How Viable are Preserved Railways?

[tram21]

As a Crich volunteer, I'd say we're doing pretty well, following a few years of low visitor numbers this year has been pretty good.

We see a very large number of foreign visitors, especially in the summer, and I'm sure it being such a unique place is a draw for many people. The peak district is also a popular tourist destination, so its not too far out of the way.

Volunteer wise we are doing worse, but only really because of people growing old, we are still attracting a large number of new volunteers, quite a few of which are younger!

 

[Belperpete]

This is where the MHRs 150 is going to be interesting. Is it heritage? I'd say not yet. But I can understand the why behind getting it - with 1125 out for the foreseeable, and coal prices being so high, they need something. I was speaking to some of the team when they had a open day for 1125, and they said how cheap it was to run diesel over steam.

Diesel is cheaper to run than steam if you only consider fuel costs. However, for older diesels in particular, getting replacement parts can be tricky and very expensive, as they are often very complex castings requiring intricate machining. They can be difficult to replicate if you don't have the necessary patterns and toolings.

I would hope that any line with a vintage dmu is keeping a beedy eye on spares availability, and building up stocks before they become impossible to obtain - which will cost money. I have no idea what power unit a 150 uses, let alone the availability of spares - it probably isn't an issue now, but it inevitably will be.

With loco hauled stock, if the motive power fails, you just put a replacement loco on the front. However, if a DMU fails, you need to have another DMU or set of coaches on hand to cover while the failed DMU is out of service. So a line relying on DMUs is likely to be spending relatively more on coach maintenance than a line running equivalent length loco hauled services.

 

[JGurney]

... implications for heritage railways. There are a lot of people now taking kids to them because of fond childhood memories, which were prompted by their parents nostalgia for steam on the national network. .... For a line that is struggling any significant number of parents in the catchment area without previous experience of heritage railways is major problem ...

When in my first post in the thread I asked about identified reasons for the decline in visitors, most early answers identified a combination of rising operating costs and therefore fares plus falling disposable incomes leading to frustrated demand: that the issue was people still wanted to visit heritage railways but were finding it harder to afford rising fares.

The later answers are suggesting that the problem is a fall in interest in visiting heritage railways regardless of the cost, rather than frustrated demand.

Another thread discussed whether the declining numbers of people with personal memories of steam in service might lead to more interest in older diesel traction, and the majority of 'insiders' replied that steam remains the big attraction even with those who never saw it in service.

Does anyone know of any systematic market research into these sorts of issues? Do fewer people take an interest, or is cost the big problem? Do older visitors come to see trains like those they recall from their youth, or to see steam even if they never saw it as children?

 

[Nym]

Diesel is cheaper to run than steam if you only consider fuel costs. However, for older diesels in particular, getting replacement parts can be tricky and very expensive, as they are often very complex castings requiring intricate machining. They can be difficult to replicate if you don't have the necessary patterns and toolings.

I would hope that any line with a vintage dmu is keeping a beedy eye on spares availability, and building up stocks before they become impossible to obtain - which will cost money. I have no idea what power unit a 150 uses, let alone the availability of spares - it probably isn't an issue now, but it inevitably will be.

With loco hauled stock, if the motive power fails, you just put a replacement loco on the front. However, if a DMU fails, you need to have another DMU or set of coaches on hand to cover while the failed DMU is out of service. So a line relying on DMUs is likely to be spending relatively more on coach maintenance than a line running equivalent length loco hauled services.

Class 150 uses the same spares as the 156 and to an extent the 155 and 153.

Engines can continue to be overhauled by Wabtec Barton (Formally LH Group) and some upstart competitors. ROSCOs also have a habit of releasing spares to those in need to assist.

 

[Belperpete]

When in my first post in the thread I asked about identified reasons for the decline in visitors, most early answers identified a combination of rising operating costs and therefore fares plus falling disposable incomes leading to frustrated demand: that the issue was people still wanted to visit heritage railways but were finding it harder to afford rising fares.

The later answers are suggesting that the problem is a fall in interest in visiting heritage railways regardless of the cost, rather than frustrated demand.

Another thread discussed whether the declining numbers of people with personal memories of steam in service might lead to more interest in older diesel traction, and the majority of 'insiders' replied that steam remains the big attraction even with those who never saw it in service.

Does anyone know of any systematic market research into these sorts of issues? Do fewer people take an interest, or is cost the big problem?

