given £139.50 fare notice due to train breakdown.. Help!

[island]

Only if the UPFN is paid, yes. Not if it is appealed and thrown out or not paid for whatever reason.

I think it may vary by TOC. Flamingo has pointed out that FGW guards get commission on on-train sales but not on UPFNs.

 

[Darandio]

Indeed, the OP made no comment about the guard/TM's behaviour: it could just be that the guard genuinely thought he was doing the right thing

He did say this......

and did not forsee the problems with the attitude of the virgin train manager

So that could suggest that there was some sort of behaviour there, we just don't know what was said.

 

[bengolding]

Have you considered contacting your MP about this? Rather than going via the Customer Relations route, you may get a more favourable response (with compensation) from Virgin via your MP, as the response may be directly from senior management. A friend was wrongly charged on a Manchester - Euston train, and a swift apology came via their MP along with a cheque refund and a complimentary ticket offer.

As others have pointed out, most Virgin TMs are excellent. However, the few bad ones do not favours to the company. Ironically, from recent instances, they seem to be prevalent on the Manchester - Euston route.

 

[richardderby]

the train manager was arrogant and rude to us all. He looked like he had not slept for weeks judging by his red eyes. I have rail priv facilities, and have worked for the tube for twenty years, so am not in the habit, or have no interest in defrauding Virgin trains.. He was picking an argument, and it would appear, thought the four of us would just pay up if he bullied us into doing so, therefore pocketing his 5%.
been given the details of virgin C.E.O to write to, and assured by Passenger focus and Transpennine express Customer services, I have nothing to worry about.
My upset and distress in this matter and trust in my railway coleagues has been severely dented, I advised the Virgin TM he should be ashamed to wear an RMT badge on his tie...

 

[yorkie]

That is shocking.

Please feel free to PM me or email me with a draft letter and I will be happy to proof read it.

Chances are this person is known among his colleagues too. There are a small minority of TMs who are out to catch people out who have done nothing wrong, and will even go for fellow railway staff. Such individuals have no place in the rail industry (IMO) and are often well known among their colleagues and regular customers.

It is very important that incidents involving such individuals are reported so that appropriate action can be taken. Most people do not bother to complain, and don't they know it...

 

[First class]

the train manager was arrogant and rude to us all. He looked like he had not slept for weeks judging by his red eyes. I have rail priv facilities, and have worked for the tube for twenty years, so am not in the habit, or have no interest in defrauding Virgin trains.. He was picking an argument, and it would appear, thought the four of us would just pay up if he bullied us into doing so, therefore pocketing his 5%.
been given the details of virgin C.E.O to write to, and assured by Passenger focus and Transpennine express Customer services, I have nothing to worry about.
My upset and distress in this matter and trust in my railway coleagues has been severely dented, I advised the Virgin TM he should be ashamed to wear an RMT badge on his tie...

This TM wasn't called Stephen was he?

 

[43167]

I can back up the Op's story. I was on the same service from Preston and indeed they were having problems coupling up the 185's and the solution was to run 1 of the sets round. Eventually the train departed about 20 late.

In fact I think I came face to face with the op as I was talking to a TPE guard I know & a chap off the train asked him what his options were, and he was advised to stay on his booked route.

I wont name the guard, but will say his advice was very good and he knows his job, so poor training is not a factor in this case.

All the Virgin trains guard had to do was check to see if the connecting service was actually delayed, (which it was) and say ok, fine. But sounds like he had the attitued of TPE's problems are not Virgin's problems, thats £139.50 please.

Would a letter from me to Virgin backing up the events with the TPE service help the OP?.

 

[First class]

Can someone let me know the TM's name please, use PM if possible.

Been hoping to take action against a particular TM so would help.

 

[richardderby]

pretty sure his name was 'Ricky', wearing lots of cheap gold ....

 

[All Line Rover]

Ironically, from recent instances, they seem to be prevalent on the Manchester - Euston route.

I've noticed that too!

 

[bengolding]

Unless there are two by that name, he's definitely Euston based as I recall the name on recent early am services out of Euston. I know another (very good) Euston-based Virgin TM well and will ask him if this chap has a reputation.

 

[richardderby]

Unless there are two by that name, he's definitely Euston based as I recall the name on recent early am services out of Euston. I know another (very good) Euston-based Virgin TM well and will ask him if this chap has a reputation.

Not particularly good with the P.A..... thanks for that, as I said to the police, if I treated my customers like he does (Im a Station Supervisor on the Northern Line), I would not have a job.....:-x

 

[43167]

Not particularly good with the P.A..... thanks for that, as I said to the police, if I treated my customers like he does (Im a Station Supervisor on the Northern Line), I would not have a job.....:-x

In the end its him whos going to look stupid. Could the police do him for wasting police time. Because all it needed was for him to check on the Blackpool service and all this could have been avoided, but he chose to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

 

[Ferret]

Why the need to contact an MP?! Let's get some perspective here - the TM forgot to engage his brain and made a bad call. Virgin's customer relations team will be more than happy to put the issue right, and I'm sure the TM will be offered the appropriate guidance.

