What mobile phone charging standard will be prevalent by the time HS2 opens?

[dosxuk]

That will be illegal or require new legislation in many states and territories round the world.

That's not as difficult as it sounds. After all, the micro USB connector was mandated in a similar way and that got replaced by USB-C when there was sufficient demand/evidence to make the change.

All it would realistically take for a change to happen is a new use case that can't be met by USB-C - such as higher power capacity being needed - at which point there will be plenty of lobbying to start accepting a new connector.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

That's not as difficult as it sounds. After all, the micro USB connector was mandated in a similar way and that got replaced by USB-C when there was sufficient demand/evidence to make the change.

But Micro USB wasn't universally accepted, Apple, many laptops, and other devices used their own connectors, now all of those have USB-C.

 

[AM9]

All it would realistically take for a change to happen is a new use case that can't be met by USB-C - such as higher power capacity being needed - at which point there will be plenty of lobbying to start accepting a new connector.

That might (eventually) be true but just because the relatively niche market of high performance laptops without correspondingly capacious batteries won't be usable is nothing to do with amenities for narmals on public transport. Laptops are getting more power frugal with SSDs and RISC based lower energy CPU, and with PD currently capable of 240W, that provides up to 48V at 5A, so a 'new case', even in the very unlikely situation that is arose, would almost certainly not be required on board a service train.
So between introduction and a mid-life refurb/refit, (about 20 years), there's no point in trying to cater for every unlikely scenario. Use what is currently available and proven.

 

[dosxuk]

But Micro USB wasn't universally accepted, Apple, many laptops, and other devices used their own connectors, now all of those have USB-C.

So between introduction and a mid-life refurb/refit, (about 20 years), there's no point in trying to cater for every unlikely scenario. Use what is currently available and proven.

The point I was making was that just because the law in some countries says you have to use USB-C today, doesn't mean that it will say the same in perpetuity.

I would simply provide standard UK sockets and USB-C with 65W PD as the vast majority of devices will be happy with the USB-C provision, and those that aren't can just use the 13A outlet. This includes any hypothetical device in the future which uses a successor to USB-C.

 

[Noddy]

the micro USB connector was mandated in a similar way and that got replaced by USB-C when there was sufficient demand/evidence to make the change.

The micro-USB was never legally mandated in any state or territory. USB-C is the only connector to ever have this and it applies or will apply to the EU, California, Saudi Arabia and India.

 

[AM9]

The point I was making was that just because the law in some countries says you have to use USB-C today, doesn't mean that it will say the same in perpetuity.

I would simply provide standard UK sockets and USB-C with 65W PD as the vast majority of devices will be happy with the USB-C provision, and those that aren't can just use the 13A outlet. This includes any hypothetical device in the future which uses a successor to USB-C.

I suspect that the railway in general is pleased that USB C has become a defacto standard that can be easily used by every smartphone user and almost all other devices such as tablets, laptops and headsets/earbuds. There's alway the potential for misuse of 13A sockets on trains and with USB C PD all the safety issues go away.

 

[3rd rail land]

I suspect that the railway in general is pleased that USB C has become a defacto standard that can be easily used by every smartphone user and almost all other devices such as tablets, laptops and headsets/earbuds. There's alway the potential for misuse of 13A sockets on trains and with USB C PD all the safety issues go away.

Are you suggesting that 3 pin sockets are done away with on safety grounds? We will definitely get to a point where this is possible as USB-C PD can handle up to 240W. USB-A may still have be provided as well just in case people have older devices they want to charge otherwise I can see people complaining about this, even in the early 2030s. I doubt all the ridiculous items people plug in on trains such as toasters, kettles and lamps will ever have anything other than a 3 pin plug for power.

 

[AM9]

Are you suggesting that 3 pin sockets are done away with on safety grounds? We will definitely get to a point where this is possible as USB-C PD can handle up to 240W. USB-A may still have be provided as well just in case people have older devices they want to charge otherwise I can see people complaining about this, even in the early 2030s. I doubt all the ridiculous items people plug in on trains such as toasters, kettles and lamps will ever have anything other than a 3 pin plug for power.

