Are there any instances where the unit number doesn't match sub class?

[trainmania100]

I think with class 73, you only have subclasses 73/0 and 73/1, and 73212/73213 obviously fall under either the /0 or /1 subclass rather than a /2 subclass.

Are there any instances with multiple units where this happens?

Eg 377201 (the original sub class of units with pantographs) is part of 377/2.

Are there any multiple unit numbers that don't have a number part of their unit sub class?

Interesting to know.

And bonus points if anyone can tell me why Electeostars didn't get a /0 sub class designation (be it 377 through to 377/7 and 387), eg no 377001, no 387001, but there is for 357001

 

[Peter Mugridge]

155 341 to 155 347 spring to mind.

Also the 153s with 153 3xx numbers, I think, are not a subclass while the renumbered 153 5xx and 153 9xx are officially a subclass.

158 701 to 158 872 are officially class 158/0... and 158 880 to 158 890 are officially 158/8s.

Class 166 are thus although the numbers are upwards from 166 201.

Class 180 and 185 are all numbered as 1xx but officially don't have a subclass.

EMUs which appear to be without a subclass but which have numbers other than 001 upwards are 318s, 323s.

Some of these probably need someone to look at the data panel to be 100% certain; I'm going by the Combined Volume here...

One that definitely mis-matches is class 360/0, which are of course 360 101 upwards.

 

[trainmania100]

Class 166 are thus although the numbers are upwards from 166 201.

Interesting, I'm guessing 166 went straight to /2 because it has similarities to 165/0 and 165/1.
Thanks

 

[stadler]

It happens with the Class 450 units. Unit numbers 450100 to 450127 are part of the 450/0 subclass. They ran out of numbers after 450001 to 450099 so it had to continue in to the 450/1 numbering even though they are still part of the 450/0 subclass.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Interesting, I'm guessing 166 went straight to /2 because it has similarities to 165/0 and 165/1.
Thanks

I think it's more they wanted to keep the last three numbers in a separate sequence rather than start at 166 001; I imagine some of the staff likely use only the last three digits most of the time.

 

[Clarence Yard]

That is the real reason. They were always 0xx, 1xx and 2xx to both management and staff.

 

[JRHurst]

I find 710/2s starting at 256 very odd, when the 378s were numbered 201...-257, so there is both a 378256 and 257, and 710256 and 257 working off Willesden.

 

[hexagon789]

I think with class 73, you only have subclasses 73/0 and 73/1, and 73212/73213 obviously fall under either the /0 or /1 subclass rather than a /2 subclass.

Are there any instances with multiple units where this happens?

Eg 377201 (the original sub class of units with pantographs) is part of 377/2.

Are there any multiple unit numbers that don't have a number part of their unit sub class?

Interesting to know.

And bonus points if anyone can tell me why Electeostars didn't get a /0 sub class designation (be it 377 through to 377/7 and 387), eg no 377001, no 387001, but there is for 357001

All 158s except the /9 subclass.

Unit numbers are 7xx, 8xx or 95x except for the ten /9 units 158901-910.

The 158s only have two subclasses 158/0 and 158/9.

 

[TRAX]

Class 317s where the units were numbered 3xx but in the /1 subclass for some reason…

 

[norbitonflyer]

I think with class 73, you only have subclasses 73/0 and 73/1, and 73212/73213 obviously fall under either the /0 or /1 subclass rather than a /2 subclass.

73/2 were a separate subclass created for those dedicated to the Gatwick Express services

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Aug 2025 ==

It happens with the Class 450 units. Unit numbers 450100 to 450127 are part of the 450/0 subclass. They ran out of numbers after 450001 to 450099 so it had to continue in to the 450/1 numbering even though they are still part of the 450/0 subclass.

