How Viable are Preserved Railways?

[martin butler]

I think people just don't have the money to spare, and when they do visit a heritage line, or centre, its when there is a special attraction or gala , and they see it as being better value for money, Things like on train dining are actually doing well people will spend if it's for a special occasion,

I think there needs to be a new reality, that no railway is too big to not go under, and there are some unpalatable things that will have to be done, costs are rising faster than income, so costs have to be controlled, fewer trains, possibly more use of DMU/,Deisel traction, with steam being used less, and some projects will have to be put on the back burner, I expect at least one line will suffer a very near miss, and have to radically change its way of working, and some high level people will have to be let go, I think the NYMR will very nearly go under, because of mis management and decisions it's made, and will have to drastically change its priorities, the golden goose that was Whitby, could very well become a mill stone round he railways head.

 

[Deepgreen]

I think the market is dwindling for many reasons - the number of people around who remember 'real' steam is falling rapidly and with that will be the loss of first-hand interest and therefore attendance at heritage railways. The 'Harry Potter' effect is also falling off quickly, and the second- and third-hand enthusiasm is waning too. It's a natural decline, sadly, and the amazing achievements of the heritage movement peaked many years ago. I can't see the movement sustaining itself at the current rate, sadly again, and I do wonder how the decline can be managed with as little pain as possible. I suspect an awful lot of stock and locos may have to become static museum pieces owing to the cost of running them.

I would love to be wrong about my assumptions above, so please feel free to cheer me up about it!

 

[JonathanH]

I suspect an awful lot of stock and locos may have to become static museum pieces owing to the cost of running them.

That is already the case, with locomotives having to take their turn for overhaul. The difficult thing is the ones that are static outside.

 

[Iskra]

Cutting timetables back is probably not the answer, as that could lead to a viscous cycle of decline.

I suspect railways would be better operating less days with a strong timetable, than doing more running days but with a barely usable timetable.

 

[JonathanH]

Cutting timetables back is probably not the answer, as that could lead to a viscous cycle of decline.

You say that, but it isn't actually uncommon to find that the journeys later in the day are quieter than those earlier in the day. However, I'd imagine that the point js that once a steam locomotive is up and running for the day, the later journeys are a bit more marginal.

 

[Iskra]

You say that, but it isn't actually uncommon to find that the journeys later in the day are quieter than those earlier in the day. However, I'd imagine that the point js that once a steam locomotive is up and running for the day, the later journeys are a bit more marginal.

I find the first journey of the day is usually nice and quiet, so I suspect its the middle of the day that is busiest.

That wasn’t really the point I was making though; some railways timetables are so thin that they are difficult to plan around and offer little flexibility. You might think a place on a heritage railway is worth a quick look around of around 15-30 minutes, but then find the next train out of there in the right direction isn’t for 2 hours, so you just don’t bother. The NYMR is getting into this territory, and I can think of a few others too. The KWVR however often does it well, by generally having a diesel service as well as steam. Thus, my point that many railways would be better operating less days, but with a more useable timetable. Please note that useable does not necessarily mean of longer duration, although of course that could be the case.

 

[Rover]

the number of people around who remember 'real' steam is falling rapidly and with that will be the loss of first-hand interest and therefore attendance at heritage railways.

You make a very pertinent point, I started in the late 60s so grew up with diesels, when I go to galas it's for diesel not steam because that was my era.

 

[158760]

East Grinstead has a 2ph service, missing the connection is not the end of the world compared to missing a 1ph or worse connection many other heritage railways deal with

It does vary sometimes. I worded my original post poorly, and meant an 11:30 start from East Grinstead is quite late, and ideally the first Bluebell service should be earlier.

 

[duffield]

Cross-station interchange at Keighley, with regular services to the nearest large cities, will help too.

Yes, even though I'm a bit further away, in Nottingham, the services (via multiple routes to Leeds) are convenient enough for it to feel pretty local.

 

[Jan Mayen]

The majority of heritage railways have struggled to make a profit or even make ends meet post covid. It’s a different market, and unfortunately (in the case of the Bluebell) we have not yet adapted to the new market. For example, the 11:30 from East Grinstead is a very late start to the day, and the 10:30 from Sheffield Park always leaves full, whilst the 3:30 round trip carries a lot of fresh air. Changes are in progress for the next couple of years.

The Ardingly proposal was one member who tabled a motion to press forwards with the project - which was overwhelmingly rejected. Silly idea in this state. Almost unbelievable someone suggested it!

