Expansion of LNER 70-min flex trial area ("Simpler Fares")

[yorkie]

There will be workarounds for as long as it remains the case that the entire rail network isn't under this pricing scheme.

I note LNER claim that:

Research shows more than a third of people are put off from travelling by rail because of confusion around fares.

However, if that minority of people who are being "put off" don't want to be confused about any additional validity, they could either stick to only buying Advance or Anytime fares, or treat their (Super) Off Peak ticket as if it was only valid on train(s) stated on their itinerary, if they wish.

No-one is being forced to accept additional validity on top of what tickets allow, so it's a daft argument.

The majority of people shouldn't have to suffer the loss of such products due to a perceived requirement to avoid issuing tickets that are valid on a wide range of trains.

The real reason for abolishing (Super) Off Peak fares is that it messes with LNER's yield management and can be too good value at busy times, especially weekends. Such fares serve as a cap that LNER wish to remove.

Furthermore, a much higher proportion of people will be put off by high prices; I note LNER are silent on this matter, and indeed one of the results of these changes is that LNER can increase the cost of Advance fares beyond the cost of Super Off Peak prices at times when those tickets are valid.

LNER go on about "freedom all the way" but the irony is that they are reducing our freedoms. It's almost as if they are trolling us.

 

[Hadders]

I'm not surprised by this but it's not good news. It will result in massive fares increases, especially at weekends.

A few thoughts:

• What does the 70-minute flex apply to? Is it based on the booked start time of the journey or is it 70 minutes either side of the LNER train?
• What if there's not a train in the next 70 minutes. Stevenage to Dunbar, for example.
• Will GTR and other operators in zones 1-4 that offer reservations ensure that there is always quota on their trains where they provide the connecting service (they don't always do this, especially late at night). For example trains calling at Finsbury Park, Alexander Palace, Potters Bar, Hatfield, Welwyn Garden City, Welwyn North and Knebworth are reservable and included in teh expandion (and they are the fast trains at these stations). This could be an issue if GTR don't make sufficient quota available for connections into LNER services at Kings Cross or Stevenage

 

[Krokodil]

There will be workarounds for as long as it remains the case that the entire rail network isn't under this pricing scheme.

For a start, how many of the affected trains call at York?

 

[Sonic1234]

Such fares serve as a cap that LNER wish to remove.

Exactly. And the expansion of the scheme shows too many people are finding workarounds, or genuinely are buying through tickets (after all, for travel away from London, normal people don't live near Kings Cross)

Furthermore, a much higher proportion of people will be put off by high prices

The railway has always used this to manage capacity. People will either pay the higher price (good for LNER), drive (good for tax revenue) or not go ((Central) London and Edinburgh are thriving cities, probably best you spend your money locally anyway).

 

[YorkRailFan]

The game of Whack-a-Mole continues...

 

[A S Leib]

For a start, how many of the affected trains call at York?

Splitting at York will only mean not being able to use Lumo services from the December timetable change, and you'd need an anytime (or advance) ticket for the only LNER service which currently skips York anyway.

 

[mikeg]

A further thought occurs: LNER says people want simpler fares. I'm sure they do, but as the rise of split ticketing shows, people want cheaper fares too and if forced to choose between the two, they pick cheaper. LNER is not giving people what they want.

 

[JonathanH]

Will GTR and other operators in zones 1-4 that offer reservations ensure that there is always quota on their trains where they provide the connecting service (they don't always do this, especially late at night). For example trains calling at Finsbury Park, Alexander Palace, Potters Bar, Hatfield, Welwyn Garden City, Welwyn North and Knebworth are reservable and included in teh expandion (and they are the fast trains at these stations). This could be an issue if GTR don't make sufficient quota available for connections into LNER services at Kings Cross or Stevenage

This is a substantial issue with advance and semi-flex fares in that it is not unknown for the connection to dictate the cost of the through fare, or its availability, particularly, as you say, late at night when the quotas are not made available.

I'm not sure how this is going to be resolved other than by forcing passengers to book the long distance journey separately from the connection.

 

[Trainbike46]

Splitting at York will only mean not being able to use Lumo services from the December timetable change, and you'd need an anytime (or advance) ticket for the only LNER service which currently skips York anyway.

What is changing in December that splitting at York would be valid on Lumo trains now, but not from December?

Frankly, a ticketing option not being available on a single LNER train per day isn't really an issue.