There is a big market for visiting heritage attractions in general. I doubt that many people have memories of living in a castle or stately home, but they go to visit them. I wonder how such attractions are faring?

There are undoubtedly people who go to visit a particular line to see a particular type of stock, but that must be a very small percentage. Most of the general population have hardly ever travelled by train in their whole lives, and on those few occasions when they did, may not have found it an experience they would want to relive. I think preserved railways are increasingly going to have to market themselves as heritage attractions and/or tourist attractions, rather than as preserved railways. Effectively, they are competing with the likes of the National Trust and Alton Towers for almost all their custom.

I suspect that one reason that preserved railways and other heritage attractions see a much smaller percentage of visitors with an immigrant background, is that they identify less with this country's heritage. It is noticeable how few walkers and hikers you encounter with an ethnic background, for example.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Aug 2025 ==

Engines can continue to be overhauled by Wabtec Barton (Formally LH Group) and some upstart competitors. ROSCOs also have a habit of releasing spares to those in need to assist.

Someone who is maintaining these engines professionally for TOCs is likely to charge a preserved railway the same kind of money, so is not going to be cheap. Whereas a lot of steam loco work is done by unpaid volunteers.

 

[Trainlog]

One significant issue is the location of preserved lines relative to major population centres.

A greater proportion of lines that were closed for economic reasons in the 50 years after WW2 are in rural areas, and while some lines were closed in urban areas, they were often short branches unsuitable for preservation or routes that were later reserved for other uses such as conversion to new roads, greenways, cycle routes or light rail. However, visitors and volunteers are likely to be more numerous in large conurbations.

The only preserved heavy rail line within 30 miles of where I live, on the edge of Greater Manchester, is the East Lancashire Railway (ELR), and even that is nearly 1 hour away by car. However, it seemed busy when I visited on an off peak Sunday 3 years ago, and didn't seem short of staff, many of whom I presume were volunteers.

The future of lines like the ELR and KWVR (in the West Yorkshire conurbation) is likely to be rosier than that of lines in more remote countryside, particularly those without a unique selling point or who unfortunately suffer an infrastructure calamity.

I think you have hit the nail on the head for the reason why neutral audiences might not attend heritage railways as opposed to other historical attractions. I would also couple the idea of poor advertising as people aren't typically aware of heritage railways' existence in comparison to other attractions; however, I will add that it is starting to get a little better. The KESR last year did start putting ads out for their 50th anniversary gala on buses.

My solutions

• More physical advertisements that could be placed about heritage lines at national rail stations or motorway billboards. The idea should be to make sure the neutral public is aware of the existence of heritage railways. This could be expanded further by having adverts in museums such as the London Transport Museum telling the public where they can see running heritage trains.
• Heritage railways are already displayed on the Network Southeast map, by simply adding a small logo of a steam locomotive could help bring attention to the lines existence on this map. Currently, the map only shows heritage railways as a black line with the name of the heritage railway next to it - it hardly brings any attention to their existence on the map.

If the London Underground wants more revenue, how about sticking a small steam loco logo on the maps that show Epping for the Epping Ongar railway, they seem to be taking sponsorships for the Waterloo and City so I don't see how this would be a problem for a small icon addition.


There are reasons to be optimistic
1.)

6989 Wightwick Hall to become the latest 'Hogwarts Castle' for new Harry Potter series

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1jwznl8d45o A steam locomotive that was saved from being scrapped will star in the upcoming Harry Potter TV reboot. Volunteers from Buckinghamshire Railway Centre spent 40 years restoring Wightwick Hall after it was salvaged from a scrapyard in Barry...

www.railforums.co.uk

Apologies for plugging one of my threads. However, an operational Hall class in Hogwarts castle livery will do wonders for the preservation scene, especially as social media is much more prevalent since the film series finished in 2011. Could it be a bigger crowd puller than Flying Scotsman? Who's to say yet.

2.) The hype towards this loco seems to have fallen off a bit, but the P2, once it is operational will definitely be a crowd puller aswell for enthusiasts and its rather distinctive shape would definitely prove to be popular with enthusiasts and the public, especially on the mainline.

One final point I would like to bring up

Could some smaller standard gauge preserved lines (3 miles or less?) be converted into narrow gauge or 15-inch gauge lines? On paper its still a steam railway; most of the roles will stay in place, just adapted for the narrow gauge line. Coal problem more or less, is a lower issue than standard gauge and if the line is in an area with many standard gauge neighbours it would stand out as different in a good way.

