London North Eastern Railway (LNER) First Class service

[All Line Rover]

Which might be true but unless I'm very much mistaken all Virgin's services (or at least the 390s) no matter where they start from offer the evening meal at the appropriate time. On EC unless you're on a service from KGX and on a selected service from KGX you get the all-day offer which as we've established isn't really much of a meal (when it's available).

Still having said that you've pretty much agreed with what I and everyone else think, that the morning offer on EC is good as is the all-day offer at around lunch time. But on an evening it really isn't enough (unless you're leaving KGX).

You are incorrect. Virgin trains only serve an Evening Meal on services that depart their origin station between 17:00pm and 19:00pm.

For example, please look at this timetable: http://bitURL.net/vtpink. The 16:55 Manchester to London service stops at Stockport, Wilmslow and Crewe after 17:00pm, but does not serve an Evening Meal - because it departed its origin station before 17:00pm. The 18:55 Manchester to London service stops at Stockport, Wilmslow and Crewe after 19:00pm, but does serve an Evening Meal - because it departed its origin station before 19:00pm.

The only exception is the London to Glasgow route, where the meal offering can change at Preston depending on the time of day. A hot item is served on all London to Glasgow trains. More information is here: http://bitURL.net/vteusglc.

 

[ainsworth74]

You are incorrect. Virgin trains only serve an Evening Meal on services that depart their origin station between 17:00pm and 19:00pm.

Yeah that's not the point I was making. My point was on EC the only trains that offer an evening meal are those selected services departing from Kings Cross at the appropriate time. Whereas on VT as you rightly point out all trains departing from any origin station will serve an evening meal.

 

[All Line Rover]

Today I traveled on the 13:45 Doncaster to London King's Cross Service (from Leeds) - again a HST. It had the "All-Day" offering. Once again, I was satisfied with the offering. I got served 4 quarters of salmon sandwich, a piece of cake and a banana. It was more than adequate for a "light lunch", although would not constitute a full meal.

For everyone who is complaining about not being able to have a full meal at lunchtime: You can forget about the idea of having a full meal! Virgin don't do it - East Coast won't do it. The previous "At-Seat Dining" offering was unsustainable (according to East Coast anyway). You cannot compare the current "All-Day" offering to the previous "At-Seat Dining" offering. Firstly, the new offering costs nothing. Secondly, it is not supposed to be a full meal (although East Coast don't make this clear in their advertising literature!).

Here is my opinion of how this "new" offering fares on all routes (except those north of Edinburgh):

"BREAKFAST:"

London to Leeds: Very good (As good as Virgin)

London to Newcastle: Very good (As good as Virgin)

London to Edinburgh: Very good (As good as Virgin)

"MID-MORNING:"

London to Leeds: Very good (Better than Virgin)

London to Newcastle: Very good (Better than Virgin)

London to Edinburgh: Good (As good as Virgin)

"ALL-DAY:"

London to Leeds: Very good (Better than Virgin)

London to Newcastle: Good (As good as Virgin)

London to Edinburgh: OK (As good as Virgin)

"EVENING MEAL:"

London to Leeds: Very good (As good as Virgin)

London to Newcastle: Good (As good as Virgin)

London to Edinburgh: Poor (Not as good as Virgin)

Basically all of East Coast's "new" offering is more than adequate on the London to Leeds route, and probably to London to Newcastle route too (apart from the limited selection of Evening Meal services, which will need improving). The Breakfast and Mid-Morning offerings are adequate on the London to Edinburgh route, but the All-Day and Evening Meal offerings are not. Perhaps East Coast will have to introduce a separate menu for the London to Edinburgh route, like Virgin do for their London to Glasgow route?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

@All Line Rover Could I respectfully suggest that you read and reflect on the posts by those you unkindly refer to as "all those who are complaining . . . . you lot"?

If you did, you'll find it assists you in making your posts relevant to those to whom you're referring.
As an additional benefit, it might even assist you in achieving a higher degree of accuracy in your pronouncements.
Hope this helps

 

[All Line Rover]

@All Line Rover Could I respectfully suggest that you read and reflect on the posts by those you unkindly refer to as "all those who are complaining . . . . you lot"?

If you did, you'll find it assists you in making your posts relevant to those to whom you're referring.
As an additional benefit, it might even assist you in achieving a higher degree of accuracy in your pronouncements.
Hope this helps

Dave, without wishing to be rude, you do seem to take offense easily, at things that are not intended to cause offense. It's as if you are complaining in half of your posts!