Yes I am. The BS1363 has done sterling service in home since the late '40s and continues to be far safer than standard offerings in many developed countries around the world. It is however designed for home and industrial use, not portable low power appliances. 240w is more than enough for any reasonable portable device needed on a train (or bus/coach) journey. Therefore I believe that rolling stock manufacturers, train operators etc., will grasp the opportunity to provide USB PD outlets instead of ac mains sockets. Some benefits include:

safety for users, - under EN60950-1, voltages under 60V are considered SELV (Safety Extra Low Voltage) where (accidental or deliberate) contact with conductors is not considered a hazard. That means that worn or broken connecting leads are no longer a hazard. Given the negotiation that USB device interfaces have with their external power supplies, the risk of excessive currents is also removed.​

the actual maximum power delivered is controlled and cannot be exceeded, (a fuse or circuit breaker on a 230v distribution system will allow greater surges and in the case of fuse, up to 1.6x the rated value. Where several outlets are grouped, this permits excessive demands of the circuit to the detriment of other users. Thus user abuse is prevented with USB PD.​

The EMC requirements (including voltage surge and brown outs) for general 230v ac consumer use are sometimes costly to ensure on an EMU. The general deployment of compliant USB PD modules at each outlet removes the EMC requirement from the ac distribution network.​

Fire risk is also reduced with current limiting within the outlet device connection.​

For the above reasons, I believe that fully protected PD modules will be developed and carry an integration cost similar to installing plain 230v ac outlets*, where operators don't have the lethal voltage liabilities. their safety and legal departments will drive the move to SELV access only for the public.
As far as USB A outlets are concerned, there is no need for them in new or refitted coaches, - adaptors are available to consumers for less than £5 retail.
* just observe how 15W+ USB supplies have been added to mains sockets at very little additional cost.

 

[Noddy]

Yes I am. The BS1363 has done sterling service in home since the late '40s and continues to be far safer than standard offerings in many developed countries around the world. It is however designed for home and industrial use, not portable low power appliances. 240w is more than enough for any reasonable portable device needed on a train (or bus/coach) journey. Therefore I believe that rolling stock manufacturers, train operators etc., will grasp the opportunity to provide USB PD outlets instead of ac mains sockets. Some benefits include:

safety for users, - under EN60950-1, voltages under 60V are considered SELV (Safety Extra Low Voltage) where (accidental or deliberate) contact with conductors is not considered a hazard. That means that worn or broken connecting leads are no longer a hazard. Given the negotiation that USB device interfaces have with their external power supplies, the risk of excessive currents is also removed.​

the actual maximum power delivered is controlled and cannot be exceeded, (a fuse or circuit breaker on a 230v distribution system will allow greater surges and in the case of fuse, up to 1.6x the rated value. Where several outlets are grouped, this permits excessive demands of the circuit to the detriment of other users. Thus user abuse is prevented with USB PD.​

The EMC requirements (including voltage surge and brown outs) for general 230v ac consumer use are sometimes costly to ensure on an EMU. The general deployment of compliant USB PD modules at each outlet removes the EMC requirement from the ac distribution network.​

Fire risk is also reduced with current limiting within the outlet device connection.​

For the above reasons, I believe that fully protected PD modules will be developed and carry an integration cost similar to installing plain 230v ac outlets*, where operators don't have the lethal voltage liabilities. their safety and legal departments will drive the move to SELV access only for the public.
As far as USB A outlets are concerned, there is no need for them in new or refitted coaches, - adaptors are available to consumers for less than £5 retail.
* just observe how 15W+ USB supplies have been added to mains sockets at very little additional cost.

Totally agree. You have much more elegantly and comprehensively explained some of the points I was trying to make in the original thread.

 

[Yorkshire09876]

I suspect that the railway in general is pleased that USB C has become a defacto standard that can be easily used by every smartphone user and almost all other devices such as tablets, laptops and headsets/earbuds. There's alway the potential for misuse of 13A sockets on trains and with USB C PD all the safety issues go away.

But the repair issues don't! USC-C sockets, even those designed for heavy use, are much more likely to get accidentally / deliberately damaged than a 3-pin socket is.

 

[AM9]

But the repair issues don't! USC-C sockets, even those designed for heavy use, are much more likely to get accidentally / deliberately damaged than a 3-pin socket is.

But the replacements will be part of normal maintenance. If there's too many damaged sockets, users will need to take other steps to keep their phones operating, until sockets are available. Type C (and micro D) usb receptacles are designed such that the cheap cable takes the wear, not the more expensive to replace socket. How many people have had their phone type C replaced during the life of the device, and how many more than once?

 

[Yorkshire09876]

But the replacements will be part of normal maintenance. If there's too many damaged sockets, users will need to take other steps to keep their phones operating, until sockets are available. Type C (and micro D) usb receptacles are designed such that the cheap cable takes the wear, not the more expensive to replace socket. How many people have had their phone type C replaced during the life of the device, and how many more than once?

People are likely to take more care with their own equipment. Also, if a cable is yanked and a phone is on the end, the phone will probably just fall on the floor, If it's a fixed socket or a heavier device it's likely to break connector / socket or both.