This is quite normal, and is the reason that the Class 47 subclasses, for example, were 47/0, 47/3, 47/4 and 47/7 (there were nearly 300 47/0s and more than a hundred 47/4s)
Similarly classes 31/0, 31/1 and 31/4; 37/0 and 37/4

 

[Bertie the bus]

There were 142/1's which were numbered 1420xx. The regeared 142's were subsequently given the sub-class of 142/5 but only the Heaton ones were ever renumbered 1425xx and even those were eventually renumbered back to 1420xx.

 

[Class15]

I find 710/2s starting at 256 very odd, when the 378s were numbered 201...-257, so there is both a 378256 and 257, and 710256 and 257 working off Willesden.

Agreed. I don’t know why they didn’t start at 258 with the 710s. Overground frequently use the last three digits only so it’s a bit messy when that happens.

 

[Falcon1200]

EMUs which appear to be without a subclass but which have numbers other than 001 upwards are 318s, 323s.

I imagine some of the staff likely use only the last three digits most of the time.

Before mileage and maintenance records were computerised staff did indeed use the last 3 digits only. Hence the Scottish EMU fleet was 001-110 (Classes 303 and 311), 201-216 (314), 250-270 (318) and 301-322 (320).

 

[tfw756rider]

155 341 to 155 347 spring to mind.

Also the 153s with 153 3xx numbers

The Sprinter family classes (from 150/1 onwards) share the same vehicle numbering system (such as the 52xxx and 57xxx numbers of the driving vehicles), which is why, with the unit numbers, after the 150/1s being 1501xx and the 150/2s being 1502xx, the 155s are 1553xx (most of which were converted to 153s of course, hence 1533xx), the 156s are 1564xx and 1565xx (so actually also doing the "450 thing"), and the 158/0s are 1587xx and 1588xx (again, also doing the "450 thing").

As I understand it, even the Great Western Railway "hybrid" 3-car 158s numbered 1589xx are still 158/0s, but the Northern 2-car 158s numbered 1589xx actually are 158/9s.

Peter Mugridge said: 158 701 to 158 872 are officially class 158/0... and 158 880 to 158 890 are officially 158/8s.

That's a new one on me! Funnily enough, just before coming across this thread, I had just watched a video of a walkthrough of 158889 which stated in the title that its previous number was 158808.

It happens with the Class 450 units. Unit numbers 450100 to 450127 are part of the 450/0 subclass. They ran out of numbers after 450001 to 450099 so it had to continue in to the 450/1 numbering even though they are still part of the 450/0 subclass.

...or continuing into the 4501xx numbering

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Aug 2025 ==

All 158s except the /9 subclass.

Unit numbers are 7xx, 8xx or 95x except for the ten /9 units 158901-910.

The 158s only have two subclasses 158/0 and 158/9.

I thought that too, but what about 158880-158890 being 158/8s according to @Peter Mugridge?

 

[43096]

As I understand it, even the Great Western Railway "hybrid" 3-car 158s numbered 1589xx are still 158/0s, but the Northern 3-car 158s numbered 1589xx actually are 158/9s.

Northern's three car sets are 158752-759; they don't have any 3-car sets in the 1589xx range. 158901-910 are 2-car sets in class 158/9.

 

[tfw756rider]

Northern's three car sets are 158752-759; they don't have any 3-car sets in the 1589xx range. 158901-910 are 2-car sets in class 158/9.

Oops, now corrected - thanks

 

[hexagon789]

I thought that too, but what about 158880-158890 being 158/8s according to @Peter Mugridge?

As far as I'm aware there are only the /0 and /9 subclasses.

 

[JonathanH]

Agreed. I don’t know why they didn’t start at 258 with the 710s. Overground frequently use the last three digits only so it’s a bit messy when that happens.

I think there was almost a 710131 but it turned out as 710270, when the 31st unit became dual voltage. 710132-710155 were options for additional units - see https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-710-lo.145774/page-5#post-3254320

 

[Wyrleybart]

I find 710/2s starting at 256 very odd, when the 378s were numbered 201...-257, so there is both a 378256 and 257, and 710256 and 257 working off Willesden.