There are many people who are complaining about the All Day offering. I have better things to do with my time than wade through 60 odd pages of discussion so that I can name names! If anyone is offended by my post, please say so.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Better?

 

[Marton]

Just joining this debate.

I am a regular from the NE to London and back an have been so for over 20 years, now more than ever. I usulaly travel both ways on evening trains.

Going North in the evening is fine; a reasonable hot meal after a day at work.

The problem I have now is no proper meal in the evening when going south. I used to use the 1600 or 1700 from Edinburgh and have dinner; the current offering is not a reasonable main meal for someone who has been in the office all day, and eating in London at 2100 or 2200 is too late for rmany of us.

ECML please mirror the northbound evening meal on some southbound services...

 

[Failed Unit]

Dave, without wishing to be rude, you do seem to take offense easily, at things that are not intended to cause offense. It's as if you are complaining in half of your posts!

There are many people who are complaining about the All Day offering. I have better things to do with my time than wade through 60 odd pages of discussion so that I can name names! If anyone is offended by my post, please say so.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Better?

Not really, You seem to take the following viewpoints.

1. How does it compare to Virgin - who cares to be honest virgin, why not compare all supermarkets to Lidl while you are at it or a five star restuarant to McDonalds. We should compare to what we had before, GNER wanted to be the best not a clone of another operator!
2. It is free so we shouldn't care - again people want quality and if you use that arguement with someone who used to use the 1700 ex Edinburgh and was happy to pay £30+ for a decent meal you may find the the current offer is a downgrade - they are happy to pay!

The positive from the recent posts is that east coast do sound like the are giving what the should, ie 4 sandwiches and not 2 without the passenger having to beg which is a major improvement in itself. No real feedback on the availability of the hot meal and if it is still as rare as hens teeth.

I am interested on economics as is Dave,
Please tell me how giving food and alcohol to passengers for nothing is going to lose less money than selling it? People were prepared to pay you know? I suspect the catering inputs bill has gone up considerably, if this is paid for by the difference between first and standard so be it, but I doubt we will ever know!

 

[All Line Rover]

Let's bring this thread back onto the front page!

UPDATE - FOOD IS SOMETIMES SERVED BETWEEN KGX AND PBO When I traveled with East Coast last Saturday on a London to Leeds service, I was served a sandwich just 15 minutes after departure from KGX - and the staff didn't ask where I was getting off!

So, being on an ALR, if simply got off at PBO and returned to KGX. My experience seems to indicate that not all staff strictly follow the 70 minute rule.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I am interested on economics as is Dave,
Please tell me how giving food and alcohol to passengers for nothing is going to lose less money than selling it? People were prepared to pay you know? I suspect the catering inputs bill has gone up considerably, if this is paid for by the difference between first and standard so be it, but I doubt we will ever know!

Obviously I don't work for East Coast (and in particular not for their First Class catering department!), but I imagine that they think the previous statistics and the ones they are hoping for go something like this:

"OLD" Restaurant/At-Seat Dining service:
Average number of First Class passengers on each train: 20
Average amount of revenue from First Class passengers on each train: 20x £70 = £1400
Average cost price of First Class food for each train: £150
Average cost of Chef for each train: £150
Average amount of First Class sold: £200
Average amount of food waste: 40%
Total "profit" per train: £1300

"NEW" Complimentary service:
Average number of First Class passengers on each train: 30
Average amount of revenue from First Class passengers on each train: 30x £70 = £2100
Average cost price of First Class food for each train: £250
Average cost of Chef for each train: £- (no chef)
Average amount of First Class sold: £- (food complimentary)
Average amount of food waste: 15%
Total "profit" per train: £1850

 

[Blindtraveler]

hmmm, interesting

 

[DaveNewcastle]

To compare the 'before' and 'after' costs and revenue, we really need a more sophisticated analysis than that; there are other variables.
Firstly, under the 'old' system, the Restaurant may serve 30 or more covers, with an average take around £24 net of VAT, though sometimes as few as 4 covers.
However, the Restaurant was only provided on a handful of services, by a 1st class crew of 5. Some quiet services (without restaurant) operated with a crew of 1.

Under the 'new' system, there is a higher staffing level on (almost) all services and food is supplied on many more services. The cost of the consumables on those services with cold food/sandwiches only may be quite modest, but on those with hot food, then much higher (think 30 portions of salmon and the same of the tartlet, plus alcohol).
In addition to the higher volume of food being delivered on-board, there will be the corresponding higher access charges - all these additional modules have to be filled, stored, loaded, removed and cleaned.
There are still 15 chefs in service, cheffing.
I think we've covered all these figures previously, I don't think I've providing any new info here, just correcting the post above.

