What is this penalty and can I appeal it?

[usualrailguy]

Hi all,

Approx 2 or so weeks ago, I was arriving for work at London Liv St from Hertfordshire on Greater Anglia, and upon touching my contactless card, it took payment but did not open. I asked the gate agent for help, but was instead taken to a revenue protection officer who claimed I had travelled without a valid ticket and was liable to pay a penalty fare + cost of ticket at over £60. Being late for work, I paid, but I always assumed penalty fares were sent home, and you paid them within a time period?

Anyhow, I have been trying to appeal this, but the only thing I was handed is this receipt of payment, which has very little information on it. What actually is this, and do I have any way of actually appealing the extra fare I paid?

The 21 day deadline is coming up next week so any urgent advice is appreciated. Thanks.

 

[skyhigh]

but I always assumed penalty fares were sent home, and you paid them within a time period?

No, a Penalty Fare is always issued in person.

What is on the other half of that receipt?

 

[Starmill]

Looks like you were issued a ticket there.

What station did you travel from?

 

[usualrailguy]

What is on the other half of that receipt?

It is an identical receipt, but a rejected payment because my card initially declined the payment.

Looks like you were issued a ticket there.

What station did you travel from?

I travelled in from Broxbourne, so usually a £13-14 fare?

 

[signed]

Looks like you were issued a ticket there.

Looks like they paid the penalty fare on the spot if that is correct

I travelled in from Broxbourne, so usually a £13-14 fare?

 

[CyrusWuff]

The Anytime Day Single from Broxbourne to London is £13.80 and a Penalty Fare paid on the spot would be another £50, making the £63.80 the OP paid.

However, even where a PF is paid in full at the time of issue, the RPI is still required to issue a PF Notice so you can appeal if you believe it was wrongly issued.

 

[Starmill]

If you weren't given a copy of the Penalty Fare, and you're absolutely certain you weren't, you should be able to win your appeal on this basis.

It might be quite difficult to appeal without the reference number but it's worth trying it. https://appealservice.co.uk/

 

[WesternLancer]

Surely lodging any kind of appeal within the 21 day period (eg using that web link in post 7) or to a written postal address with tracked postage then clears the way for the op to pursue all three stages of appeal (and anything beyond eg Transport Focus) with help from penalty fare experts here on what appeal wording to use.

Presume op’s bank card statement can confirm the exact sum paid on the day.

 

[Starmill]

Surely lodging any kind of appeal within the 21 day period (eg using that web link in post 7) or to a written postal address with tracked postage then clears the way for the op to pursue all three stages of appeal (and anything beyond eg Transport Focus) with help from penalty fare experts here on what appeal wording to use.

Presume op’s bank card statement can confirm the exact sum paid on the day.

Just explaining that they need to lodge the appeal and enclosing a copy of the receipt which the OP has posted the photo of ought to be adequate. The important thing is to get the message across before the deadline.

Tracing the Penalty Fare can be worked out in due course. It shouldn't be that difficult to check the record of every PF issued that day at London Liverpool Street by Greater Anglia and find the one that's the OP's. The card receipt even provides the time.

 

[AlterEgo]

So when GA inevitably say the OP was in fact issued a PF, what then?

 

[Watershed]

So when GA inevitably say the OP was in fact issued a PF, what then?

The burden of proof lies on the operator when it comes to disputed facts in a Penalty Fare appeal. Of course, that's on paper. In practice...

 

[AlterEgo]

The burden of proof lies on the operator when it comes to disputed facts in a Penalty Fare appeal. Of course, that's on paper. In practice...

In practice a panel realises anyone can say they didn't get the notice and there is rarely proof of receipt or otherwise. Entire PF system collapses if you allow appeals on this basis. It will be refused if you appeal on that ground, as we are dealing with the real world here.

 

[Starmill]

In practice a panel realises anyone can say they didn't get the notice and there is rarely proof of receipt or otherwise. Entire PF system collapses if you allow appeals on this basis. It will be refused if you appeal on that ground, as we are dealing with the real world here.

What's your suggestion? Don't appeal, allow the time to expire, thus guaranteeing no appeal can ever be lodged?

Of course you're correct it could be a difficult case. But the choice is between appeal and do nothing.

The next task is for OP to get their journey history on the TfL website. But there's absolutely no point doing that if they haven't appealed in time.

 

[Hadders]

@usualrailguy should check their journey history on the TfL website to see what they have been charged for the journey.

If what they’re saying is correct, that they touched their card, and payment was taken, but the gate didn’t open then the fare would have been paid and if they can evidence this the appeal should be successful. I’m not sure how they knew that payment had been taken but the journey history will show this (or not).

Interestingly, we’re told the initial card payment for the Penalty Fare was declined. Was this the same card they touched out with? If so, it could be that the card was blacklisted.

 

[furlong]

Ask for CCTV to be preserved immediately, before they delete it - with luck, this might confirm you were not handed anything except the payment receipt.