Most days on the railway we have a Kids for a Quid deal, where children go for £1 with any fare paying adult (the idea being money is then made back in other areas such as catering and the shop). £30 is for a rover ticket, giving you all day travel on the railway and is good value for the mileage you can cover with it (bearing in mind one round trip is 22 miles). A lot of people tend to go on the days with other events on too, and especially with the two weekend events not surprising the midweek was quieter than usual.

Hope you enjoyed it! The trains all seemed busy (apart from the 8:15 which went with 8 people on!) and overall the feedback I received was very positive. I hear the booking office takings were high too.

I'd have got the 0815, had it not been for the opportunity to travel in a Pullman on the 0840!

 

[The_Van]

From what I've seen at the Epping Ongar Railway it seems basically dead on non event running days. The diesel Gala earlier this year did have quite good patronage and they seem to make good money from events. But from what I've seen they really need to cut down on non event running days to remain profitable.

I've just received the quarterly magazine for the EOR, the attendance for the Diesel Gala was reported as less than anticipated

Normal running days have been very quiet indeed when I've been albeit they've suffered badly from track problems to Epping Forest for ages now

 

[Steven Taylor]

Cutting timetables back is probably not the answer, as that could lead to a viscous cycle of decline.

I suspect railways would be better operating less days with a strong timetable, than doing more running days but with a barely usable timetable.

The Kent and East Sussex, outside of August has cut the number of working days, but does run multiple trains on these days, with no 2 to 3 hour gaps between trains.

 

[Train Maniac]

Ancedotal evidence/opinion alert:
Ive seen/heard people grumble about gala days and the fact that must surely not be able to pay it way with the hiring in of locos and such...

And yet these events are normally (the ones ive been to at least) have been packed to the rafters. Returning to the line a month or so later for a regular running day (steam+railcar in operation) and the place was considerably quieter.

 

[Chester1]

Where did you find the UK-wide data? I could not find any but saw that ONS state that "31.8% of all live births were to non-UK-born mothers in England and Wales". It seems unlikely that the figures for Scotland and Northern Ireland* would be higher than for England and Wales, and might well be lower, so I suspect a figure of around 30% for the whole UK seems likely.

Those "non-UK-born mothers" will include women born in the Irish Republic, Channel Islands and Isle of Man, will include some women who while born outside the UK came here as babies or infants and grew up here, and will include some women whose British parents had them during a fairly short period living abroad (e.g. military postings overseas). There probably are some children being brought up by mothers who have never heard of Thomas the Tank Engine due to being born and brought up abroad, but I doubt that the figure is 40%.

The ONS data (at https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...ins/parentscountryofbirthenglandandwales/2023) indicted that some of the highest proportions of births to non-UK-born mothers were in Peterborough, Milton Keynes, Sutton and Richmond upon Thames.


I agree that it might foreseeably have that effect, but we do not know that it is. 'Born outside the UK' does not always mean ethnic minority membership in any usual sense: people with one French, Canadian, German or Irish parent are not usually classified as 'ethnic minority' members. Nigel Farage's children have a mother born outside the UK.

I agree that it is important to promote heritage railways to demographic groups who are underrepresented among visitors.

I have a suspicion, although no supporting data, that household income, household composition and book consumption may be significant in affecting tendencies to visit to heritage railways, quite possibly more significant than ethnicity as such.

*The ONS data is based on self-declaration by survey respondents. It is possible that this may be slewed by the known tendency for Nationalist supporters born in Northern Ireland to declare themselves to have been born in the Irish Republic (on the basis of the assertion that Northern Ireland is properly Irish territory merely being administered by the UK).

I can't remember where I saw it to be honest. If its three in ten mothers as per ONS, maybe four in ten is the figure for mother and or father? Three in ten is still a massive demographic shift because outside the UK does increasingly mean born outside of Europe, most of our immigration since brexit has been from outside of Europe. Just incase someone isn't reading the whole page I would like to emphasise my wife is a non European migrant!

It does have implications for heritage railways. There are a lot of people now taking kids to them because of fond childhood memories, which were prompted by their parents nostalgia for steam on the national network. Even European, North American and Australian migrants are less likely to follow that trend because we have a huge heritage network relative to our population. For a line that is struggling any significant number of parents in the catchment area without previous experience of heritage railways is major problem unless they target them. I would hope the lines linked to other tourist attractions act as good introductions.