 

[BlueLeanie]

A growing problem is that youngsters today are reared on computers
They have no affinity or recollection of engines, steam or diesel

Where have you been?

There were computers before then of course, but the reality is that computers have been part of modern domestic life for "youngsters" since the phrase

(C) 1982 Sinclair Research

Appeared on domestic TV sets 43 years ago.

It was just 14 years from the end of steam to home computers being accessible to all, and it's 3x that long since home computers were accessible to all.

Something that may have been missed too. Some of the heritage "experience" is a bit rubbish.

The last heritage line I visited was for a Santa Special. It was fully loaded, which was good, Santa was good, Santa's helpers were good. Couldn't fault the pantomime of the experience.

But

Windows were filthy, carriage was chilly, windows steamed up quickly.

The fabric of the carriage had definitely seen better days.

Return journey was almost complete by the time the trolley arrived with nothing left and three carriages still left to go through.

The station toilets were very worn (but clean) and Baltic, I could see the steam rise as I took the opportunity. No hot water to wash hands.

The Station shop wasn't exactly well stocked, and if a bag was required for the purchases, it was recycled B&M or a pharmacy prescription bag brought in by the eco-minded volunteers. I've driven 100 miles to get here, paid for a hotel room, sat behind a coal fired train, and now you want to save the planet with a torn pharmacy bag? Sell me a paper bag with handles for 50p, a Bag for life" for £3 or a canvas tote for £10! I'm here and ready to spend.

The permanent way needed a real tidy up, and for goodness sake hide the rough rolling stock behind the pretty stuff.

With the expansion of the town a long part of the journey was backing onto commercial space and new housing estates. Maybe plant something?

 

[Deepgreen]

As a Crich volunteer, I'd say we're doing pretty well, following a few years of low visitor numbers this year has been pretty good.

We see a very large number of foreign visitors, especially in the summer, and I'm sure it being such a unique place is a draw for many people. The peak district is also a popular tourist destination, so its not too far out of the way.

Volunteer wise we are doing worse, but only really because of people growing old, we are still attracting a large number of new volunteers, quite a few of which are younger!

Crich is exceptional in that it is a tramway working museum and has enough 'general' heritage/historical infrastructure (street scene, buildings, etc.) to attract even those without a huge railway interest. I love Crich (as did my father) and think it has a unique place in UK preservation that should see it survive relatively unscathed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Aug 2025 ==

Further to my earlier comments, I perceive that the overall rail enthusiam base market has been dwindling for years/decades, although still strong, which means that the supply of people wanting to use heritage railways is also dropping. All this is at a time when it seems that more and more heritage operations are appearing (or trying to), or are attempting extensions, etc. Add on the post-Covid effect and there is a graph to be drawn where the supply/funds line is heading down, while the ambition/cost line is heading up. There is also the question of donations (including for the building of the 'missing links' in steam preservation), which previously might have included large sums from wealthy retirees who lived with steam, but now that source is also drying up

Again, all just my theories.

 

[geoffk]

​

I think this is discussed in a separate thread, but some heritage railways also provide engineering services to the “big railway”, including charter train operators and Network Rail. Other services include storage of new or withdrawn rolling stock, testing of new stock and driver/signaller training. Some commercial freight is occasionally carried. This must contribute useful additional income, or in some cases, "payment in kind" e.g. provision of an extra siding for use by the heritage railway. Of course narrow gauge lines are less likely to benefit from this source of income.

 

[Towers]

​

I think this is discussed in a separate thread, but some heritage railways also provide engineering services to the “big railway”, including charter train operators and Network Rail. Other services include storage of new or withdrawn rolling stock, testing of new stock and driver/signaller training. Some commercial freight is occasionally carried. This must contribute useful additional income, or in some cases, "payment in kind" e.g. provision of an extra siding for use by the heritage railway. Of course narrow gauge lines are less likely to benefit from this source of income.

Indeed, I understand that the Bluebell hosts tamper crews periodically, which presumably results in their own infrastructure receiving commercial-grade maintanance in this area.

