Bus drivers salary.

[strange6]

At the end of the day you're paid according to how much the employer thinks you're worth and, to some extent, the prevailing market conditions of the day.

 

[Spaceflower]

My brother was a bus driver. the wages are poor and working days long. on top of that, the shift patterns are horrendous

 

[Striker]

My brother was a bus driver. the wages are poor and working days long. on top of that, the shift patterns are horrendous

I'm sure nobody would disagree with that. Sadly that doesn't mean the job deserves anything more than a basic wage. You get paid on your skill level and how many people could replace you.

 

[Drsatan]

At the end of the day you're paid according to how much the employer thinks you're worth and, to some extent, the prevailing market conditions of the day.

That would explain why, to give an example a friend of mine has used, why computer programmers are paid more than nurses. Logically, the work of a nurse is of far more value than a computer programmer, since the nurse saves lives whereas ultimately, a programmer's job is to fiddle with C++, Java, and other programming languages. However, computer programmers are far more in demand than nurses, hence why they're paid far more.


Interestingly, in the USSR, trolleybus drivers were paid the same salary as surgeons, because driving a trolleybus was deemed to be of equal value to performing operations on a patient. But this was the USSR which didn't believe in capitalist theories of labour value.

 

[notadriver]

There are lots of things I haven't done but I can tell they're not particularly hard.

Would you put HGV 1 drivers and bus drivers in a similar category in terms of pay and difficulty ?

 

[Striker]

Would you put HGV 1 drivers and bus drivers in a similar category in terms of pay and difficulty ?

It depends on what the HGV drivers are driving, where they're delivering, what they're carrying etc. On the whole I don't think there is much difference between bus drivers and HGV drivers though.

 

[strange6]

That would explain why, to give an example a friend of mine has used, why computer programmers are paid more than nurses. Logically, the work of a nurse is of far more value than a computer programmer, since the nurse saves lives whereas ultimately, a programmer's job is to fiddle with C++, Java, and other programming languages. However, computer programmers are far more in demand than nurses, hence why they're paid far more.


Interestingly, in the USSR, trolleybus drivers were paid the same salary as surgeons, because driving a trolleybus was deemed to be of equal value to performing operations on a patient. But this was the USSR which didn't believe in capitalist theories of labour value.

Computer people generally make their company a lot of money as well. nurses do not

 

[northwichcat]

Agreed. It isn't a graduate job. I applied for an undergraduate 1-year placement in ''the North'' that paid more than that.

From my experience, most graduate schemes _do_ pay a salary of around £25k. In the public transport sector: FirstGroup, TfL, Stagecoach and Network Rail pay somewhere around this, and that is only the companies which I have thought off the top of my head who offer a graduate scheme.

While that job I posted could be done by a non-graduate there are similar paid jobs that require skills that will only have been picked up through a degree or a few years in a similar role.

A 'graduate scheme' isn't the same as a 'graduate level job.' Graduate schemes are what big companies use to employ multiple graduates at good rates e.g. Santander up to £25k, PwC up to 20k and Bank of England up to 29k.

Graduate level jobs are what a small company would use to employ someone as replacement for someone as replacement for an existing employee e.g. a graduate level C# programmer in Manchester advertised in Metro offering £18k or a graduate level marketing assistant offering £16k.

Also some graduate jobs require 40 or even 42.5 hour weeks which compared to the upper £11/hour for a bus driver quoted would be equivalent to a bus driver getting £22,880 or £24,310, so I stand by my point about £11 an hour being a very good wage for someone who drives buses.

I'm pretty sure most bus drivers can get free transport to and from work which is easily equivalent to an additional £1,000 per annum.

 

[notadriver]

It depends on what the HGV drivers are driving, where they're delivering, what they're carrying etc. On the whole I don't think there is much difference between bus drivers and HGV drivers though.

That National Statistics links seems to agree with you and classifies HGV and Bus (PSV) drivers in the same category.

What I found interesting was that Transport Associate Professionals category encompasses Air traffic controllers, Aircraft pilots and engineers as well as train drivers.

 

[Striker]

That National Statistics links seems to agree with you and classifies HGV and Bus (PSV) drivers in the same category.

