are 70 Minute tickets fulfillable on paper? If not that might be an explanation.
It seems it will be possible to get one with a Maltese cross from Finsbury Park.
 

D1537

Established Member
Joined
11 Jul 2019
Messages
2,111
Location
North Yorkshire
That effectively means the train is cancelled.
No, I've seen this before. Indeed, if you look at LNER's booking site for today, there are no flex fares available from Newcastle to King's Cross on the last three LNERs of the day. Last one is the 18:29.

There are advances available at the moment, but I've seen them disappear as well (and of course if you're too close to departure time, they won't be available anyway).
 
Last edited:

johncrossley

Established Member
Joined
30 Mar 2021
Messages
4,477
Location
London
No, I've seen this before. Indeed, if you look at LNER's booking site for today, there are no flex fares available to King's Cross on the last two LNERs of the day.

If the only fare available is an Anytime fare, then the train is *effectively* cancelled, because passengers can't afford to use it.
 

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
18,162
Here's a demonstration of the issue of reservable quota on connecting trains.

Taking Thursday 11th September as a random date. There are Advance and 70-Minute Flex fares available between Edinburgh and Stevenage.

1754903943528.png

Change the destination to Knebworth and anyone wisjing to travel on the 18:30 from Edinburgh has to buy an Anytime ticket. This will be because GTR has not released reservation quota on the train between Stevenage and Knebworth.

If this sort of thing is going to have any chance of working then this sort of issue has got to be sorted. I've not checked any other dates to see the extent of the problem but I suspect any journey involving a connecting train early morning, late noght or at weekends has the potential to be an issue.

1754904060235.png
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
78,607
Location
Yorkshire
If this sort of thing is going to have any chance of working then this sort of issue has got to be sorted. I've not checked any other dates to see the extent of the problem but I suspect any journey involving a connecting train early morning, late noght or at weekends has the potential to be an issue.
Given each TOC has it's own booking horizons, own quotas etc and given the proliferation of so-called "reserveable" connecting services, there is no way this sort of issue will realistically be sorted.

The only way round it, is for people to stop using the LNER site and use sites such as the forum's site.

No wonder LNER are desperately pushing people to "book direct"; they really don't want people to realise that other sites can massively undercut their high fares. If too many people realise what's going on, it might jeopardise their fares trial.

However, as the changes are so slow, like "boiling frog syndrome", LNER will probably get away with very minimal - if any - attention from the press/media.
 

Trainbike46

Established Member
Joined
18 Sep 2021
Messages
4,383
Location
belfast
If you had tried proceeding past the initial search results screen, you'd realise that it's not the case that ticket selection is only achieved via that small link in the sidebar, and that there's a ticket information screen which also highlights the tickets from each accommodation class.

Equally, if you'd searched on e.g. an Avanti route, you would've received an upsell to standard premium in the sidebar.

Finally, there's a dedicated filter option for customers who want to avoid Advances and only look at flexible tickets. But yes, the default is going to be the cheapest option because customers don't want to needlessly pay more when trains are already as expensive as they are.
While I'm sure there are ways to improve the website further, I do think trainsplit is one of the best interfaces available currently. Personally, my preferred ones are MixingDeck and Trainsplit, both have their strengths, but I would say trainsplit is more suitable if you aren't particularly knowledgeable on ticketing matters, yet offers advanced options to use if you are. MixingDeck is good at making clear what ticket options exist, and the differences between them, but is probably slightly confusing if you don't know about them already.

LNER is just further expanding their mission to make split ticketing mandatory with all this nonsense, it is kind of funny that LNER is one of the worst retailers for buying LNER tickets now!
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
114,003
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
LNER is just further expanding their mission to make split ticketing mandatory with all this nonsense, it is kind of funny that LNER is one of the worst retailers for buying LNER tickets now!

For Advances I'm not sure splitting being the default is that bad a thing. It doesn't usually cost any more, it often costs less. And it is a genuine simplification. And Trainline do it, so the cat is out of the bag and isn't going back in, even if we happen to know there are better splitting sites.

A flexible/Advance split can also be quite handy if you're crossing London with a short journey one side and a longer one the other and can make the connection quicker than an itinerary allows.
 

Trainbike46

Established Member
Joined
18 Sep 2021
Messages
4,383
Location
belfast
For Advances I'm not sure splitting being the default is that bad a thing. It doesn't usually cost any more, it often costs less. And it is a genuine simplification. And Trainline do it, so the cat is out of the bag and isn't going back in, even if we happen to know there are better splitting sites.
I'm not saying splitting is a bad thing, I don't think it is, especially not in the UK where we have sorted out passenger rights properly for split ticketing. Many European operators could learn from that.