I do wonder whether some of the more engineering-intense heritage lines might look to embrace government apprenticeship schemes. An awful lot of safeguarding and other work is required of course, but the result could be beneficial to the heritage sector as well an British industrial expertise in general. Of course, lines are unlikely to want to employ the apprentices, but perhaps there could be opportunities to work alongside local businesses who do, essentially operating as education centres?

 

[frankmoh]

See, to me, it would be out of service trains you can't get on anymore in regular service.

This is where the MHRs 150 is going to be interesting. Is it heritage? I'd say not yet. But I can understand the why behind getting it - with 1125 out for the foreseeable, and coal prices being so high, they need something. I was speaking to some of the team when they had a open day for 1125, and they said how cheap it was to run diesel over steam.

But can a 150 draw people in?

The thing is that 150s are still in service! It would attract railfans no doubt but probably not the average person.

For instance, my dad remembers a time when the Pacers and Sprinters were new trains, compared to all the First Generation DMUs.

 

[eldomtom2]

Does anyone know of any systematic market research into these sorts of issues? Do fewer people take an interest, or is cost the big problem? Do older visitors come to see trains like those they recall from their youth, or to see steam even if they never saw it as children?

I haven't heard of any market research on this topic - if there is I think it would have been brought up in one of these threads, but so far it's been mainly anecdotes and speculation, which absolutely has its place but perhaps isn't enough to justify all the doom and gloom we're seeing.

 

[Skymonster]

There are simply too many heritage railways in this country, resulting in paying attendance being spread thinly. While the East Midlands may be exceptional, I can think of the following within an hour or less driving distance of me: Great Central, Great Central North, Peak Rail, Ecclesborne Valley, Midland Railway Centre, Foxfield, Churnet Valley… A bit further away: Telford Steam Railway, Northampton & Lamport, Keighley and Worth, Middleton… Then narrower gauge there’s Amerton, Apedale, Statfold Barn, Steeple Grange, Crowle… I’m sure I’ve forgotten a few more. Many people have less money to spend at the moment - how many visits to preserved railways will they make?

I notice demographics of those attending seems to to be families / grandparents with younger kids, or older people, predominantly. The early teenagers just don’t seem to be there - too busy playing with computers or into sport I suspect, or they prefer to pester their parents to take them theme parks like Alton Towers. And if it wasn’t for things like Thomas and Potter, I don’t think there’d be as much enthusiast among the younger kids either. Older people are slowly disappearing, and today’s middle age doesn’t identify with heritage railways so much as the generation before - perhaps because they didn’t spend their youth at railway stations with an Ian Allan book.

Operating costs are increasing, and in many cases revenue isn’t increasing [as quickly]. While I accept that operating and capital budgets are often separate, there are plenty of heritage railways perusing grandiose schemes that don’t stand a chance of delivering a return on investment. They are in some cases multi-million pound businesses, and they need to have a business-based focus on costs and expenditure if they’re not going to end up chucking [scarce] money at projects that don’t have a major impact / appeal to the people coming through the door.

Then there’s volunteers. Most heritage railways would collapse pretty quickly without volunteers as they simply couldn’t afford to pay all their staff. People with spare time on their hands to give are predominantly older, but many of them now have to work to a greater age. By the time they have got time to give to a railway, some of them are less able to do so physically. There are some youngsters (late teens) coming in but the barriers to getting do the really interesting jobs can be pretty daunting. And then they start earning money and want to spend it on other things, or they get a full time job, or start a family…

It all comes back to where I started. There are too many heritage railways, most doing the same things. While this will result in some sucking of teeth, I will say it: I think some need to go for the greater good of the whole industry.

 

[Krokodil]

Newer generations want something else

Do they? The latest generation was brought up on Thomas and Harry Potter. Steam trains are seen as something special. Heritage diesel enthusiasm is a niche, most 'normals' couldn't tell the difference between a class 50 and the class 150 they take to work.

Heritage railway accounts are not like normal business accounts. Commercial busineses aim to make as much profit as possible to pay to the owners or shareholders. Preserved railways generally don't pay a dividend. If there looks like being a surplus, they can always find something to spend it on. I think most preserved railways budget to break even, with a bit of surplus as leeway.

Well yes, but from the tone of the Chairman's report it was clear that there is concern going forward because such a small margin will be easily eaten away - NI rises are forecast to cost the FfWHR £300k.

One significant issue is the location of preserved lines relative to major population centres.

Again I'm not so sure. The Severn Valley is in reach of the West Midlands, the Bluebell is in London's commuter belt. Whereas the Ffestiniog is in the back end of beyond and is doing much better.