 

[CastlebarKeith]

A growing problem is that youngsters today are reared on computers
They have no affinity or recollection of engines, steam or diesel

 

[sad1e]

A growing problem is that youngsters today are reared on computers
They have no affinity or recollection of engines, steam or diesel

They'll have no recollection of any engines as the majority of services in this country have been multiple units for the past 35ish years. Phones aren't the problem here.

 

[Belperpete]

KWVR seems to be doing relatively well; and to counter some of the posts upthread it does have a fairly diverse range of customers including overseas tourists and some interest from the diverse local community it serves.

The trend in the OP seems to imply that longer lines with higher fuel, infrastructure and maintenance costs are the hardest to manage sustainably.

When you say "doing relatively well" do you mean financially, or in terms of visitor numbers? I suspect that the KWVR might be faring better financially because it has few (if any?) paid staff. The increase in wage costs was a common comment in the accounts that I looked at. Do you have any figures for the KWVR?

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Cross-station interchange at Keighley, with regular services to the nearest large cities, will help too.

The Bluebell has the same at East Grinstead.

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Ancedotal evidence/opinion alert:
Ive seen/heard people grumble about gala days and the fact that must surely not be able to pay it way with the hiring in of locos and such...

And yet these events are normally (the ones ive been to at least) have been packed to the rafters. Returning to the line a month or so later for a regular running day (steam+railcar in operation) and the place was considerably quieter.

I think there is also the issue that galas "suck in" custom from ordinary operating days. People who are thinking of travelling on a particular line will be attracted to the gala, where there will be more to see, and away from the normal days. Without the gala, the days and weeks either side would probably be busier.

 

[Iskra]

When you say "doing relatively well" do you mean financially, or in terms of visitor numbers? I suspect that the KWVR might be faring better financially because it has few (if any?) paid staff. The increase in wage costs was a common comment in the accounts that I looked at. Do you have any figures for the KWVR?

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Both I suspect. I am a member and the last newsletter was positive, although my copy is in Sheffield and I am currently in Leeds or elsewhere for the foreseeable so I can’t quote it.

Admittedly it is for a series of special events, but the railway is currently running 8 carriage trains midweek for a Railway Children themed event, so I suspect that if passengers from those trains are counted the railway can claim a very successful year regardless of more general performance. The galas have been popular too of course and I was impressed with midweek loadings on my last visit which was a Thursday with only one train in operation.

 

[Krokodil]

The Ffestiniog & Welsh Highland seems to be doing better, with a £13,910 profit (compared with £34k last year). However that's such a small proportion of turnover that it's better described as "breaking even". Rising costs of employment, fuel and energy are to blame.

Thanks Vlad.

 

[frankmoh]

I think the market is dwindling for many reasons - the number of people around who remember 'real' steam is falling rapidly and with that will be the loss of first-hand interest and therefore attendance at heritage railways. The 'Harry Potter' effect is also falling off quickly, and the second- and third-hand enthusiasm is waning too. It's a natural decline, sadly, and the amazing achievements of the heritage movement peaked many years ago. I can't see the movement sustaining itself at the current rate, sadly again, and I do wonder how the decline can be managed with as little pain as possible. I suspect an awful lot of stock and locos may have to become static museum pieces owing to the cost of running them.

I would love to be wrong about my assumptions above, so please feel free to cheer me up about it!

I am guilty of this 100%. I find the Spa Valley's Class 207 more appealing than anything steam.

Also, many in the South have grown up with electric trains from the 50s onwards, and still an electric heritage railway is currently impossible. Even preservation of these types of units isn't happening (think of all the trains binned off in just the past 5 years, 313, 315, 317, 365, 442, 456, et al).

The fact that several heritage railways have now resorted to Pacers on non-event days is rather funny. I wonder when they will make a period-accurate 80s simulation with dirty windows and rubbish on the floor.

 

[Towers]

The Ffestiniog & Welsh Highland seems to be doing better, with a £13,910 profit (compared with £34k last year). However that's such a small proportion of turnover that it's better described as "breaking even". Rising costs of employment, fuel and energy are to blame.

Thanks Vlad.

Indeed; £13k might as well be zero.

I would suggest that one of the primary issues in terms of attracting patronage is that there are simply too many heritage lines in the UK. Taking the south as an example, there must be approaching double figures if you sweep from east to west, Kent across to Cornwall. Yes that’s a vast area, but realistically how much demand can there really be for what is essentially the same product just in that chunk of the country? Each will of course have its own merits, and getting to the point of actually having a functioning heritage line is a huge achievement for all concerned, but there are simply too many of them.