 

[PG]

'Simpler fares' are being expanded to more stations with the stations between King's Cross and Stevenage now 'benefitting' from 'simpler' semi-flex tickets rather than the 'confusing' - and cheaper - off peak or super off peak tickets for journeys to Newcastle and further north after Sunday 7 September

LNER Simpler Fares Update – Phase 2a | LNER

www.lner.co.uk

The Simpler Fares pilot, which started in January 2024, ... During the two-year trial, ... tickets for the latest phase of the pilot are available to purchase from Sunday 10 August 2025 for travel from Sunday 7 September 2025

So with under 4 months left of the 'trial' (ahem) they've felt the need to expand the number of stations. Its almost like they've looked at the data and decided that the number of
off peak/super off peak tickets sold to/from Finsbury Park etc. would skew the desired outcome of the trial!

Anyone fancy submitting a FOI request for the trial results early next year? (though I'm sure parts will be redacted for reasons of 'commercial sensitivity'...)

 

[Huntergreed]

I would love to be able to read through the “research” that LNER have conducted which have led them to this conclusion. I can’t say I know anyone who is put off of rail travel due to ‘complex’ fares. For most who use LNER (long-distance at least) I suspect they just buy a ticket and use the trains on their itinerary which they know they are happy with! I’ve also not heard of anyone who has participated in said ‘research’, so I do wonder how it has been conducted.

I find it quite funny that they claim ‘simplification’ as the primary purpose for this. The new 70-minute tickets offer far more complexity. It’s often cheaper to deliberately book the ‘wrong’ train to gain access to the cheaper semi-flex, avoiding the ludicrous anytime fares which they are hoping people will buy.

For example, if I wanted to travel on the 07:00 service tomorrow morning from King’s Cross to Edinburgh and book using the LNER website, the cheapest way to do so is to book the 08:00 and then select the semi-flex (£172.80) to avoid having to buy the £204.80 anytime fare. Hardly ‘simple’, actually more complex than it was before.

I also feel the question has to be asked - why isn’t this valid semi-flex being shown for these trains as it is the cheapest available fare? I’m sure LNER wouldn’t want to deliberately put people off using these trains…

I would have far more respect for LNER if they were honest and actually admitted this was an exercise in yield management and increasing revenue, as opposed to putting out this ludicrous PR drivel about simplicity and claiming this is what customers ‘want’. The fact people are continuing to buy tickets which avoid this absurd scheme is clear evidence that people are definitely not ‘wanting’ this no sense.

Makes me very glad (for now) that I use the WCML mainly and not the ECML.

 

[A S Leib]

What is changing in December that splitting at York would be valid on Lumo trains now, but not from December?

Frankly, a ticketing option not being available on a single LNER train per day isn't really an issue.

I phrased it slightly poorly; I mean that from December, Lumo will be the only services left for which splitting at York would render a ticket invalid.

 

[Starmill]

• What does the 70-minute flex apply to? Is it based on the booked start time of the journey or is it 70 minutes either side of the LNER train?
• What if there's not a train in the next 70 minutes. Stevenage to Dunbar, for example.

The same as the current offer, for example Reston to London. You don't get anything in return for the extra money you spend on a 70 minute fixed ticket in some cases.

Will GTR and other operators in zones 1-4 that offer reservations ensure that there is always quota on their trains where they provide the connecting service (they don't always do this, especially late at night). For example trains calling at Finsbury Park, Alexander Palace, Potters Bar, Hatfield, Welwyn Garden City, Welwyn North and Knebworth are reservable and included in teh expandion (and they are the fast trains at these stations). This could be an issue if GTR don't make sufficient quota available for connections into LNER services at Kings Cross or Stevenage

This is also going to be the same as it is now. There are large numbers of cases where you can't get an Advance ticket, but you could do if you split.

 

[Travelmonkey]

They are still pushing the charade, no wonder people (myself including) are defecting to the open acess offerings, another passengers come last situation,

 

[Krokodil]

Splitting at York will only mean not being able to use Lumo services from the December timetable change, and you'd need an anytime (or advance) ticket for the only LNER service which currently skips York anyway.

Thought so. This is utterly pointless then because pretty much anyone will be buying their tickets from somewhere that will suggest splits.

 

[redreni]

Just announced by LNER

'Simpler fares' are being expanded to more stations with the stations between King's Cross and Stevenage now 'benefitting' from 'simpler' semi-flex tickets rather than the 'confusing' - and cheaper - off peak or super off peak tickets for journeys to Newcastle and further north after Sunday 7 September

While they do not 'benefit' from the new Semi-Flex tickets, it also looks like any national rail station within Zones 1-4 will have their off-peak and super off-peak tickets removed for journeys to Newcastle and further north at the same time.