Diesel is cheaper to run than steam if you only consider fuel costs. However, for older diesels in particular, getting replacement parts can be tricky and very expensive, as they are often very complex castings requiring intricate machining. They can be difficult to replicate if you don't have the necessary patterns and toolings.

DMUs will be less affected because Leyland 680 parts should still be plentiful (no idea about the AEC equivalent). As some DMU groups fold due to aging volunteers the remainder benefit from the spares as vehicles get scrapped. Bit of a shame but we're not generally talking about rare stuff here, it's 101s and 108s. I do remember going to Caerwent when I was a kid to recover components from scrap FNW 101s.

With loco hauled stock, if the motive power fails, you just put a replacement loco on the front. However, if a DMU fails, you need to have another DMU or set of coaches on hand to cover while the failed DMU is out of service. So a line relying on DMUs is likely to be spending relatively more on coach maintenance than a line running equivalent length loco hauled services.

Always assuming that you've got a spare loco. You can just as easily swap out a DMU power car. And of course a DMU can get you home on one engine. A loco on the other hand will require recovery.

 

[frankmoh]

In terms of standard gauge railways near London, you really only have the choice of the Epping-Ongar Railway or Spa Valley Railway. For me Bluebell is a bit too far, although obviously it's doable for a day trip.

And if a 1986 Class 150/2 counts as heritage nowadays then surely the 1972 Bakerloo stock should be as well!

 

[Belperpete]

When you say "doing relatively well" do you mean financially, or in terms of visitor numbers? I suspect that the KWVR might be faring better financially because it has few (if any?) paid staff. The increase in wage costs was a common comment in the accounts that I looked at. Do you have any figures for the KWVR?

The latest accounts that I can find for the KWVR are for 2023. It appears that I was wrong about it having very few staff - the accounts say 23 paid staff. In 2023 it made a profit of just under £30k, about 1% of turnover. This sounds reasonably healthy, until you dig a little deeper and discover that nearly £430k of its income was from donations and legacies. Without those, the line would have made a £400k loss. It looks like they are being kept afloat by a significant amount of donations and legacies. How sustainable that is in the long term must be questionable.

 

[Krokodil]

nearly £430k of its income was from donations and legacies.

Yes, that's not truly income is it? Donations and legacies should be used to fund capital projects (and possibly disaster relief like at the SVR and GWSR), not routine running costs. That's not sustainable.

 

[Belperpete]

I haven't heard of any market research on this topic - if there is I think it would have been brought up in one of these threads, but so far it's been mainly anecdotes and speculation, which absolutely has its place but perhaps isn't enough to justify all the doom and gloom we're seeing.

Anecdotal feelings about how busy a line is can be very misleading. On a recent thread one contributor thought that a GCR gala was busy, whereas I had thought it comparatively quiet. I raised this thread so we could look at the actual figures, although very few seem to have been forthcoming. Those that I have found may not justify doom and gloom, but they are not exactly encouraging.

 

[eldomtom2]

The latest accounts that I can find for the KWVR are for 2023. It appears that I was wrong about it having very few staff - the accounts say 23 paid staff. In 2023 it made a profit of just under £30k, about 1% of turnover. This sounds reasonably healthy, until you dig a little deeper and discover that nearly £430k of its income was from donations and legacies. Without those, the line would have made a £400k loss. It looks like they are being kept afloat by a significant amount of donations and legacies. How sustainable that is in the long term must be questionable.

Well, most charities survive on donations, grants, and legacies. There must be a great many charities that operate visitor attractions that don't break even from admissions and the gift shop, and have not done so for many decades - I used to be involved with a zoo operated by a charity, and from what I remember it definitely didn't make enough money from admissions and the gift shop to pay its hefty operating costs.

 

[sh24]

The latest accounts that I can find for the KWVR are for 2023. It appears that I was wrong about it having very few staff - the accounts say 23 paid staff. In 2023 it made a profit of just under £30k, about 1% of turnover. This sounds reasonably healthy, until you dig a little deeper and discover that nearly £430k of its income was from donations and legacies. Without those, the line would have made a £400k loss. It looks like they are being kept afloat by a significant amount of donations and legacies. How sustainable that is in the long term must be questionable.