 

[richardderby]

I can back up the Op's story. I was on the same service from Preston and indeed they were having problems coupling up the 185's and the solution was to run 1 of the sets round. Eventually the train departed about 20 late.

In fact I think I came face to face with the op as I was talking to a TPE guard I know & a chap off the train asked him what his options were, and he was advised to stay on his booked route.

I wont name the guard, but will say his advice was very good and he knows his job, so poor training is not a factor in this case.

All the Virgin trains guard had to do was check to see if the connecting service was actually delayed, (which it was) and say ok, fine. But sounds like he had the attitued of TPE's problems are not Virgin's problems, thats £139.50 please.

Would a letter from me to Virgin backing up the events with the TPE service help the OP?.

thanks for the offer of help, will be in touch if i need any further proof to back this up. As you know, from yesterday, i did everything within my remit, and didnt feel the need to pester the on board TPE staff further, who were already strugling to deal with the problems with the train failure, and tipping everyone off the rear 185 unit!

 

[WestCoast]

In a situation like that, I'd have told him he was wrong and asked him to phone someone and I'd have done nothing until that happened. I'd have also mentioned the NRCoC as many times as I could and tell him that he didn't know it. If someone is snappy to you, snap back!! I would have also complained.

Although, I fully appreciate that if someone is being rude and you are tired, this can be extremely frustrating. For people who are less knowledgeable, then it's an impossible task.

I think I know the TM you are talking about - the bit about poor PA announcements and fake gold sparked a memory. The Preston/Glasgow/Edinburgh TMs seem to be a great bunch of sensible people, although the other ones I can't vouch for.

To the OP, there are two Virgin reps that patrol their Facebook page during office hours. If you post something bad about them like this - they will respond fast.

When you do complain, don't forget to mention how disappointed and disgusted you are with the firm and don't forget the distress (it's genuine this time!). I am told I am good at complaint letters - but I will only do them when I have a valid complaint.

 

[YorkshireBear]

If someone is snappy to you, snap back!! I would have also complained.

I agree with that, as everyone tells me respect is earned if they are going to snap then snap back. Same in all walks of life. I had a northern conductor accuse me of fare dodging yesterday and try confiscate my pass, id just forgotten to swap the new months pass to front but it took me 2 minutes to tell him this as he continued ranting at me so i just snapped at him.

Ive never had a bad experience with virgin, i once nearly boarded a train at stockport that said peak tickets only. I had an off peak return from meadowhall to chester as there wasnt a peak or anytime option for this route. I explained and she said im not really sure how that has happened but come on anyway not a problem.

As you say you are entirely in the right, so dont pay and hold out for them to get back to you.

 

[premier01]

Not particularly good with the P.A..... thanks for that, as I said to the police, if I treated my customers like he does (Im a Station Supervisor on the Northern Line), I would not have a job.....:-x

Is it standard practice to call the police when a UPFN is issued-or was it because you refused to accept the UPFN.

I agree with your actions either way but I always thought if there was a dispute and you knew you were in the right that you should request a UPFN and appeal and not pay for a new ticket-only if you refuse to accept-guess you have to give name and address-would they involve the police-if they always involve the police then I would think twice about not paying for ticket as police would usually just go with whatever the TOC staff say-which obviously isn't always right.

 

[Ferret]

Is it standard practice to call the police when a UPFN is issued-or was it because you refused to accept the UPFN.

I agree with your actions either way but I always thought if there was a dispute and you knew you were in the right that you should request a UPFN and appeal and not pay for a new ticket-only if you refuse to accept-guess you have to give name and address-would they involve the police-if they always involve the police then I would think twice about not paying for ticket as police would usually just go with whatever the TOC staff say-which obviously isn't always right.

If the name and address given check out then there's no need to involve the Police. Only real need for the Police is if there's a refusal to give details, as I've had happen today! As you may expect, one gentleman removed from the train as a result of his failure to co-operate, not to mention his language!

 

[Flamingo]

Just on a general point, we are not under any obligation to issue UPFN's, and they are supposed to be issued only as far as the next manned station, except in exceptional circumstances. The guard is the one who decides a UPFN is appropriate, and the circumstances are exceptional, not the passenger.

Otherwise we get every lowlife in the country of no fixed abode saying "I want one of those written tickets", with absolutely no chance of ever seeing the money off them.

In this case, I think, (as ferret said), that some sensible communication with a grown-up should sort out the situation, and the guards manager may get involved in some retraining.