This is already an issue with laptops. Got a few at work where one of the sockets is now broken. Dell's latest models have connectors which are screwed rather than soldered to the motherboard, which will make things a bit easier (although the replacement process seems unnecessarily complicated and involves removing the motherboard).

While the plugs do get broken more often, the sockets certainly aren't immune!

 

[AM9]

People are likely to take more care with their own equipment. Also, if a cable is yanked and a phone is on the end, the phone will probably just fall on the floor, If it's a fixed socket or a heavier device it's likely to break connector / socket or both.

This is already an issue with laptops. Got a few at work where one of the sockets is now broken. Dell's latest models have connectors which are screwed rather than soldered to the motherboard, which will make things a bit easier (although the replacement process seems unnecessarily complicated and involves removing the motherboard).

While the plugs do get broken more often, the sockets certainly aren't immune!

It wouldn't be beyond the wit of fitment providers to design them with connector savers, - i.e. a short lead connecting the power module inside the enclosure to the front panel. Changing such a cable would easily become a non-electrician task during frequent servicing operations.

 

[Yew]

Are you suggesting that 3 pin sockets are done away with on safety grounds? We will definitely get to a point where this is possible as USB-C PD can handle up to 240W. USB-A may still have be provided as well just in case people have older devices they want to charge otherwise I can see people complaining about this, even in the early 2030s. I doubt all the ridiculous items people plug in on trains such as toasters, kettles and lamps will ever have anything other than a 3 pin plug for power.

If you have an older device, that charges with Micro USB, Lightning, etc, you can get a USB-C to (whatever your device has) cable relatively affordably. Realistically, these cables are consumables that degrade with use, so by the time HS2 is operational, there will have been plenty of time to make the switch.

 

[dosxuk]

It's trivial to deliberately damage a USB-C socket to the point of needing replacement and far harder to damage a 13A socket to the same degree.

 

[3rd rail land]

It's trivial to deliberately damage a USB-C socket to the point of needing replacement and far harder to damage a 13A socket to the same degree.

Agreed. I once saw a video of a relatively new London bus that had several USB ports damaged to the point of being unusable.

 

[AM9]

Agreed. I once saw a video of a relatively new London bus that has several USB ports damaged to the point of being unusable.

If all rail passengers are that deliquent/juvenile/careless that there is mass destruction to a (supposedly) valued amenity, then the railway might well just ignore them, - after all those who can't be bothered to ensure that they have whatever essential devices charges when travelling will just do the right thing instead of looking for someone else to blame.

 

[Noddy]

It's trivial to deliberately damage a USB-C socket to the point of needing replacement and far harder to damage a 13A socket to the same degree.

If someone wants to deliberately damage something they will, doesn’t matter whether it’s a usb or 3 pin connector. I could blow the entire 3 pin circuit in a couple of seconds with an interestingly wired socket, or make the individual socket unusable with a piece of plastic. Lumo even ask customers not to plug in anything other than a mobile device so the circuit isn’t blown.

What really matters is a) whether the damage just impacts the individual connector or does it have knock on consequences on the circuit, and b) how easily and cheaply it would be to replace. By the 2030s USB-C PD will be so ubiquitous across the entire world it’ll be much cheaper to install, maintain and replace than a UK+I specific 3 pin connector, especially in a bespoke railway environment.

 

[dosxuk]

I could blow the entire 3 pin circuit in a couple of seconds with an interestingly wired socket

Tripping any circuit protection is trivial to fix and could be done by on board staff

or make the individual socket unusable with a piece of plastic

This would probably require depot attention to repair, but could be done in a few minutes.

Basically any damage you can cause a 13A socket is either trivial to fix, or requires significant amounts of time and/or effort.

On the other hand, you can permanently break a USB-C socket with a tweezer blade such that it requires physical replacement.

 

[Noddy]

Tripping any circuit protection is trivial to fix and could be done by on board staff

It will keep tripping until they can identify where it is!

Basically any damage you can cause a 13A socket is either trivial to fix, or requires significant amounts of time and/or effort.

On the other hand, you can permanently break a USB-C socket with a tweezer blade such that it requires physical replacement.

I really don’t see the difference, if you want to vandalise a socket it’s easy enough to vandalise either with plastic and/or metal objects. But given that USB-C will be prevalent and every passenger train (+ many buses and potentially all planes) in the world will be using them in the 2030s there will be numerous suppliers and they’ll be incredibly cheap to replace. I don’t believe the same will ever be true of the UK type plug socket.