The accounts on Companies House for the total Group show a surplus of £298,832 for the 2023 FY, backed by a bulletproof balance sheet with £4.8m of fixed assets including £780,000 of investments and a further £1m of cash, and there is no debt.

The £428K of donations includes £76K of memberships, so retains those, zero the donations entirely and the KWVR is losing £54K a year. it would take 19 years at that rate just to burn though its cash balance.

That is a very very heathy looking business.

 

[Titfield]

Anecdotal feelings about how busy a line is can be very misleading. On a recent thread one contributor thought that a GCR gala was busy, whereas I had thought it comparatively quiet. I raised this thread so we could look at the actual figures, although very few seem to have been forthcoming. Those that I have found may not justify doom and gloom, but they are not exactly encouraging.

Heritage Railways are very reluctant to provide hard data. I suspect because they fear comparison and thus criticism. They seem to prefer to use highly ambiguous statements such as “met our expectations” “in line with budget” “broadly similar with last year”. Some of the key differentiating factors between heritage railways is what proportion of the asset base is owned and what is rented / leased. Swanage Railway for example owns very little and rents / leases everything else. How big is the wage bill relative to income or turnover? How much of the rolling stock overhaul is done paid staff in-house or volunteer staff in-house or outsourced to a third party eg Ramparts. How efficient is the use of assets especially leased / rented rolling stock. Is the rent based purely on usage eg by miles or days or simply a set figure irrespective of use age. Are the full time paid staff productively employed year round or is little accomplished in the winter (excl Xmas) closed period.
Many heritage railway staff (paid and volunteer) plus supporters get very agitated when money is mentioned often confusing the expressions run as a business and run in a business like way. Historically too much money has been drained out of the railway by poor project management,over ambitious plans and saving stock mania.

 

[renegademaster]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Aug 2025 ==

The latest accounts that I can find for the KWVR are for 2023. It appears that I was wrong about it having very few staff - the accounts say 23 paid staff. In 2023 it made a profit of just under £30k, about 1% of turnover. This sounds reasonably healthy, until you dig a little deeper and discover that nearly £430k of its income was from donations and legacies. Without those, the line would have made a £400k loss. It looks like they are being kept afloat by a significant amount of donations and legacies. How sustainable that is in the long term must be questionable.

Don't heritage railways engineer with little £1 add ons for most ticket sales to be donations, to claim the gift aid?

 

[BlueLeanie]

Heritage Railways are very reluctant to provide hard data. I suspect because they fear comparison and thus criticism. They seem to prefer to use highly ambiguous statements such as “met our expectations” “in line with budget” “broadly similar with last year”. Some of the key differentiating factors between heritage railways is what proportion of the asset base is owned and what is rented / leased. Swanage Railway for example owns very little and rents / leases everything else. How big is the wage bill relative to income or turnover? How much of the rolling stock overhaul is done paid staff in-house or volunteer staff in-house or outsourced to a third party eg Ramparts. How efficient is the use of assets especially leased / rented rolling stock. Is the rent based purely on usage eg by miles or days or simply a set figure irrespective of use age. Are the full time paid staff productively employed year round or is little accomplished in the winter (excl Xmas) closed period.
Many heritage railway staff (paid and volunteer) plus supporters get very agitated when money is mentioned often confusing the expressions run as a business and run in a business like way. Historically too much money has been drained out of the railway by poor project management,over ambitious plans and saving stock mania.

Those aren't ambiguous statements, they are clear terms used by organisations reporting their performance using professional accountants.

Never forget the benefit of a peppercorn lease either. There are a few private owners and collectors who are very generous in their stock leases. It's a massive benefit to.a railway if an enthusiast will lend them the use of a single or a rake of coaches for a pittance instead of trying to acquire them themselves.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Aug 2025 ==

The latest accounts that I can find for the KWVR are for 2023. It appears that I was wrong about it having very few staff - the accounts say 23 paid staff. In 2023 it made a profit of just under £30k, about 1% of turnover.

So their merchant company made the same or more money from the business than they did.

 

[gingerheid]

1) Cost of energy - particularly as a result of Russia, compounded as a result of bad political choices over decades.

2) Staff Costs - yes, national insurance and minimum wage requirements, mandatory pension enrollment etc has had a huge impact - but even volunteers are expensive now, as the cost of insurance, training etc has also risen considerably. There are also less people able to volunteer regularly, even if they wanted to - younger people simply don't have the time to volunteer, and most cannot afford to - a part time weekend job helps them to pay the bills, volunteering does not.