 

[yorkie]

East Coast's policy states "If you are unable to produce a valid ticket, you will be requested to purchase a ticket at the full Standard or First Class single rate. If you do not make the payment immediately, an authorised member of staff (Guard, Revenue Protection, Rail enforcement Officer, Station Platform staff) will ask you for your name and address, to give you the opportunity to pay the excess fare within ten days of the notice being issued"

No passenger can reasonably be expected to carry any sum of money on top of what they believe to be a valid ticket, so if you are on an Advance ticket and the guard deems it invalid because of a delay, then if the guard is not going to adhere to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage and Advance FAQs in the Manual, and incorrectly charge the customer, the only option the guard would have would be to issue an unpaid fare notice, because the customer is unlikely to have a spare £139 or so for a new ticket. If the guard insists on payment up front, then I would say that, combined with the fact he is not adhering to the rules in the first place, should be justified grounds for dismissal, due to a series of errors and gross incompetence and bringing the TOC into disrepute.

Virgin must act against this guard. It is, in fact, highly unfair on the vast majority of guards who do a good job, that a small minority act in such an inappropriate way, that gives the industry a bad name. They cannot allow such people to bring the company, and the rail industry in general, into disrepute.

If Virgin do not act appropriately, then contact your MP and Watchdog. But I think that we need to see what Virgin say first, and I hope that the OP will report back with good news in due course. I am reasonably confident that Virgin will take appropriate action.

 

[Ferret]

Just on a general point, we are not under any obligation to issue UPFN's, and they are supposed to be issued only as far as the next manned station, except in exceptional circumstances. The guard is the one who decides a UPFN is appropriate, and the circumstances are exceptional, not the passenger.

Otherwise we get every lowlife in the country of no fixed abode saying "I want one of those written tickets", with absolutely no chance of ever seeing the money off them.

Flamingo - what do you do if somebody like that asks for a UFN? Personally, I play along initially - get them to write out name/address details and then make them the subject of a nice TIR.

The reasoning behind this is simple - if you know about UFN's, you've obviously got on board without a ticket or any means to pay sometime previously. And getting on board with no money and no means to pay is as far as I'm concerned evidence of intent to avoid the fare due. The same goes for the 'you'll have to swipe my card' brigade. Authorisation fail by HSBC equals a TIR. And a TIR usually equals prosecution.

 

[Flamingo]

To be honest, I've never done a TIR, we have not been trained to do them, and do not have any forms to do them on. Even filling in a UPFN (which I do) is seen a a bit "OTT" by a lot of FGW TM's! The You'll have to swipe my card" brigade are usually answered by "You'll have to get off at the next stop and do it there". Sometimes I'll ring for authorisation, just to see the panicked expression on their faces! The "I need a written ticket" gets the "You should have sorted it out before you got on, do it at the next stop".

Luckily enough, most of the routes and times I work go through manned barriered stations, the advantages of working InterCity trains. Out of hours, the companies attitude could be summarised as "don't delay the trains, any money you get is a bonus".
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East Coast's policy states "If you are unable to produce a valid ticket, you will be requested to purchase a ticket at the full Standard or First Class single rate. If you do not make the payment immediately, an authorised member of staff (Guard, Revenue Protection, Rail enforcement Officer, Station Platform staff) will ask you for your name and address, to give you the opportunity to pay the excess fare within ten days of the notice being issued"

FGW is that the UPFN is to the next stop, then off unless you can give a good reason (vulnerable adult, exceptional circumstances, last train, etc).

 

[WelshBluebird]

To be honest, I've never done a TIR, we have not been trained to do them, and do not have any forms to do them on. Even filling in a UPFN (which I do) is seen a a bit "OTT" by a lot of FGW TM's! The You'll have to swipe my card" brigade are usually answered by "You'll have to get off at the next stop and do it there". Sometimes I'll ring for authorisation, just to see the panicked expression on their faces! The "I need a written ticket" gets the "You should have sorted it out before you got on, do it at the next stop".

Luckily enough, most of the routes and times I work go through manned barriered stations, the advantages of working InterCity trains. Out of hours, the companies attitude could be summarised as "don't delay the trains, any money you get is a bonus".

I am guessing you would have enjoyed someone who was on the train from Tiverton Parkway to Bristol a couple of weeks ago! He had a XC only ticket and was trying to blag it to the FGW TM that he has been using the same type of ticket on this train for the last few years. Even though I am just a passenger, I couldn't help but think that he was just digging himself further into a hole and that FGW could go after him for it. But no, the TM just made the point to him, got him to pay the difference and that was it. I am sure the passenger will try the same thing next time and will get away with it quite a lot (I have noticed that ticket checks are not that common from Tiverton to Bristol on FGW services).

FGW is that the UPFN is to the next stop, then off unless you can give a good reason (vulnerable adult, exceptional circumstances, last train, etc).