I dont know the answer but is this the similar protocol that London Midland nee Central used with their unit numbers ? I don't know the number ranges but the first 350/2 followed on from the last 350/1, similarly 350/3 and 350/4. This would allow a staff member to quote unit No 256 or 371.

Similarly, are the 171s and 172s numbered concurrently ? ie the first 172/3 takes the next number after the last 172/2 ? Again I dont know but say 172229 was the last two car 172 then 172330 would be the first three car

 

[43096]

I dont know the answer but is this the similar protocol that London Midland nee Central used with their unit numbers ? I don't know the number ranges but the first 350/2 followed on from the last 350/1, similarly 350/3 and 350/4. This would allow a staff member to quote unit No 256 or 371.

Not the case for the 350/4s as they were TPE units. The London Midland numbering actually went a stage further and the just last two digits could be used to identify the set:
350101-130
350231-267
350368-377

Similarly, are the 171s and 172s numbered concurrently ? ie the first 172/3 takes the next number after the last 172/2 ? Again I dont know but say 172229 was the last two car 172 then 172330 would be the first three car

The LM 172s were:
172211-222
172331-345

 

[tfw756rider]

I don't know the number ranges but the first 350/2 followed on from the last 350/1, similarly 350/3 and 350/4.

350/1, 350/2 and 350/3 have the consecutive numbering (350101-350130, 350231-350267 and 350368-350377), but 350/4 doesn't (350401-350410) - bearing in mind that 350/4 was originally on TransPennine Express.

Similarly, are the 171s and 172s numbered concurrently ? ie the first 172/3 takes the next number after the last 172/2 ? Again I dont know but say 172229 was the last two car 172 then 172330 would be the first three car

172/2 and 172/3 are numbered in different ranges, but not immediately consecutive (172211-172222 and 172331-172345).

172/0 and 172/1 aren't numbered consecutively from each other (172001-172008 and 172101-172104) - bearing in mind that they were originally on London Overground and Chiltern respectively.

The only reason I can think of for 172/2 starting at 172211 rather than 172201 is so that the last two digits of the numbers in 172/2 and 172/3 are in a separate range to those in 172/0 or 172/1, but with the number of the first unit in the subclass still ending with a 1.

As for 172/3 starting at 172331 rather than 172323, the only reason I can think of is so that the number of the first unit in the subclass ends with a 1.

As for the 171s, they're the Southern variant of the hydraulic transmission Turbostars (Classes 168, 170 and 171) - perhaps you're thinking of the ex-Chiltern 172/1s, one of the subclasses of the mechanical gearbox 172s?

(The ex-London Overground 172/0s and the ex-Chiltern 172/1s have the non-gangway-doored cabs with the last head/tail light design that resemble the late 2002 to 2005 168/170/171 cabs, not the gangway-doored cabs with the 378 lights that the 172/2s and 172/3s have.)

 

[D365]

Northern's three car sets are 158752-759; they don't have any 3-car sets in the 1589xx range. 158901-910 are 2-car sets in class 158/9.

Correct. The ten Class 158/9 units (901-910) were originally procured by WYPTE but sold to Eversholt at a later stage, along with the three Class 321/9 units. And some Class 144 centre cars?

 

[norbitonflyer]

Before mileage and maintenance records were computerised staff did indeed use the last 3 digits only. Hence the Scottish EMU fleet was 001-110 (Classes 303 and 311), 201-216 (314), 250-270 (318) and 301-322 (320).

Likewise on the Eastern
Class 306 001-092

Class 307 101-132
Class 308/1 133-165

Class 302 201-312
Class 308/2, 313-316
Class 308/4 317-321

Class 305/1 401-452
Class 308/3 453-455

Class 305/2 501-519

Class 309 601-627

Class 312/0 701-726 (GN units)
Class 312/1 781-799 (GE units)
Class 312/2 201-204 (LM units)

Class 315 801-861

(the out of sequence numbering was because classes 306 and 307 kept their numbers after conversion to AC, but were allocated AM codes (and evetually 30x classes) after the new-build classes AM2-AM5. The AM8s were built to augment existing fleets, and were given unit numbers following on from those fleets. The 312s were originally numbered 3120xx and 3121xx, but rapidly renumbered to avoid confusion with the 313s and 307s respectively

On the LMR, the AM10s started at 046, following the AM4s.
On the ScR, the AM11s started at 092, following the AM3s.