3) Cost of living, inflation effects etc with the obvious effects.

4) Changing demographic of the UK - regardless of what side of the debate you sit on, the demographics of the UK are changing, either as a result of age or nationality. I think it's absolutely fair to say that some of these demographics would simply not even think to visit a heritage railway - particularly where alcohol "real ale" etc is a significant contributor to the income of these railways. White British is generally the overwhelming demographic that visits heritage railways and maybe more could be done to try and expand that appeal.

All these, and also increased competition among attractions. I'm certainly aware that I spend less on leisure activities in the UK than I might if low cost airlines weren't a thing. A couple of days out to not particularly distant heritage railways would easily top £200. Or I could have an overnight trip to somewhere on the Ryanair low fare finder...

 

[BlueLeanie]

All these, and also increased competition among attractions. I'm certainly aware that I spend less on leisure activities in the UK than I might if low cost airlines weren't a thing. A couple of days out to not particularly distant heritage railways would easily top £200. Or I could have an overnight trip to somewhere on the Ryanair low fare finder...

You're missing the other part. Right up until 2009, Many of the market towns where you'd find a heritage railway had certain reliable things there or nearby.

Free parking
Public toilets.
Woolworths
Family bakery
Bookshop
Park with swings (and more public toilets)
Other mid-range independent and national chains of shops.

Parents had it so easy! I'd be content with making up a small bag of pick 'n mix, then onto the train, have a wander round another small village, probably buy a Panda Pop or a Sparkle and DC Thomson summer special comic from a Newsagent that also sold toys, then back on the train, a look at the bookshop, play in the park, a wee in spotlessly clean loos with an attendant, cake or chips, then home happy.

 

[Krokodil]

The accounts on Companies House for the total Group show a surplus of £298,832 for the 2023 FY, backed by a bulletproof balance sheet with £4.8m of fixed assets including £780,000 of investments and a further £1m of cash, and there is no debt.

The £428K of donations includes £76K of memberships, so retains those, zero the donations entirely and the KWVR is losing £54K a year. it would take 19 years at that rate just to burn though its cash balance.

That is a very very heathy looking business.

They mustn't become complacent though, costs are rising all the time.

 

[Western Gaffer]

One final point I would like to bring up

Could some smaller standard gauge preserved lines (3 miles or less?) be converted into narrow gauge or 15-inch gauge lines? On paper its still a steam railway; most of the roles will stay in place, just adapted for the narrow gauge line. Coal problem more or less, is a lower issue than standard gauge and if the line is in an area with many standard gauge neighbours it would stand out as different in a good way.

But surely a conversion exercise like that would be hugely expensive, not just for all the infrastructure works but for the wholesale replacement of all locomotives and stock?

 

[sh24]

They mustn't become complacent though, costs are rising all the time.

Yes, but honestly looking at their numbers it is a business in excellent health and they have plenty of levers to pull in managing their profitability. They will definitely survive!

 

[778]

I have looked at the finances of the “big four”: the Bluebell, the NYMR, the SVR and the GCR.

I though you would have included the WSR as one of the big ones? I would say there is a big 8 (if we are including standard guage railways) the 4 you mentioned, the WSR, ELR, GWSR and MHR.

GCR
The Great Central accounts show they likewise made a similar loss as the NYMR in 2023 of £672k, which they similarly reduced to a £228k loss in 2024, with losses likely to continue until 2028.

A common theme expressed in all the accounts is that the operating environment is “challenging”, and likely to remain so for the foreseeable future. They appear to have gone from being successful, profitable businesses pre-Covid, to making substantial year-on-year losses. A number of them have even had to justify in their accounts why they should still be considered as going concerns. However, at least the NYMR, SVR and GCR have managed to halve their losses.

Is an 18 mile railway with double track sections going to be viable in the long term for the GCR?

 

[sh24]

I've had a quick scan of the NYMR and GCR. NYMR like the KWVR to be in a good condition and generating cash. The NYMR trust which reports the total group performance added 728K of funds in FY24/25, and cashflow up 133K. Trading wasn't good but the railway has a really strong balance sheet. GCR is more variable, but the paper loss of £671K in 24 was driven by a whacking great impairment charge. Adjusting out that and other non cash items and it made 240K, before a loss of 321K in 2025.