Even if the member of staff is 100% wrong? I really do not see how that is fair at all.

 

[Flamingo]

I am guessing you would have enjoyed someone who was on the train from Tiverton Parkway to Bristol a couple of weeks ago! He had a XC only ticket and was trying to blag it to the FGW TM that he has been using the same type of ticket on this train for the last few years. Even though I am just a passenger, I couldn't help but think that he was just digging himself further into a hole and that FGW could go after him for it. But no, the TM just made the point to him, got him to pay the difference and that was it. I am sure the passenger will try the same thing next time and will get away with it quite a lot (I have noticed that ticket checks are not that common from Tiverton to Bristol on FGW services).

I regularly get people who say "Well nobody else has a problem with this (e.g. off-peak, split ticket). As soon as they say they have done it before, I am less inclined to go for the excess option (unless I have no option, e.g. off-peak to peak single). On the Didcot split tickets, that means £30.50 Rdg-Swi, not £14

Even if the member of staff is 100% wrong? I really do not see how that is fair at all.

Well, it all depends on who is saying they are 100% wrong. At the end of the day the company has trained staff. Policies are written in the understanding that the people applying them are trained to implement them. As I said, I get several people a day (usually on Advance tickets) who insist that they are right and I am wrong. Some of them even genuinely believe that they are right.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I regularly get people who say "Well nobody else has a problem with this (e.g. off-peak, split ticket). As soon as they say they have done it before, I am less inclined to go for the excess option (unless I have no option, e.g. off-peak to peak single). On the Didcot split tickets, that means £30.50 Rdg-Swi, not £14.

I was very tempted to turn around and tell him "look mate, you are lucky you are only being excessed the difference!". I have no problem with (and will support) people who have genuine reasons. But trying to blag having a XC only ticket on a FGW service when there have been no delays or disruptions? Not going to happen.

Policies are written in the understanding that the people applying them are trained to implement them.

And that is probably the issue. The people applying them are not always correctly trained, or do not always apply them correctly. And my opinion is that there needs to be a fairer way of dealing with that than just saying "pay up, and you may be able to sort it out after".

 

[richardderby]

sent the letters off recorded delivery yesterday to virgin trains and also the UPFN company which operate seperately. took a lot of advice from passenger focus, (my friend who was travelling worked for them until recently), and will let everyone know in due course, what the reply and result are.
have calmed down a bit now, yes it was upsetting and distressing, and the option to pay the TM on our credit cards did pass through our heads at the time as we were tired, it was late, and we had never experienced this kind of behaviour or confrontion by a member of railway staff before. We know that we were right on this occasion and therefore stuck to our guns. definately 'Ricky' needs a wee bit of retraining though, in the least.... :-x

 

[Flamingo]

sent the letters off recorded delivery yesterday to virgin trains and also the UPFN company which operate seperately. took a lot of advice from passenger focus, (my friend who was travelling worked for them until recently), and will let everyone know in due course, what the reply and result are.
have calmed down a bit now, yes it was upsetting and distressing, and the option to pay the TM on our credit cards did pass through our heads at the time as we were tired, it was late, and we had never experienced this kind of behaviour or confrontion by a member of railway staff before. We know that we were right on this occasion and therefore stuck to our guns. definately 'Ricky' needs a wee bit of retraining though, in the least.... :-x

I hope you get a positive outcome. I don't see any reason why you wouldn't.

 

[Ferret]

To be honest, I've never done a TIR, we have not been trained to do them, and do not have any forms to do them on. Even filling in a UPFN (which I do) is seen a a bit "OTT" by a lot of FGW TM's! The You'll have to swipe my card" brigade are usually answered by "You'll have to get off at the next stop and do it there". Sometimes I'll ring for authorisation, just to see the panicked expression on their faces! The "I need a written ticket" gets the "You should have sorted it out before you got on, do it at the next stop".

Luckily enough, most of the routes and times I work go through manned barriered stations, the advantages of working InterCity trains. Out of hours, the companies attitude could be summarised as "don't delay the trains, any money you get is a bonus".

Really? TIRs are a piece of cake. Of course, it requires your employers to actually give a toss and want to prosecute those that really deserve it! All a TIR is a statement of fact. I've never really had proper training - just told this is what a completed one looks like and use it as a template. Since then I've done a good few. Far too many dodgy people about these days it seems!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I hope you get a positive outcome. I don't see any reason why you wouldn't.

I don't even think there's any need to keep our fingers crossed for the OP if I'm honest. It's that cut and dried based on the facts he's offered us that I'll offer to streak through Euston station if Virgin don't rescind the UFN and apologise!

 

[Flamingo]

I'll offer to streak through Euston station if Virgin don't rescind the UFN and apologise!

Let us know when