Expansion of LNER 70-min flex trial area ("Simpler Fares")

[Adsy125]

Dynamic pricing should be banned in all circumstances. Such a lack of transparency is only tolerated because the public are seen by the Establishment as mugs to be exploited by big business.

So no advance fares at all? That seems like a very extreme view.

 

[yorksrob]

So no advance fares at all? That seems like a very extreme view.

Advanced fares aren't necessarily dynamic pricing. They're usually tiers of first come, first served offers. I don't object to that.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Advanced fares aren't necessarily dynamic pricing. They're usually tiers of first come, first served offers. I don't object to that.

But that's all LNER are doing although they are using a fancy name for it

 

[yorksrob]

But that's all LNER are doing although they are using a fancy name for it

Fair play to them in that case.

I think these systems where a computer puts the prices up as demand surges ought to be banned though.

 

[Haywain]

I think these systems where a computer puts the prices up as demand surges ought to be banned though.

So, it's OK if a human does it?

 

[yorksrob]

So, it's OK if a human does it?

Not really. I've said before on here that I don't think railway companies should be allowed to chop and change their AP quotas on the day regardless of how they're set.

But in terms of dynamic pricing more generally, humans aren't capable of changing prices in real time to the same extent, so the question isn't really relevant.

 

[BRX]

But that's all LNER are doing although they are using a fancy name for it

It's not really all they are doing, because they've massively raised the cap on what can be charged as advance fares. So the consequence of missing the "first come first served" fares is now different. And on top of that, the whole thing of pretending that trains are full means that some people who miss out on the "first come first served" fares will think they can't travel at all (not even at the higher price).

 

[Adam Williams]

But that's all LNER are doing although they are using a fancy name for it

So why do they need FareVantage/ROSE if that's all it is?

 

[Wallsendmag]

So why do they need FareVantage/ROSE if that's all it is?

They've had systems to do that for the last 10 years or so

 

[jayah]

Advanced fares aren't necessarily dynamic pricing. They're usually tiers of first come, first served offers. I don't object to that.

Unless advertised up front as this price until one month, that price until one week, then it's dynamic pricing.

Even offering 10 at this price and 10 at that price will produce something that looks like dynamic pricing is just as non-transparent.

In practice most long distance rail, aviation, hotels, package holidays and even some long stay parking are trying to maximise their revenue by forecasting demand and willingness to pay, and are adapting their pricing when the evidence changes.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Ok that’s simple enough then, the whole industry is already using Dynamic Pricing

 

[Dr Day]

Fair play to them in that case.

I think these systems where a computer puts the prices up as demand surges ought to be banned though.

What about when these algorithms bring prices down, which they can and do?

 

[yorksrob]

What about when these algorithms bring prices down, which they can and do?

I'd still prefer a system of tiers, rather than having an algorithm manipulating the price.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jun 2025 ==

Unless advertised up front as this price until one month, that price until one week, then it's dynamic pricing.

Even offering 10 at this price and 10 at that price will produce something that looks like dynamic pricing is just as non-transparent.

In practice most long distance rail, aviation, hotels, package holidays and even some long stay parking are trying to maximise their revenue by forecasting demand and willingness to pay, and are adapting their pricing when the evidence changes.

Ok that’s simple enough then, the whole industry is already using Dynamic Pricing

All the more reason why the off-peak fare needs to be retained in that case then !

 

[miklcct]

I'd still prefer a system of tiers, rather than having an algorithm manipulating the price.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jun 2025 ==





All the more reason why the off-peak fare needs to be retained in that case then !

A system of tiers can also be an algorithm manipulating the price as the algorithm can manipulate the availability of each tier. This is how traditional airline pricing works, but allocating the availability of booking class dynamically which can be matched to fares.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A system of tiers can also be an algorithm manipulating the price as the algorithm can manipulate the availability of each tier.

This is exactly how it works. Fixed tiers (you can see them all on brfares.com) with the software manipulating availability of each tier.

 

[yorksrob]

A system of tiers can also be an algorithm manipulating the price as the algorithm can manipulate the availability of each tier. This is how traditional airline pricing works, but allocating the availability of booking class dynamically which can be matched to fares.

It can be, but I don't think it should be.

I think that each fares round, tiers should be allocated and kept to. If there's a popular event, they will just sell out more quickly.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Lord Peter Hendy hails LNER as blueprint of nationalised operator. An article on The Standard website:
https://share.google/vs4549DsjqY1tcViT

"LNER is the blueprint for re-nationalising all train services in Britain", the rail minister said.
Lord Hendy praised the operator for putting “passengers first” and described it as a “trailblazer for innovation”.

This seems to be at odds with the abolition of flexible fares on some LNER routes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Lord Peter Hendy hails LNER as blueprint of nationalised operator: | The Standard https://share.google/vs4549DsjqY1tcViT
Oh dear!

To be fair most of it is - it really is a very well-run TOC that gets consistently good reviews. Just not the fares policy, both in terms of this "simplification" and the level of the fares. Though that said some people are willing to pay more for a high quality of service.

You'd not want the dross that is XC to be the model, would you?