(2) Where a collector charges a penalty fare to a person under paragraph (1), the collector must provide that person with the following information in writing at the time the penalty fare is charged—
(a) a statement that the person is being charged a penalty fare;
(b) an explanation of why the person is being charged a penalty fare;
...
(e) the penalty fare number;
...

The appeals panel can check any CCTV and interview the person who issued it to ascertain their side of the story.

 

[usualrailguy]

Thank you all for your input, it is all very insightful.

I understand that I should get a move on in actually lodging the appeal. I take it this must be done via the website in post 7, but I can't access the online portal because I don't have a notice number. Is postal my only option? I am out of the country at the moment so not ideal, but will do if needed.

Also, just to understand, would I be appealing on the technical point of the inspector failing to meet the statutory obligations for issuing a valid PF? Surely if that is the case they can simply re-issue the PF properly this time?

Ask for CCTV to be preserved immediately, before they delete it - with luck, this might confirm you were not handed anything except the payment receipt.

Thanks for flagging this - would this be done via the appeals form/portal or a direct email?

 

[furlong]

Read the words in bold "in writing at the time". They cannot correct this retrospectively. If you weren't handed the proper notice, it wasn't valid. It's that simple. Your challenge is forcing them to accept that this is the truth and you weren't given it but discarded it. If what you say is true, it may be the case that this particular inspector has a habit of regularly doing the same wrong thing and it might have been flagged up previously and colleagues could also be interviewed to see if they observed this if the inspector denies it and CCTV is inconclusive.

 

[Chrius56000]

. . .To me that looks like an irregularity on the part of the R.P.I. that dealt with the O.P., what (I suspect !) he has done is mentally added a £50 "penalty fare" to the Anytime Day Single price of the O.P.'s fare, and in doing so he has broken THREE of the Penalty Fare Conditions :–

a) The "Receipt" does not state AT ALL that a Penalty Fare was issued ;

b) The Penalty Fare Regulations require the Identity of the R.P.I. or Train Manager/Conductor who issued it to be included on the Penalty Fare Receipt – A letter/number I.D. in coded form is acceptable as this is traceable ;

c) The slip DOES NOT clearly state the O.P.'s right to appeal and how to do this !

. . .The O.P. need to kick up two stinks, the first to whoever administers G.A.'s Penalty Fares with both an Appeal, emphasising this IS an appeal with a photo of this "ticket receipt".

. . .The second stink should go to G.A. Customer Services AND their Prosecution Department, with a complaint and a copy of this "ticket receipt" that someone has tried to charge you a "Penalty Fare by the Back Door", as it were and insist on the matter being closed with no further action other than payment of the £13.80 Anytime Fare which has already been taken by this member of staff, plus a refund of the extra £50 !

PS!

. . .Was your boarding station within the P.A.Y G./Contactless area?

. . .If it was and you "tapped in" and correctly "tapped out", then you should have a Bank Transaction for £13.80 on that day or a record of the Journey History from TfL – if you have either of these then you are entitled to insist on G.A. refunding the whole lot the R.P.I./Gate Line member of Staff took from you!
.

 

[AlterEgo]

What's your suggestion? Don't appeal, allow the time to expire, thus guaranteeing no appeal can ever be lodged?

Of course you're correct it could be a difficult case. But the choice is between appeal and do nothing.

The next task is for OP to get their journey history on the TfL website. But there's absolutely no point doing that if they haven't appealed in time.

It's for the appeal to be made on whichever grounds the OP felt the notice was unfairly issued in the first place; they don't state their grounds for appeal in their post. I don't think a panel will accept "I wasn't given a notice", because we all know they will not play detective in looking at CCTV or seeing if the RPI has complaints about them not issuing notices before. That will waste the OP's time; I am certain that's a dead end no matter how frustrating we will all find it.

They should find out their TfL journey history to check if any fare was paid, firstly. And if so, an appeal should be made on the grounds the fare was paid.

. . .To me that looks like an irregularity on the part of the R.P.I. that dealt with the O.P., what (I suspect !) he has done is mentally added a £50 "penalty fare" to the Anytime Day Single price of the O.P.'s fare, and in doing so he has broken THREE of the Penalty Fare Conditions

That doesn't appear to be likely, or possible - you can't just add £50 a ticket value like that off hand. It is much more likely that they charged the OP a penalty fare.

a) The "Receipt" does not state AT ALL that a Penalty Fare was issued

It doesn't have to. This is not a Penalty Fare Notice.

b) The Penalty Fare Regulations require the Identity of the R.P.I. or Train Manager/Conductor who issued it to be included on the Penalty Fare Receipt – A letter/number I.D. in coded form is acceptable as this is traceable ;

Not correct; they require the identity to be included on the *notice*; this is the receipt.

c) The slip DOES NOT clearly state the O.P.'s right to appeal and how to do this !

It wouldn't, because as we've seen, it's a receipt and not a notice.

. . .The O.P. need to kick up two stinks, the first to whoever administers G.A.'s Penalty Fares with both an Appeal, emphasising this IS an appeal with a photo of this "ticket receipt".