However, if that was LNER's aim, they would have offered splitting on their own website, but they don't. The fact is, Trainsplit and even Trainline are objectively just better retailers for journeys involving LNER now, as you can see by the Knebworth example above.
 

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
18,162
Given each TOC has it's own booking horizons, own quotas etc and given the proliferation of so-called "reserveable" connecting services, there is no way this sort of issue will realistically be sorted.
Agreed. But the press release says that LNER have worked with the TOCs offering connecting services on this...

The only way round it, is for people to stop using the LNER site and use sites such as the forum's site.
It does encourage passengers to split. The thing is, on all the other services the fares to Knebworth and Stevenage are the same, so if GTR had made reservation quota available on the 23:09 between Stevenage and Knebworth then it wouldn't be necessary to split (unless there was a favourble split point elsewhere!)

To further illustrate this point, let's look at Edinburgh to Watton at Stone. Advance and 70-Minute Flex fares are available on the 18:30 from Edinburgh. The difference here is that the connecting train from Stevenage to Watton at Stone is non-reservable.

What's so sad about this is that GTR has a very sensible policy when it comes to connecting trains, but this falls apart with if they don't make reservation quota available on their trains so that Advance tickets can be sold.

1754905222067.png
 
Last edited:

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
23,427
For Advances I'm not sure splitting being the default is that bad a thing. It doesn't usually cost any more, it often costs less.
While with LNER there is often a tier of advances which are LNER only for their point to point flows, which are cheaper than the lowest LNER & Connections fares, in many other cases the connection works out cheaper if part of a through ticket, because you otherwise don't get single leg pricing on the connection, or have to pay an anytime fare.
 

Failed Unit

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2009
Messages
9,833
Location
Central Belt
I'm not surprised by this but it's not good news. It will result in massive fares increases, especially at weekends.

A few thoughts:
  • What does the 70-minute flex apply to? Is it based on the booked start time of the journey or is it 70 minutes either side of the LNER train?
  • What if there's not a train in the next 70 minutes. Stevenage to Dunbar, for example.
  • Will GTR and other operators in zones 1-4 that offer reservations ensure that there is always quota on their trains where they provide the connecting service (they don't always do this, especially late at night). For example trains calling at Finsbury Park, Alexander Palace, Potters Bar, Hatfield, Welwyn Garden City, Welwyn North and Knebworth are reservable and included in teh expandion (and they are the fast trains at these stations). This could be an issue if GTR don't make sufficient quota available for connections into LNER services at Kings Cross or Stevenage
It is bad news, it is back to looking to see where the first place North of Edinburgh is where I can continue to use the off-peak walk on fares. It is a stupid situation, they change the rules and savvy passengers looks how they can avoid them. When will they get the message that this is not what we (their customers) want? My hunch is this change is purely as a response they feel too many people are trying to get around their fare increase, in the same way as they changes North of the border are.

Speaking with "normals" they will just head to Luton and Easy Jet. Granted they are more fixed the LNER. However Easy Jet are viewed as much cheaper, even with a taxi to the Airport. Do LNER really want to push their passengers to Easy Jet. From December 2025 I suspect I will be using Lumo much more.
 

D1537

Established Member
Joined
11 Jul 2019
Messages
2,111
Location
North Yorkshire
If the only fare available is an Anytime fare, then the train is *effectively* cancelled, because passengers can't afford to use it.
Well quite, although in this case you can, even if you want flexibility, because splitting will offer you two off-peak singles for pretty much the same price as a flex. Make it make sense, please.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
114,003
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
However, if that was LNER's aim, they would have offered splitting on their own website, but they don't. The fact is, Trainsplit and even Trainline are objectively just better retailers for journeys involving LNER now, as you can see by the Knebworth example above.

LNER's scheme certainly puts paid to the old idea that you don't pay less by using Trainline. Purchased on the day it is now the cheapest retailer (no share of savings fee).

There are other reasons to use other retailers, e.g. I use Trainsplit for the seat selector which for me is worth it costing a little more. But on pure price Trainline now wins for on the day sales.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Speaking with "normals" they will just head to Luton and Easy Jet. Granted they are more fixed the LNER. However Easy Jet are viewed as much cheaper, even with a taxi to the Airport. Do LNER really want to push their passengers to Easy Jet. From December 2025 I suspect I will be using Lumo much more.

LNER's aim, with the DfT and Treasury's support, is one thing and one thing alone - maximising revenue. If that is done by having fewer travelling, they don't care.
 