What I found interesting was that Transport Associate Professionals category encompasses Air traffic controllers, Aircraft pilots and engineers as well as train drivers.

I'm an air traffic controller. The very high failure rate for selection and the subsequent training means salaries are extremely high and will remain so. There is a shortage of controllers. Pilots arguably have to be just as skilled as a controller and maybe even more skilled, yet their salaries are surprisingly low. There is a massive over supply of pilots. Simple supply and demand.

 

[notadriver]

I'm an air traffic controller. The very high failure rate for selection and the subsequent training means salaries are extremely high and will remain so. There is a shortage of controllers. Pilots arguably have to be just as skilled as a controller and maybe even more skilled, yet their salaries are surprisingly low. There is a massive over supply of pilots. Simple supply and demand.

Agreed with your profession Striker but with pilots it does seem to be variable. In any case according to that list the mean salary was 68k. Maybe your 18k figure is for someone entering the industry?

As for supply and demand, everyone seems to want to be a train driver so by that measure their salaries should be low too?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Agreed with your profession Striker but with pilots it does seem to be variable. In any case according to that list the mean salary was 68k. Maybe your 18k figure is for someone entering the industry?

As for supply and demand, everyone seems to want to be a train driver so by that measure their salaries should be low too?

Striker can confirm, but ATC's earn from about 35k - 90k depending on location and grade.

 

[S19]

I can't see why people complain about how little they get paid.

You choose to apply for a job, if it's peanuts to you then apply for a higher paid one or get new skills to enable you to earn a good salary.

It's not like you are forced to take a £9 an hour job!

 

[Striker]

Agreed with your profession Striker but with pilots it does seem to be variable. In any case according to that list the mean salary was 68k. Maybe your 18k figure is for someone entering the industry?

As for supply and demand, everyone seems to want to be a train driver so by that measure their salaries should be low too?

18K is indeed for an entry level pilot, BUT, that does not necessarily mean they're flying small turboprops. On top of that the vast majority of pilots have to pay for their training which averages around 80K. So they're getting a relatively small salary for the responsibility they have whilst also trying to pay off their debt. And that's in an industry which has a massive over supply of pilots. In America the situation is even worse with terribly long hours and pilots having to be away from home for long periods of time.

However, 20 years into the job and being pilot in command on long haul, you can rake in some serious money (over 100K).

I can't comment on the train driver situation as I don't know enough about it.

Striker can confirm, but ATC's earn from about 35k - 90k depending on location and grade.

That is about right for the UK I believe but I'm not certain as I work in Europe. An average controller working for NATS in the UK in the en-route centre in Swanwick will be on about 60-70K. In Europe salaries are well into six figures.

 

[BestWestern]

Exactly. I have what a lot of people would consider a hard job, but because I am trained, have lots of experience, and ultimately have the ability to DO the job I find it, most of the time, quite mundane.

When I was a student I used to drive vans. Now, trying to find an address you don't know and have never been to before (before sat nav), with an A to Z in one hand, a pork pie in the other, with a mobile ringing in your trouser pocket which is most likely your boss asking where you are with the late delivery, in the pouring rain, at night....that's hard.

However, I fail to see where driving a bus could be described as particularly "hard" and therefore demands a particularly high wage.

It's always a shame when the inevitable 'Troll' appears, more often than not trying to degrade a profession of which they have no actual knowledge or experience. Your first comment about the minimum wage childish, inflamatory and needless, your recent suggestion that driving a white van is somehow more difficult than a 12 ton bus full of passengers simply goes to demonstrate your 'armchair critic' attributes.

I have worked as a bus driver, within a busy inner-city environment, and I can inform you - note, that is inform rather than idly speculate - that it is challenging, tiring and needs considerable skill. Much the same as driving any very large vehicle through tight roads choked with traffic and illegally parked/driven vehicles, and so on. Add to that the pedestrians in a City Centre who fail to see a bus 10 feet away as they step off the kerb. Add to that 50 or so unrestrained passengers, who will leave their seats and hurtle through the bus and sustain injury if you hit the brakes too hard. Add to that a tight, often unrealistically so, schedule. Add to that the early/late shifts. Add to that the need to catch up on any lost time, without breaking the traffic laws. Add to that the usual challenges of dealing with the public, including the ever-present risk of assault. The list goes on.