LNER Simpler Fares Update – Phase 2a | LNER

www.lner.co.uk

Thanks for posting. While the announcement is in its entirety fundamentally dishonest, I thought it might be worth highlighting in red the bits I consider to be direct - and in all probability provable with a few well-directed FOI requests - lies. Basically anything to do with the purpose of the reforms, where they simply cannot bring themselves to be truthful.

The bits that convey the detail, by contrast, have been carefully crafted to omit the truth without directly lying. Maybe I'm feeling charitable but I've not accused them of directly lying when they say they want to bring in the new stations to give them better and more complete data, rather than just because they don't like the idea of a few people in the know buying loophole fares. There may be a bit of both, depending on how much use of the fares from local stations in and around London is being made.

Further stations will be included in the next planned phase of a pilot by LNER to make buying train tickets simpler for customers travelling long distances by rail.

The Simpler Fares pilot, which started in January 2024, sees often-complicated Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak fares removed and the introduction of a new, widely available Semi-Flexible fare.
Research shows more than a third of people are put off from travelling by rail because of confusion around fares. To help make customer journeys simpler, the Simpler Fares pilot includes three fares in both First Class and Standard:

• Fixed: The best value fares, only valid for the booked service(s) stated on the ticket.
• Semi-Flexible: A new ‘70min Flex’ fare allowing customers to travel as booked or start their journey up to 70 minutes earlier or later, travelling with LNER for the main leg of their journey. The 70min Flex may not always be shown alongside the Fixed fare.
• Fully Flexible: Valid for travel at any time of day.

Originally introduced for travel between London King’s Cross and Newcastle, Berwick-upon-Tweed, and Edinburgh, the pilot was extended in August 2024 to include smaller, intermediate stations, served by other train operators such as Northern, CrossCountry, and TransPennine Express, making fares simplification a reality for more journeys and customers.
Now, in the planned next stage of the pilot, 27 stations around London will be added, including stations between London King’s Cross and Stevenage. As part of this planned stage, LNER has been working with Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR) and Transport for London (TfL) to make sure that the new Semi-Flexible fare is available for connections using their services where applicable.
This means that the pilot fares will now be available for most journeys between the stations in the north from previous phases, including Newcastle, Berwick-upon-Tweed, Edinburgh, and surrounding areas, and the stations in the south introduced in this latest phase, where an LNER service is the main part of a journey.
Other journeys between origin or destination stations not included in the pilot will see no changes made to the ticket types available.
This important next step is designed to more closely resemble a vision for long distance fares simplification and enables LNER to capture much richer learnings to consider for the future.
During the two-year trial, LNER is continuing to gather and review feedback from customers and industry partners to understand more about how the changes are working for customers, while ensuring a wide range of affordable tickets are available across the pilot routes.
Simpler Fares tickets for the latest phase of the pilot are available to purchase from Sunday 10 August 2025 for travel from Sunday 7 September 2025.

 

[Haywain]

I thought it might be worth highlighting in red the bits I consider to be direct - and in all probability provable with a few well-directed FOI requests - lies. Basically anything to do with the purpose of the reforms, where they simply cannot bring themselves to be truthful.

But you have highlighted some things that are quite provably not lies. To say that the Fixed are the best value fares is true in the context f the three fare types being offered, for example. Your opinion is different, but that is in a different context.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But you have highlighted some things that are quite provably not lies. To say that the Fixed are the best value fares is true in the context f the three fare types being offered, for example. Your opinion is different, but that is in a different context.

They're the cheapest, they may not be the best value depending on the passenger's requirements.

An interesting development here is that they are specifically using the phrase "long distance" which hasn't been used in this trial before. Is this a suggestion that they might have accepted that the concept wouldn't work for shorter journeys like Leeds, Doncaster etc, perhaps?

 

[Hadders]

The terms and conditions of the 70-minute flex do not appear simple...

If you choose to exercise the Flex option not only do you have to depart within 70 minutes of the original train, you must also arrive within 180 minutes of the original arrival time. So now passengers have to look up departure and arrival times to make sure their ticket is valid?

70min Flex | National Rail

Looking for 70min Flex? A portal into UK rail travel, including information on ticket purchase and promotions, train times and delays, and more.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

Terms and Conditions​

Description​

‘70min Flex’ fares are Single (one-way) tickets offering great value for money on many longer distance journeys.
Customers must book in advance of travel and fares are sold in limited numbers subject to availability.
The further ahead the customer purchases these tickets, the cheaper the fares will typically be.
Customers can mix and match ‘70min Flex’ fares or combine with other Single fares such as ‘Anytime’ or ‘Advance’ to carry out a return journey.
Customers can travel according to the booked itinerary but are also permitted to travel on alternative services to carry out the same journey within the time period defined by the ticket.