 

[YorkshireRider]

I was told at our last brief/safety day that the company would need an increase of 8% in revenue to cover the extra cost, it was 15% up on the last period compared to last year so they are happy so far. Ive no break down of that so dont know if its down to the number of promotions they have being running and whether it actually is extra first class passengers or not. There is to be a full review of the catering offer mid-september, nothing will change till at least after then, im sure everyone on here has already sent their views to EC but if not do it before then.

 

[Failed Unit]

I was told at our last brief/safety day that the company would need an increase of 8% in revenue to cover the extra cost, it was 15% up on the last period compared to last year so they are happy so far. Ive no break down of that so dont know if its down to the number of promotions they have being running and whether it actually is extra first class passengers or not. There is to be a full review of the catering offer mid-september, nothing will change till at least after then, im sure everyone on here has already sent their views to EC but if not do it before then.

Sounds like a good time to do the review so changes can be implemented in the December timetable change if needed.

Hoping and praying that they do something about the Anglo - Scottish route offering and return real food to the evening Southbound services, even if it is the same as what is offer on the KX departing services!

 

[Blindtraveler]

if views were sent to them in the form of constructive comment as aposed to a rant would they be listened too? also are staff to be consulted?

 

[All Line Rover]

To compare the 'before' and 'after' costs and revenue, we really need a more sophisticated analysis than that; there are other variables.
Firstly, under the 'old' system, the Restaurant may serve 30 or more covers, with an average take around £24 net of VAT, though sometimes as few as 4 covers.
However, the Restaurant was only provided on a handful of services, by a 1st class crew of 5. Some quiet services (without restaurant) operated with a crew of 1.

Under the 'new' system, there is a higher staffing level on (almost) all services and food is supplied on many more services. The cost of the consumables on those services with cold food/sandwiches only may be quite modest, but on those with hot food, then much higher (think 30 portions of salmon and the same of the tartlet, plus alcohol).
In addition to the higher volume of food being delivered on-board, there will be the corresponding higher access charges - all these additional modules have to be filled, stored, loaded, removed and cleaned.
There are still 15 chefs in service, cheffing.
I think we've covered all these figures previously, I don't think I've providing any new info here, just correcting the post above.

Yes, that is all correct. I'm just trying to make a very basic comparison! I would only make a more sophisticated analysis is East Coast paid me to do so (can't be bothered otherwise).

I can't imagine East Coast ever posting official figures on this forum! Unless someone did an FOI request...

And I haven't seen the figure of 15 chefs being mentioned previously.

 

[Pumbaa]

Just got off the Highland Chieftain. I did Inverness - Edinburgh. Overall, it felt no better or worse than any other operator.

Good points:

- Good sized freshly cooked breakfast
- Staff regularly walked through, with 8 opportunities for tea/coffee, and 4 for croissants/muffins/pastries

Bad points:

- Staff were irritable at having to be asked x number of times what was available for breakfast, where were the menus?
- 2 staff members were very unapproachable, and from listening to their mumbling they seemed irritated their crew leader had sent them on another drinks round.
- The sticky labels on the table look unprofessional and gimmicky. Even with their use, wrong orders were delivered or not delivered at all.
- Staff uniform was a mess, 2 weren't wearing ties or neckscarves, one was even wearing the NX tie. A small moan, but a valid one considering the service is meant to be 'professional'.

Another query; why do East Coast now display surnames on their badges and announce them? I don't want to that my guard is Timothy Watson, or my host Lisa Fenwick, Lisa on the badge or Tim on the announcements will do. To me, it seems like a small gimmick trying to 'boost' the professionalism and approachability of the crew which doesn't (in my opinion) achieve either of those aims.

In summary, no different to other operators, I won't use it again and use the cash saved to go to M+S beforehand.
-

 

[AlterEgo]

if views were sent to them in the form of constructive comment as aposed to a rant would they be listened too?

Yes, of course. Any company worth its salt will listen to the people who hand them their revenue! Provided the criticism is polite, constructive and reasonable, there should be no reason for it to be ignored.

It may help if when complaining you tell them how their decision to alter the catering affects the likelihood of them (re)gaining your custom.

 

[All Line Rover]

Just got off the Highland Chieftain. I did Inverness - Edinburgh. Overall, it felt no better or worse than any other operator.