One of my former colleagues had a passenger die on her bus, after she was forced to hit the brakes due to the actions of a motorist. The passenger, an elderly man, left his seat and struck his head, and died shortly afterwards. I've had several collisions with clueless drivers, one of which only narrowly missed causing himself serious injury, I've also arrived at the scene of a fatal hit and run and had to do my bit, as well as being threatened with a knife, and so on. So no, minimum wage is not appropriate.

Perhaps in future you might find it preferable to walk home, rather than have to lower yourself sufficiently to board a bus. Your driver might very well prefer that too.

 

[Striker]

It's always a shame when the inevitable 'Troll'

Hmm, I'm not a troll, and just because I disagree with your biased opinion it doesn't make me one. The free market seems to agree with me as bus drivers are not particularly well paid.

more often than not trying to degrade a profession

Where have I degraded your profession? I don't think it's deserving of a high wage. Sorry if you don't agree but that's my opinion.

of which they have no actual knowledge or experience.

Erm, I'm an intelligent person who knows full well what bus driving entails. None of what you described to me as being part and parcel of bus driving came as a surprise to me. It's patently obvious to anybody who walks around with their eyes open that bus drivers will have to deal with poor drivers, members of the public, attackers etc, but then there are many, many jobs that also have the same problems who get a poor salary. Sadly for you, bus driving is not particularly skilled as much as you would like it to be, and it doesn't demand a high wage IMHO. All of the things you describe as being part and parcel of the job are risks faced by EVERYBODY, and they're not getting paid for it! As much as you could get attacked driving a bus, another passenger could get attacked sitting in the bus, and they're not protected by screens that many bus drivers are nowadays. Somebody working in a shop late at night is at risk of being attacked. Are you saying they should be paid a mighty salary?

your recent suggestion that driving a white van is somehow more difficult than a 12 ton bus full of passengers simply goes to demonstrate your 'armchair critic' attributes.

I never mentioned the colour of the van (nice try to attempt to undermine my point by assuming it was a "white van" and all the connotations that carries) but it was significantly larger (7.5 tonne), albeit not as big as a bus, I agree. BUT, where did I say it was "harder" than driving a bus?

I was using the point that despite now having what is considered one of the hardest jobs in the world (air traffic controller in one of the busiest pieces of airspace in the world), I still consider the scenario of driving the wagon in the rain at night etc. as being particularly challenging. I still got 4 Pounds an hour though and I don't think I stood much chance of getting paid any more.

I have worked as a bus driver, within a busy inner-city environment,

Lots of people have driving jobs in busy inner-city environments.

that it is challenging, tiring and needs considerable skill. Much the same as driving any very large vehicle through tight roads choked with traffic and illegally parked/driven vehicles, and so on.

Again, this is the same as many driving jobs including me driving my "van". People commute every day in traffic like this and don't get paid for it. If you think you deserve a higher wage because your job is a bit more difficult then good luck. It's called "work" and everybody's job has certain aspects to them that they'd rather weren't there.

Add to that the pedestrians in a City Centre who fail to see a bus 10 feet away as they step off the kerb. Add to that 50 or so unrestrained passengers, who will leave their seats and hurtle through the bus and sustain injury if you hit the brakes too hard.

Then don't hit the brakes too hard! It's quite simple. You make it sound so difficult. It's called driving a bus and thousands of people seem capable of doing this everyday.

Add to that a tight, often unrealistically so, schedule. Add to that the early/late shifts.

Good grief. Many jobs entail working shifts.

Add to that the need to catch up on any lost time, without breaking the traffic laws. Add to that the usual challenges of dealing with the public, including the ever-present risk of assault. The list goes on.

Many, many jobs include the ever-present risk of assault. Shopkeepers. Policemen/women. Nurses. Pub staff. It's called living in the real world.

One of my former colleagues had a passenger die on her bus, after she was forced to hit the brakes due to the actions of a motorist. The passenger, an elderly man, left his seat and struck his head, and died shortly afterwards.

I don't understand why this means you should get paid more?

I've also arrived at the scene of a fatal hit and run and had to do my bit, as well as being threatened with a knife, and so on.