 

[43096]

Correct. The ten Class 158/9 units (901-910) were originally procured by WYPTE but sold to Eversholt at a later stage, along with the three Class 321/9 units. And some Class 144 centre cars?

All 10 of the 144 centre cars were originally bought by WYPTE and were sold to Porterbrook (who owned the rest of the 144 fleet). Likewise WYPTE also bought seven 155s (155341-347) which were also sold to Porterbrook.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

As far as I'm aware there are only the /0 and /9 subclasses.

I thought that too, but what about 158880-158890 being 158/8s according to @Peter Mugridge?

That is what is listed in the Combined Volume, which is usually extremely accurate about such things.

The 158/8 classification could possibly be a TOPS thing they have done to avoid 158 880 - 158 890 getting accidentally pinched by GWR given that both SWR and GWR 158s meet at Salisbury? Though we do of course have 158 889 from this batch being with East Midlands Railway...

I think in cases like this we really do need someone to have a close look at the relevant data panels and reporting back on this thread.

I find 710/2s starting at 256 very odd, when the 378s were numbered 201...-257, so there is both a 378256 and 257, and 710256 and 257 working off Willesden.

The 378/2s are actually numbered 378 201 to 378 234 and then 378 255 to 378 257; the gap is because the 378/1s are numbered 378 135 to 378 154; the idea being that if one sub class is converted to the other, the resulting renumbering leaves them all in a consecutive fleet still with the same last two digits as at present.

It is definitely interesting, then, that the 710s didn't start at 710 258 - though the final three 378s were a later top up order so by then the class 710 numbering die may have already been cast. Incidentally, the 710/3s follow on from the 710/2s in the same way as the 378 sequences do.

 

[YorksLad12]

Correct. The ten Class 158/9 units (901-910) were originally procured by WYPTE but sold to Eversholt at a later stage, along with the three Class 321/9 units. And some Class 144 centre cars?

I don’t recall us owning the 321s (and Wikipedia agrees they were owned by Regional Railways), but yes, we did sell the rest around 2014 to help pay for Low Moor station which more than doubled in cost.

 

[D365]

I don’t recall us owning the 321s (and Wikipedia agrees they were owned by Regional Railways), but yes, we did sell the rest around 2014 to help pay for Low Moor station which more than doubled in cost.

This website - dated 1999, and somehow still online - states that the 321/9s were under WYPTE ownership in the early days of privatisation:

These units are owned by West Yorkshire PTE and managed by Porterbrook Leasing Company. DTSO(A)-MSO-TSOL-DTSO(B). The units are 321901, 321902 and 321903. All in West Yorkshire PTE livery and allocated to Neville Hill depot.

 

[LowLevel]

The 158s I've always found interesting given that there are several distinct types of them, but they (bar the single bogged originally West Yorkshire /9s) are all counted as the same subclass and until messed about with later, number series - there could easily be several sub classes of 158!

 

[tfw756rider]

The 158s I've always found interesting given that there are several distinct types of them, but they (bar the single bogged originally West Yorkshire /9s) are all counted as the same subclass and until messed about with later, number series - there could easily be several sub classes of 158!

As I understand it, not all differences are significant enough to require a different subclass.

 

[JonathanH]

The only reason I can think of for 172/2 starting at 172211 rather than 172201 is so that the last two digits of the numbers in 172/2 and 172/3 are in a separate range to those in 172/0 or 172/1, but with the number of the first unit in the subclass still ending with a 1.

The 172/2s start at 211 because the carriage numbers 502xx / 792xx ending with 01-08 are taken by 170201-170208.

However, the carriage numbers for 172001-008 and 172101-172104 are in a completely different sequence.