Failed Unit

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2009
Messages
9,833
Location
Central Belt
What's so sad about this is that GTR has a very sensible policy when it comes to connecting trains, but this falls apart with if they don't make reservation quota available on their trains so that Advance tickets can be sold.
I hadn't realized that was the issue, I was just looking at fares tomorrow and Easy Jet wins on price, but you will need two people traveling to beat the train on price if you need to include the taxi. No advance fare is available at WGC. This is not the first time I have seen this and normally I just split at Stevenage - no problem. However the 0558 WGC - Stevenage is a 8 coach train, which I suspect you could put the entire train load comfortably in 1 coach. So why GTR don't have quota on that train seems a mystery. However if people just split at Stevenage I guess GTR don't care.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

LNER's aim, with the DfT and Treasury's support, is one thing and one thing alone - maximising revenue. If that is done by having fewer travelling, they don't care.
It does make me wonder why they keep changing the rules to avoid the work arounds. Most people thing that it is only people like us that go looking for these work-around however it must be a significant number for LNER to make so much effort to close them up. I get the Haymarket and Manors one initially made most of the press. So of course LNER wanted to close them, however the latest round of loophole closures must be showing LNER that passengers don't want this, however that is not the response they want so they must make the data work.

I am definitely changing my view on Lumo - looks like they need longer trains, although even now you can tell then times the Lumo trains run as LNER don't like pricing their tickets too far ahead of them. £93 day single for Lumo is definitely a winner, it is also definitely directly abstracting from LNER.
 
Last edited:

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
44,456
Location
Yorks
It is bad news, it is back to looking to see where the first place North of Edinburgh is where I can continue to use the off-peak walk on fares. It is a stupid situation, they change the rules and savvy passengers looks how they can avoid them. When will they get the message that this is not what we (their customers) want? My hunch is this change is purely as a response they feel too many people are trying to get around their fare increase, in the same way as they changes North of the border are.

Speaking with "normals" they will just head to Luton and Easy Jet. Granted they are more fixed the LNER. However Easy Jet are viewed as much cheaper, even with a taxi to the Airport. Do LNER really want to push their passengers to Easy Jet. From December 2025 I suspect I will be using Lumo much more.

It's the story of this country all over really. We get a lot of flannel about being environmentally conscious, yet when push comes to shove, the train is deliberately overpriced in comparison to car and in this case plane.
 

AlterEgo

Verified Rep - Wingin' It! Paul Lucas
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
29,744
Location
LBK
As @yorkie says, I think it is obvious that LNER do not actually want to offer the 70-minute flex ticket, it's just the sop they've had to provide to justify the removal of the off-peak tickets. I am prepared to bet one shiny Manx Pound that the trial will show these tickets are "too confusing" for passengers and that they will be jettisoned.
Well, quite. They're an obviously stupid fare type which make everything more complicated.

LNER are a horrid company, truly arrogant - exactly what I said for many years would happen if people got their way and the railway was nationalised.

Their trains are mostly crap as well.
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
17,689
Location
Isle of Man
LNER are a horrid company, truly arrogant - exactly what I said for many years would happen if people got their way and the railway was nationalised.
In fairness, that's nothing to do with the ownership model and everything to do with the management. They were just as bad under Stagecoach because the same management were there under Stagecoach.

The biggest mistake the DfT made was not showing David Horne where the door was.
 

AlterEgo

Verified Rep - Wingin' It! Paul Lucas
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
29,744
Location
LBK
In fairness, that's nothing to do with the ownership model and everything to do with the management. They were just as bad under Stagecoach because the same management were there under Stagecoach.

The biggest mistake the DfT made was not showing David Horne where the door was.
This type of centralised control is entirely a symptom of nationalisation - it could never have been as strongly implemented under the franchise model.
 

Failed Unit

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2009
Messages
9,833
Location
Central Belt
Much more fixed, and EasyJet recently withdrew their flexible fares from general sale...
Very true. However if Advanced is all i have on offer then I will go for price, which makes Easy Jet (or Lumo) the winner. Lumo does of course offer a flexible fare but because of the infrequent nature of it service it is of limited value.
 

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
24,878
The biggest mistake the DfT made was not showing David Horne where the door was.
Why would they get rid of the man in charge of a successful, profitable, franchise? Regardless of what we think of this fares nonsense the franchise was handed back because Stagecoach would have been in trouble, not because VTEC (as was) was failing.
 

Failed Unit

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2009
Messages
9,833
Location
Central Belt
This type of centralised control is entirely a symptom of nationalisation - it could never have been as strongly implemented under the franchise model.
It will be interesting how far the can go to close these “loopholes”. As we get to bigger stations such as Stirling, Dundee, Falkirk and Glasgow will LNER be able to keep forcing the withdrawal the walk-up fares? Glasgow in particular will be interesting as the West Coast operators may keep its.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
44,456
Location
Yorks
This type of centralised control is entirely a symptom of nationalisation - it could never have been as strongly implemented under the franchise model.

I'm sure a government of the day could have written in swingeing fares increases to franchise agreements. It's just that we didn't have the DfT/Treasury continually bleating about revenue lost from the pandemic up until recently.
 

Top