Single or Return​

Single

Operator​

• LNER

Standard Class Ticket Code​

DMA, DMB, DMC, DMD, DME, DMF, DMG, DMH, DMI, DMJ, DMK, DML, DMM, DMN, DMO, DMP, DMQ, DMR, DMS, DMT, DMU, DMV, DMW, DMX, DMY, DZN & DZM

Buying Tickets - where, when and how to buy​

Availability​

Purchase Location​

‘70min Flex’ fares are available at any National Rail staffed ticket office, train company telesales office, online via most train company and third party websites, and selected ticket vending machines and rail appointed travel agents.
Please note that customers who do not purchase online and fulfil to eTicket will not be able to digitally amend their booking. These customers may be able to reserve a seat on alternative services via the LNER seat reservation tool or by otherwise getting in touch with LNER, subject to availability.
These fares are not available on-board either for current or for future travel.

Purchase Availability​

Tickets are valid only on the date and train service(s) shown on the ticket(s) or alternative services within the time period defined around the original booked itinerary. Where applicable, valid only for travel in the class shown on the ticket(s).

Pre-booking Requirement​

Tickets must be purchased in advance of travel and are subject to availability. Tickets are generally available up to 12 weeks before travel.

Reservations Compulsory​

Yes

Discounts​

Children​

Yes

Railcards​

Yes

Ticket Validity - days, times and break of journey​

General Conditions​

Customers may use the connecting services of other operators including ScotRail, CrossCountry, Northern, TransPennine Express and Tyne & Wear Metro, where applicable.
Tickets are not valid with Lumo, Grand Central, Hull Trains or Avanti West Coast.
Customers must travel in the Class shown on the ticket and should sit in their reserved seat(s) where these have been provided.
If delays occur while travelling and a connecting service is missed as a result, customers will be permitted to travel via the next available service to complete their journey using the same operator(s).

Special conditions applicable to the network area​

Should a customer wish to make use of the flexibility available, they are advised to contact the retailer to amend the booking and obtain seat reservations for the new travel itinerary. At present, only tickets purchased online via the LNER website and App can be digitally amended.
Customers are not required to amend their booking to make use of the flexibility included in the ticket. However, the customer cannot be guaranteed a seat on any alternative services if they do not formally amend their booking.
Customers who have booked through retailers other than LNER may use the LNER seat reservation tool to reserve a seat on any valid alternative services.
No additional fare is due where the customer amends their booking and plans their journey within the defined time period surrounding the original booked itinerary. No fees are payable to make or amend any seat reservations.
There is no limitation on the number of times a customer can amend their booking for travel within the defined period of flexibility provided by the original ticket.
Customers who exercise this flexibility at short notice are advised to reserve a seat online for their new services where possible, subject to availability.

Outward Journey​

Day Of Travel​

‘70min Flex’ fares are valid only on the date shown on the ticket and within a fixed time period defined around the original booked itinerary.

Time Of Travel​

Customers can either travel as booked, or draw on the freedom to start the journey up to 70 minutes earlier or later than originally scheduled when they first purchased the ticket.
If travelling on alternative trains, the new scheduled arrival time must be within three hours of the original scheduled arrival time. A customer’s new travel itinerary may be quicker or slower than the one booked.
Customers may not use this product as a rover ticket upon departure from their origin station.

Break Of Journey​

Customers must not break their journey, i.e. they may not start, break/resume, or end their journey at any intermediate station en route. Customers risk being denied entry or exit at those stations or being charged for a new ticket.
Customers are permitted to interchange at intermediate stations to/from valid connecting services.

Return Journey​

Day Of Travel​

Not applicable.

Time Of Travel​

Not applicable.

Break Of Journey​

Not applicable.

Refunds And Charges​

Refunds​

‘70min Flex’ fares are non-refundable.
However, if booked services are cancelled or retimed and as a result the customer decides not to travel, a refund may be offered on completely unused tickets and the customer would not be charged any administration fee.
Where an excess fare has been paid up to the price of a flexible ticket, the excess fare paid varies the terms under which the passenger can travel, but it does not alter the refund terms of the original ticket.

Changes To Travel Plans​

Customers have the ability to change the date or time of travel, beyond the level of flexibility provided by the ticket, but this must be prior to expiry of the booked departure validity window. After this, the ticket has no value and a new one must be purchased. The new journey must include the same origin and destination stations, as well as the same route and operator conditions. Customers will need to present the ticket(s) and reservation(s) when they request a change.
Any difference in fare plus an administration fee will be payable prior to travel, though there may be times where the administration fee does not apply. If the new travel itinerary has a cheaper fare available, the difference will not be refunded.
Changes to tickets cannot be made on-board the train. If customers board a train without a ticket valid for that service, a new ticket or excess fare must be purchased.