. . .The second stink should go to G.A. Customer Services AND their Prosecution Department, with a complaint and a copy of this "ticket receipt" that someone has tried to charge you a "Penalty Fare by the Back Door", as it were and insist on the matter being closed with no further action other than payment of the £13.80 Anytime Fare which has already been taken by this member of staff, plus a refund of the extra £50 !

Why do you think this is more likely than a PF being charged as normal, and either:

a) the RPI forgetting or neglecting to hand the Notice to the customer because the amount was paid there and then, or
b) the RPI handed the Notice to the customer and it has then been mislaid in the intervening two weeks?

PS!

. . .Was your boarding station within the P.A.Y G./Contactless area?

 

[usualrailguy]

Thanks again to all for the posts.

I can definitely confirm that this is all that I received (even though I understand it may be difficult to prove). For what it is worth, the inspector was very nonchalant about the whole matter - he typed something up on his handheld device, told me the amount, and held out the reader to pay. I was then given this printed receipt, and told to show it to the gate agent to be allowed to exit, which I did. I appreciate that the two-week period does not help as it may suggest I misplaced the PF notice (I have been very busy with work so have not had time to get round to this), but as I can say with complete certainty I was issued nothing except this. I did not ask for the inspectors name or any other details as I have never been issued such a notice before, and only became more familarised with the appeals process after getting home that evening.

I'd be happy for CCTV footage to be reviewed if that would help the case, but I appreciate the appeals body may not go through the faff of all this.

Broxbourne certainly is PAYG - I will check my TFL history though to ensure what has already been paid.

 

[AlterEgo]

Broxbourne certainly is PAYG - I will check my TFL history though to ensure what has already been paid.

If you find the fare has been paid this makes the appeal extremely simple for you, so let's hope it bears some fruit!

 

[usualrailguy]

If you find the fare has been paid this makes the appeal extremely simple for you, so let's hope it bears some fruit!

Thanks - just finally, would I need to make the appeal by post if I do not have a PF notice number, or is there some way to get around this? As mentioned above I am currently out of the UK so post may be a bit faffy and I'd prefer doing it online.

 

[enyoueffsea]

Worth noting the 21 day deadline appears to be next Tuesday.

Unless the OP can get an appeal sent on Monday by post, recorded next day delivery, they will be out of time.

With the OP being out of the country, I’m not sure that will be possible.

 

[Chrius56000]

. . .You should still do it online and include a scan of that "ticket receipt" and insist that you weren't handed anything else by the R.P.I., and ask that the matter is dealt with as an appeal!

. . .I certainly would ask G.A's Prosecution Department whether you should have been handed an Official Penalty Fare Notice at the Gate Line – the fact is, you have paid £63.80 to SOMEONE claiming to be official, who has failed to give you a satisfactory explanation as to what its a payment for – did you check for emails from G.A. that might have given you a reference number regarding this incident?

 

[enyoueffsea]

. . .You should still do it online and include a scan of that "ticket receipt" and insist that you weren't handed anything else by the R.P.I., and ask the after is dealt with as an appeal!

. . .I certainly would ask G.A's Prosecution Department whether should have been handed an Official Penalty Fare Notice at the Gate Line – the fact is, you have paid £63.80 to SOMEONE who has failed to give you a satisfactory explanation as to what its for – did you check for emails from G.A. that might have given you a reference number regarding this incident?

You can only appeal online if you have the reference number.

 

[Chrius56000]

. . . Quote whatever numbers appear on that receipt under "AID" and "Ref" in your communication to Greater Anglia and ask them for an explanation IN WRITING as to what the payment was taken for – if G.A.'s (or somebody else's!) Gateline Staff have tried to issue a P.F. by this means "via the back door", you still have a cause for complaint, and an emphatic one at that!

 

[enyoueffsea]

. . .Quite whatever number appears on that receipt under "AID" and "Ref" in your communication to Greater Anglia and ask them for an explanation IN WRITING as to what the payment was taken for – if G.A.'s (or somebody else's!) Gateline have tried to issue a P.F. by this means "via the back door", you still have a cause for complaint, and an emphatic one at that!

It will not be able to find the PFN without adding in the correct reference number and therefore will give the OP an error message if they use a random number.

 

[usualrailguy]

I wasn't aware that posting is the only way possible to raise the appeal if there's no notice number, so thanks for flagging this. I can get it posted on Monday but it will take 4-5 business days to arrive (so likely 3-4 days after the 21 day limit).

I suppose its still worth a shot, but would also appreciate if anyone has advice on alternative/digital ways of ensuring the complaint is logged in time.

 

[island]

The law presumes a letter posted first class arrives two days after posting, so post the letter over the counter at a post office and get a receipt.

You could also send it Special Delivery Guaranteed which carries an extra cost.

 

[enyoueffsea]

Do you have anyone in England who could post it for you if you send the above photograph (without redactions) and a letter to lodge an appeal?

“Alternatively, you can appeal by sending a written appeal to AS, Regus, Building 1000 Lakeside, Western Road, Portsmouth, PO6 3EZ giving as much information as possible to enable the AS team to search for your notice details.

Please include details of the date, time and place where your journey began and ended and the passenger details given at the time of issue.”