Good points:

- Good sized freshly cooked breakfast
- Staff regularly walked through, with 8 opportunities for tea/coffee, and 4 for croissants/muffins/pastries

In summary, no different to other operators, I won't use it again and use the cash saved to go to M+S beforehand.
-

You say that you won't travel First Class again, but in what way do your criticisms of the new offering differ to those of the previous one?

- Staff were irritable at having to be asked x number of times what was available for breakfast, where were the menus?

This can be easily sorted by management telling staff to always put menus on the tables, just like they did for the previous offering.

- 2 staff members were very unapproachable, and from listening to their mumbling they seemed irritated their crew leader had sent them on another drinks round.

Staff members could be just as irritable under the previous offering. Drinks were still free - they still had to come round plenty of times.

- The sticky labels on the table look unprofessional and gimmicky. Even with their use, wrong orders were delivered or not delivered at all.

Under the previous offering, most staff seemed to remember orders from memory. Occasionally orders could be given to the wrong customer, or not given at all. This is no different to the new offering. From my limited experience, most staff seem to have a notepad, on which they write the order and seat number of each customer.

- Staff uniform was a mess, 2 weren't wearing ties or neckscarves, one was even wearing the NX tie. A small moan, but a valid one considering the service is meant to be 'professional'.

Whether the catering is free or not has nothing to do with how staff present themselves!

In summary, if you previously traveled First Class with East Coast, I don't understand why you no longer wish to do so. All of your criticisms just quoted could have applied to the previous offering, and can be quickly rectified with the new offering (providing that management takes an active role).

The Advance ticket price hasn't change, and you are getting a free Full English Breakfast as well as plenty of croissant/toast and tea/coffee. For less than £20 extra, it seems quite a bargain to me! (Especially if you have a Railcard.) After all, GNER charged £16 for a Full English Breakfast, and that was many years ago! (And that's without taking into account the cost of the First Class ticket - unless, of course, you bought a Standard Class ticket and sat in the Restaurant Car.)

 

[YorkshireRider]

Just got off the Highland Chieftain. I did Inverness - Edinburgh. Overall, it felt no better or worse than any other operator.

Good points:

- Good sized freshly cooked breakfast
- Staff regularly walked through, with 8 opportunities for tea/coffee, and 4 for croissants/muffins/pastries

Bad points:

- Staff were irritable at having to be asked x number of times what was available for breakfast, where were the menus?
- 2 staff members were very unapproachable, and from listening to their mumbling they seemed irritated their crew leader had sent them on another drinks round.
- The sticky labels on the table look unprofessional and gimmicky. Even with their use, wrong orders were delivered or not delivered at all.
- Staff uniform was a mess, 2 weren't wearing ties or neckscarves, one was even wearing the NX tie. A small moan, but a valid one considering the service is meant to be 'professional'.

Another query; why do East Coast now display surnames on their badges and announce them? I don't want to that my guard is Timothy Watson, or my host Lisa Fenwick, Lisa on the badge or Tim on the announcements will do. To me, it seems like a small gimmick trying to 'boost' the professionalism and approachability of the crew which doesn't (in my opinion) achieve either of those aims.

In summary, no different to other operators, I won't use it again and use the cash saved to go to M+S beforehand.
-

Both first name and surname have always been on the badges since GNER first began, as was the case with NXEC, and the script for PA announcements with all these companies requested to give your full name when making announcements, its just many crews dont bother and niether do i for that matter (niether first or surname), just more unneccesary jibba jabba. Its certainly nothing new that EC have introduced.

 

[Pumbaa]

Whether the catering is free or not has nothing to do with how staff present themselves!

In summary, if you previously traveled First Class with East Coast, I don't understand why you no longer wish to do so. All of your criticisms just quoted could have applied to the previous offering, and can be quickly rectified with the new offering (providing that management takes an active role).

The Advance ticket price hasn't change, and you are getting a free Full English Breakfast as well as plenty of croissant/toast and tea/coffee. For less than £20 extra, it seems quite a bargain to me! (Especially if you have a Railcard.) After all, GNER charged £16 for a Full English Breakfast, and that was many years ago! (And that's without taking into account the cost of the First Class ticket - unless, of course, you bought a Standard Class ticket and sat in the Restaurant Car.)

I expect a professional service, and part of that is how the staff are turned out. I was more disappointed by this trip; I travelled previously with them and with NXEC as well. On both occasions, and in line with this, I consider the FC service to be inferior to West Coast, and a lot of that is down to the crew. Maybe I've just had bad luck on all my trips with staff. I rarely travel First, if I do so it is because of cost/effectiveness. I did travel regularly in First a while back with Virgin, because I was doing a return trip every 3-4 days between the NW and London, and at the time it was worthwhile as I was working on the go. I wouldn't do it with East Coast now or under the previous offering, nor with NXEC.