LNER was very popular on here until they started messing with (increasing) fares.

 

[BRX]

LNER was very popular on here until they started messing with (increasing) fares.

And pretending that certain tickets aren't valid on certain trains, or that trains are full, and generally trying to throw the principle of flexible walk up travel out the window.

 

[modernrail]

And pretending that certain tickets aren't valid on certain trains, or that trains are full, and generally trying to throw the principle of flexible walk up travel out the window.

Yes, it is a real shame. They have gone from being my favourite to my least favourite operator.

 

[OneOfThe48]

Just announced by LNER

'Simpler fares' are being expanded to more stations with the stations between King's Cross and Stevenage now 'benefitting' from 'simpler' semi-flex tickets rather than the 'confusing' - and cheaper - off peak or super off peak tickets for journeys to Newcastle and further north after Sunday 7 September

While they do not 'benefit' from the new Semi-Flex tickets, it also looks like any national rail station within Zones 1-4 will have their off-peak and super off-peak tickets removed for journeys to Newcastle and further north at the same time.

LNER Simpler Fares Update – Phase 2a | LNER

www.lner.co.uk

Further stations will be included in the next planned phase of a pilot by LNER to make buying train tickets simpler for customers travelling long distances by rail.

The Simpler Fares pilot, which started in January 2024, sees often-complicated Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak fares removed and the introduction of a new, widely available Semi-Flexible fare.
Research shows more than a third of people are put off from travelling by rail because of confusion around fares. To help make customer journeys simpler, the Simpler Fares pilot includes three fares in both First Class and Standard:

• Fixed: The best value fares, only valid for the booked service(s) stated on the ticket.
• Semi-Flexible: A new ‘70min Flex’ fare allowing customers to travel as booked or start their journey up to 70 minutes earlier or later, travelling with LNER for the main leg of their journey. The 70min Flex may not always be shown alongside the Fixed fare.
• Fully Flexible: Valid for travel at any time of day.

Originally introduced for travel between London King’s Cross and Newcastle, Berwick-upon-Tweed, and Edinburgh, the pilot was extended in August 2024 to include smaller, intermediate stations, served by other train operators such as Northern, CrossCountry, and TransPennine Express, making fares simplification a reality for more journeys and customers.
Now, in the planned next stage of the pilot, 27 stations around London will be added, including stations between London King’s Cross and Stevenage. As part of this planned stage, LNER has been working with Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR) and Transport for London (TfL) to make sure that the new Semi-Flexible fare is available for connections using their services where applicable.
This means that the pilot fares will now be available for most journeys between the stations in the north from previous phases, including Newcastle, Berwick-upon-Tweed, Edinburgh, and surrounding areas, and the stations in the south introduced in this latest phase, where an LNER service is the main part of a journey.
Other journeys between origin or destination stations not included in the pilot will see no changes made to the ticket types available.
This important next step is designed to more closely resemble a vision for long distance fares simplification and enables LNER to capture much richer learnings to consider for the future.
During the two-year trial, LNER is continuing to gather and review feedback from customers and industry partners to understand more about how the changes are working for customers, while ensuring a wide range of affordable tickets are available across the pilot routes.
Simpler Fares tickets for the latest phase of the pilot are available to purchase from Sunday 10 August 2025 for travel from Sunday 7 September 2025.

 

[Sonic1234]

So now the visitor numbers for Finsbury Park will drop, and increase for West Hampstead.

 

[mikeg]

Why don't they just accept if people are trying to get around it, it's not what people want? Rather than distorting the market by trying to force people further to buy these horribly expensive fares.

 

[OneOfThe48]

So now the visitor numbers for Finsbury Park will drop, and increase for West Hampstead.

West Hampstead is in Zone 2

 

[Sonic1234]

West Hampstead is in Zone 2

Isn't it just for the stations on the route between Kings Cross and Stevenage in the London Zones it applies to?

Might be a trip out to East Croydon then - you get a tube trip thrown in too.

 

[MrJeeves]

Isn't it just for the stations on the route between Kings Cross and Stevenage in the London Zones it applies to?

Nope.

 

[OneOfThe48]

Isn't it just for the stations on the route between Kings Cross and Stevenage in the London Zones it applies to?

Might be a trip out to East Croydon then - you get a tube trip thrown in with the latter too.

No, the removal of Super Off Peak and Off Peak applies to stations within Zones 1-4.

While they do not 'benefit' from the new Semi-Flex tickets, it also looks like any national rail station within Zones 1-4 will have their off-peak and super off-peak tickets removed for journeys to Newcastle and further north at the same time.

 

[MrJeeves]

No, the removal of Super Off Peak and Off Peak applies to stations within Zones 1-4.

This part of Phase 2a is quite the large omission from the briefing pack sent out by LNER to retailers recently.

 

[OneOfThe48]

This part of Phase 2a is quite the large omission from the briefing pack sent out by LNER to retailers recently.

Indeed, and a notable omission from the LNER press release on their website

 

[greaterangrier]

I fancy a trip from Edinburgh to Brimsdown, via Kings Cross.