So have people just minding their own business in the street. People are threatened with knives whilst walking home from work. People who work in shops are threatened with knives. Why do you think you're different because you happen to drive a bus?

 

[nctx]

One reason why bus drivers are on low pay is the Bus companies pay for there training, also they cannot earn more than the Transport Manager and they get £18000 upwards.

Driver's for Nottingham City Transport can get £10p/h after a few years, you get less if you drive a Solo.

Many ex Nottingham City Transport and Trent , go on to work for Premiere who can offer more flexible hours and different types of work eg Coaches etc

Drivers on rail replacement work can earn £12p/h plus in London.

 

[BestWestern]

At the end of the day you're paid according to how much the employer thinks you're worth and, to some extent, the prevailing market conditions of the day.

That isn't really true, certainly not in this case. If you have an 'executive' job of some type, or you work in a field of specialist expertise, an employer may chose to pay you depending on what they feel you are 'worth'. However, in a 'mass market' arena, such as the bus industry, what your employer will pay you is the least that they can get away with.

The 'worth' of a bus driver is substantial, since the bus will not be going very far at all without one. But, by supressing the working conditions, driver morale and career prospects of staff as far as reasonably possible, bus industry employers have been able to keep pay at artificially low levels for years. If the major bus operators were to publish their staff turnover figures, most people would be shocked. In many depots, turnover is at levels which would horrify the bosses in any other industry. But, because new drivers can be easily recruited and trained up in a fairly short time, the employers in this case simply don't care. There is a clearly apparent glass ceiling for drivers, whereby the best that can be hoped for is a relatively minor supervisory role such as 'shift manager', controller or inspector. The chances of ever getting anywhere near a proper managerial role are practically nil, companies instead parachuting in the inevitable 'Graduate Trainee' fodder at minimal expense, and then training them to drive a bus and actually do the job of their staff as some sort of afterthought.

This is the attitude that many PCV drivers are up against, and explains why the wages remain so low; it certainly has nothing at all to do with the job being easy.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hmm, I'm not a troll, and just because I disagree with your biased opinion it doesn't make me one. The free market seems to agree with me as bus drivers are not particularly well paid......

- Full post mercifully not quoted due to risk of losing the will to live.... :roll: -

You are of course very welcome to your slightly bitter tasting view of the world, whilst you sit in your air-conditioned office watching your computer screens. My missus knows an air-traffic controller, I have to say I was less impressed upon meeting her than I expected to be...hmm. I wonder who you think should be paid the greater amount, you or the pilot flying the plane?! Who is the 'most important' I wonder? I have no doubt you spend many hours musing over it.

Of course, in my view your job is completely worthless and I think that a computer should be employed to do it, etc etc etc.....

Allow me, if I may, to state that I have no interest whatsoever in hijacking a sensible thread and turning it into a childish playground tussle, as so often happens; you have your view, I have mine. I think most people tend to agree that the job in question is underpaid and thankless, and I would go with that view also. Your view is different, such is life. As it so turns out, neither of us is likely to have any bearing on the matter, so a public dispute is a tad pointless. Shall we leave it there?!

 

[notadriver]

Just a couple of thoughts :

It seems bus driving in major cities pays much better and especially in London where hourly rates can be as high as £14 an hour for a driving during the day. Intercity scheduled coach work never seems to pay as well - maybe that sort of work is easier?

I'm not sure how air traffic control could be computerised - as instructions are given by a Human being at present - maybe Striker could elaborate.

 

[90019]

maybe Striker could elaborate.

I doubt it

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Bus drivers also have to handle cash and deal with the public (some of them drunk and/or violent), which train conductors do but drivers generally don't.

Let us not forget that in the old days, there was always a driver and a conductor on a bus. By removing conductors and adding their responsibities for fare collection onto the bus driver, the cost overhead for wages to the bus operators was dramatically reduced at that time.