 

[Haywain]

They're the cheapest, they may not be the best value depending on the passenger's requirements.

As stated, they are the best value in the context of the three options being offered. Of course other, completely different fares outside of the trial may be seen as being better value, but that does not make the statement a lie. And, to be clear, I am not defending the trial or the spin, but simply pointing out that disagreeing with something does not make it a lie.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As stated, they are the best value in the context of the three options being offered.

Again, that depends on one's needs. The Anytime is fairly unlikely to be best value, but faced with a need for some flexibility the 70 minute ticket may be.

Best value does not necessarily mean cheapest. Often it doesn't; rock bottom value supermarket products are often so poor quality that the next product up represents better value.

Value is fairly qualitative, but essentially is derived from a cost benefit ratio. The best value item for a given consumer is the one that maximises that ratio in favour of benefit.

It's not necessarily a lie, but it is a very basic and rather poor understanding of the term "value".

 

[Haywain]

It's not necessarily a lie,

Which is the point I was making.

 

[Iskra]

I bet the Open Access operators are rubbing their hands with glee.

These moves must lose LNER more than they gain.

 

[Haywain]

I bet the Open Access operators are rubbing their hands with glee.

There is only one open access operator that stands to benefit from this, and that is Lumo.

These moves must lose LNER more than they gain.

I think that's very unlikely. The difference between them and Lumo in the number of trains they run means Lumo can't gain much and any passengers lost by LNER will probably be offset by the higher fares.

 

[Iskra]

There is only one open access operator that stands to benefit from this, and that is Lumo.

I think that's very unlikely. The difference between them and Lumo in the number of trains they run means Lumo can't gain much and any passengers lost by LNER will probably be offset by the higher fares.

Moves, plural. As in the entire series of events.

Have Avanti gained any passengers London-Edinburgh and vice versa does anyone know?

 

[Adam Williams]

So now passengers have to look up departure and arrival times to make sure their ticket is valid?

Some retailers will have tried to put it on the E-Ticket to assist, but yes - in most cases it will still need cross-checking when looking at alternative itineraries. Unfortunately the 70 minute flex fares have been "bodged" into the fares data in much the same way as e.g. Standard Premium and conditions now need to be hardcoded on a per-TOC basis because there is no real machine-readable data to underpin all of this "simplification". The forum ticketing site will, for example [1]

I would have hoped if it becomes more of a cross-industry thing, PMS would gain proper support for these sorts of tickets to enable standard use-cases like "what other services can I use if I hold a 70min flex for the 10:06 arriving at 15:08" to be delivered without needing to write swathes of bespoke logic.


[1]

 

[Starmill]

They're the cheapest, they may not be the best value depending on the passenger's requirements.

They're not always the cheapest. The 70 min fixed for the next / previous train is frequently cheapest.

 

[ainsworth74]

Unfortunately the 70 minute flex fares have been "bodged" into the fares data in much the same way as e.g. Standard Premium and conditions now need to be hardcoded on a per-TOC basis because there is no real machine-readable data to underpin all of this "simplification".

The industry bodging (some might say abusing) its fares data systems to make something work (in a manner of speaking) rather than trying to do things properly? Say it ain't so

 

[Starmill]

Moves, plural. As in the entire series of events.

Have Avanti gained any passengers London-Edinburgh and vice versa does anyone know?

Avanti are probably not going to let that slip if they have, but also they're probably not at all bothered either way given their journey times will never be competitive with Lumo and Lumo are nearly always cheaper (though they may be slightly more likely to be full).

However, Lumo have put their Anytime single up now to be just below where the inflation-adjusted Super Off Peak Single would have been. The old SSS adjusted for inflation would be approximately £95. The Lumo single is £93.

 

[yorkie]

I wonder how LNER will react if/when retailers start issuing pre-flexed tickets for the "wrong" train?


(Image shows the 0704 Newcastle to London fast train priced at £161.40 for the cheapest Standard fixed fare, while a 70 min flex fare for the 0655 is 'only' £128.80)

I suspect that if/when LNER are able to successfully abolish (Super) Off Peak from their entire network, their next step would be to ask DfT for 70 min flex to be abolished, to prevent that.

Make no mistake, this is the thin edge of the wedge, as DfT/LNER both aim to reduce our freedoms, increase the price we are paying, and maximise yields by having a smaller number of passengers paying higher fares.