And from what I could gather the menus were in the galley, they just hadn't put them out.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Both first name and surname have always been on the badges since GNER first began, as was the case with NXEC, and the script for PA announcements with all these companies requested to give your full name when making announcements, its just many crews dont bother and niether do i for that matter (niether first or surname), just more unneccesary jibba jabba. Its certainly nothing new that EC have introduced.

Thanks - I'd never noticed before.

 

[All Line Rover]

I expect a professional service, and part of that is how the staff are turned out. I was more disappointed by this trip; I travelled previously with them and with NXEC as well. On both occasions, and in line with this, I consider the FC service to be inferior to West Coast, and a lot of that is down to the crew. Maybe I've just had bad luck on all my trips with staff. I rarely travel First, if I do so it is because of cost/effectiveness. I did travel regularly in First a while back with Virgin, because I was doing a return trip every 3-4 days between the NW and London, and at the time it was worthwhile as I was working on the go. I wouldn't do it with East Coast now or under the previous offering, nor with NXEC.

And from what I could gather the menus were in the galley, they just hadn't put them out.

Oh OK, so you don't want to travel First Class again because of the service you received, and not because of the new complimentary food? Fair enough...

 

[Pumbaa]

Oh OK, so you don't want to travel First Class again because of the service you received, and not because of the new complimentary food? Fair enough...

Yes - my criticisms may be particular and very slight in the grand scheme of things (I praised the food rather than knock it) but they were all with the service.

 

[Turbocharger]

I was on the 17:00 KingsX to Edinburgh on Monday. The FC carriage I was in was about 80% full, but only two people took up the hot meal offer and that was it. Even the drinks were snubbed by most.

 

[amcluesent]

At the risk of sounding like an EC fanboy, I have say that poor KGX-PBO journeys are becoming rarer.

Sad to say, this morning's 07:40 out of PBO was one of them. Draughty old HST, 16 mins late, wi-fi kaput, stewed coffee, only one juice on offer, just tired muffins/twists and no croissants left on the trolley. All topped off by watching pax being served their full English ordered north of PBO. That did not feel like FC

17:30 out of KGX, back to two sarnies as well.

I had a small success earlier in the week, asking for a G&T and vino 'for dinner' on leaving KGX. Trolley 'dolly' gave me a glare, but didn't say anything.

 

[All Line Rover]

SO IN SUMMARY, taking into account everyone's posts, I think this is what we feel on the whole:

Providing that 4 sandwich quarters are always served, everything is good, apart from:

• The "All Day" option on the London>Edinburgh route - something more substantial must be introduced, like Virgin do on the London>Glasgow route
• The "Evening Meal" option - it is not available on enough trains. It should be available on almost all Northbound trains between 5pm and 7pm, and should be available on a few Southbound trains too, especially the 17:30 and 18:30 Edinburgh>London services.

Would people agree with this? If so, perhaps everyone should send their own e-mail off to East Coast with these suggestions...

 

[amcluesent]

>Would people agree with this?<

AND London commuters out of PBO get at least a bacon roll until the 08:11 service and sarnies going out of KGX. The '70 min' rule is forcing us to tell porkie-pies all the time or be fobbed off with scraps.

 

[ainsworth74]

I would broadly agree with that summary ALR, it would be nice to see a bit more choice on the evening meal (as I wasn't particularly keen on anything on the menu on monday) but that should be a minor thing to sort out later as firstly there need to be more trains that even offer it!

Though I should add given the choice I would still go back to the old at-seat dining service

 

[Turbocharger]

In the perfect world I would agree with ALR. I have done the Leeds - KingsX run many times since the Eureka (whatever) service started. And the FC comp service does need a bit more consistency and continuity. But it is early days with this service.

People need to know what sort of bang for their bucks they will be getting and that just isn't happening. But I know these comments are being feedback, so let's see what happens
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Though I should add given the choice I would still go back to the old at-seat dining service

Hear, hear sir!

 

[All Line Rover]

Though I should add given the choice I would still go back to the old at-seat dining service

And there is a 1% chance of that happening! (With Elaine around!)

 

[Turbocharger]

And there is a 1% chance of that happening!

THANKS for killing our dreams ALR

 

[All Line Rover]

THANKS for killing our dreams ALR

Blame Elaine! Hey, that rhymes! We could create some more poems.