 

[Class2ldn]

Well i have done both and in my opinion it sometimes takes more concentration on the road then the rails. I have driven in London and they are on around 14ph. I have also driven for national express and i can honestly say i feel i had to concentrate more driving for 4h30 minutes non stop with only an hours break and then 4h30 back then i have ever needed to on the train. Of course our job on the train is important and holds alot of responsibility but i believe that bus/coach drivers deserve more. Bus drivers money is going up but the most national express are on afaik is 10.36 ph and that's talking to an old colleague at crawley. Motorway driving can be tiring and boring and the risks of accidents are greatly increased. On the London buses after ten it should be danger money. I can't tell you how many times i have had bottles thrown, been spat at, i have been shot at and had a knife produced so in my opinion especially in London they deserve alot more although like i say its getting alot better. Think there on 18ph overtime.

 

[142094]

Let us not forget that in the old days, there was always a driver and a conductor on a bus. By removing conductors and adding their responsibities for fare collection onto the bus driver, the cost overhead for wages to the bus operators was dramatically reduced at that time.

If anyone has been on the FTR in places like York or Leeds, they'll know that conductors had to be introduced due to the fact the automatic ticket machine used to break down repeatedly.

 

[notadriver]

Well i have done both and in my opinion it sometimes takes more concentration on the road then the rails. I have driven in London and they are on around 14ph. I have also driven for national express and i can honestly say i feel i had to concentrate more driving for 4h30 minutes non stop with only an hours break and then 4h30 back then i have ever needed to on the train. Of course our job on the train is important and holds alot of responsibility but i believe that bus/coach drivers deserve more. Bus drivers money is going up but the most national express are on afaik is 10.36 ph and that's talking to an old colleague at crawley. Motorway driving can be tiring and boring and the risks of accidents are greatly increased. On the London buses after ten it should be danger money. I can't tell you how many times i have had bottles thrown, been spat at, i have been shot at and had a knife produced so in my opinion especially in London they deserve alot more although like i say its getting alot better. Think there on 18ph overtime.

We shouldn't turn this into a bus vs train drivers debate. Whilst I agree bus drivers should be paid more, you would have to do something very bad to get your taken off the road on a bus or coach.

 

[Class2ldn]

Im not saying bus drivers should get the same as train drivers but i think people underestimate what it takes to be a professional driver. Il be the first to admit i have taken it for granted and some bus drivers are beyond a joke but i really enjoyed the job and although Im now a train driver i still think the bus drivers should be on more. Train driving is not really paid according to living whereas jobs on the road are. London get the most, outer areas get less. Ok on the trains you get a London allowance but overall the basic salaries across the country are similar or vary because of the work ie highspeed, suburban etc. I must say if national express paid the same as the trains or near i wouldn't be a train driver.

 

[notadriver]

As someone else said one of the factors affecting pay is how easily and quickly it is to replace you.

 

[Deerfold]

Just a couple of thoughts :

It seems bus driving in major cities pays much better and especially in London where hourly rates can be as high as £14 an hour for a driving during the day. Intercity scheduled coach work never seems to pay as well - maybe that sort of work is easier?

That's probably influenced by the fact that TfL sets a minimum hourly rate for drivers as part of its contracts. And the shortage of bus drivers in London, not helped by the otherwise rather good increase in bus numbers from 6k to 8k during the 00s

I'm not sure how air traffic control could be computerised - as instructions are given by a Human being at present - maybe Striker could elaborate.

In theory an ATC computer could talk directly to the place contrl systems. I suspect people aren't quite ready for that yet, though.

 

[talltim]

I think Striker said he thought pilots should be paid more than ATCs, but I could be wrong
One thing that no-one has directly mentioned is that train drivers require a far longer training period than PSV drivers. Once you have spent £20k on training and wages during training you don't want to let them go so you pay them well. The PSV training period is far shorter and cheaper, and there are more bus drivers so they are easy to replace. This keeps their wages low.

 

[Yew]

Im going to take a risk and hope it doesnt backfire on me..

I would say that its possible that a bus driver is as skilled as a train driver, Because although a train driver has to learn the route, after that he is merely repeting information and adjusting it to the that days circumstances (weather, loadings and unit) this is because of the long braking times making a more reactive driving impossible. Whereas a bus driver has a set of skills, that they can then apply to any situation, as the better brakes on a bus allow this style to be possible.

I hope that you see where I'm coming from?

 

[GB]

I can see this becoming a train driver vs bus driver thread so I think will refrain from responding to Yews post (no offence)