As has been mentioned above, the demographic of those wishing to attend will naturally change, and this brings a massive dilemma - running steam engines is enormously costly and yet the market for it is at the point where it’s shrinking rapidly now, the 50s/60s generation who remember them in service is beginning to fade away. Newer generations want something else, but a token Crompton or 20 or such seems a bit underwhelming and won’t generate sustainable turnover. Every man and his dog now has a Pacer, or indeed even a 150 if you’re the Watercress Line, but you can’t just run that up and down all day - any visitors expecting a ‘heritage’ experience will run a mile! Which sort of leaves you with a sizeable quandry - what even is a heritage line these days?

There will always be the casual tourist market, and they’ll want steam, but that’s a lot more use if you’re the West Somerset, in prime territory next door to Butlins, or on the Isle of Wight surrounded by holidaying families, than if you’re the Bluebell miles from anywhere - not that the W Somerset has been a glowing example of success lately, of course.

Then we have the ever increasing presence of heritage stock running on the mainline, which means that diesel bashers are being spoilt rotten and can regularly see all sorts of stuff without setting foot anywhere near a heritage line, and those with some disposable income can choose to spend it doing a railtour or two if they wish rather than paying to visit preserved lines; this is a bit of a golden era for mainline operations but arguably that’s bad news for the heritage sector.

Realistically I could forsee a time when a substantial number of lines have long gone, such is the obvious degree of unsustainability, and we may be left with a much smaller selection of lines spread out regionally across the country. I think at that point solidarity will be key, working together as a sector and maximising the potential from one combined market rather than trying to operate in competition with one another. Sharing of assets, experience - maybe even volunteer labour in some instances - will become key to the sector having a future.

 

[railfan99]

4) Changing demographic of the UK - regardless of what side of the debate you sit on, the demographics of the UK are changing, either as a result of age or nationality. I think it's absolutely fair to say that some of these demographics would simply not even think to visit a heritage railway - particularly where alcohol "real ale" etc is a significant contributor to the income of these railways. White British is generally the overwhelming demographic that visits heritage railways and maybe more could be done to try and expand that appeal.

I've briefly posed that question before.

In numerous visits to England and some to Scotland, I've rarely seen Indians/Pakistanis travelling on a preserved railway.

Yet these nations have very busy rail networks that are the backbone for untold millions of the land transport system.

Some railways attract Japanese: Keighley and Worth Valley is one.

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The Kent and East Sussex, outside of August has cut the number of working days, but does run multiple trains on these days, with no 2 to 3 hour gaps between trains.

As @paul1609 may confirm, K&ESR sometimes (often?) hosts groups from cruise ships who arrive by coach.

 

[xotGD]

Some railways attract Japanese: Keighley and Worth Valley is one.

The Brontes attract the Japanese visitors. Then they take a ride on the railway while they are here.

 

[Belperpete]

The Ffestiniog & Welsh Highland seems to be doing better, with a £13,910 profit (compared with £34k last year).

The Ff&WHR is one of those lines whose patronage is heavily dependent on the local tourist trade. The West Somerset being another example. The number of tourists in the area obviously affects the number of passengers. Also, some people on holiday tend to be a bit more ready to splash the cash, as evidenced by how quickly the first class on the Ff&WHR sells out. They are building an extra first class carriage to help cope with the demand.

However that's such a small proportion of turnover that it's better described as "breaking even". Rising costs of employment, fuel and energy are to blame.

Heritage railway accounts are not like normal business accounts. Commercial busineses aim to make as much profit as possible to pay to the owners or shareholders. Preserved railways generally don't pay a dividend. If there looks like being a surplus, they can always find something to spend it on. I think most preserved railways budget to break even, with a bit of surplus as leeway.

 

[LMS 4F]

I have long thought there are far too many railways chasing the same market. In not much more than one hours drive for me I have a choice of a dozen lines. They of course vary greatly but how in the long term they will all survive I fail to see.

 

[Belperpete]

The Brontes attract the Japanese visitors. Then they take a ride on the railway while they are here.

I think an increasing number of foreign tourists are venturing outside London. Apparently the second most visited place for Chinese tourists is Bicester shopping village. Belper and the Derwent Valley attracts a surprising number of American tourists interested in Industrial archaeology, as the birthplace of the "father of American industry". Hopefully the local heritage railways are tapping into that market.

 

[martin butler]

The ones who adapt to the new reality will survive, the ones who can't, or wont, they will struggle, but might not completely collapse, what will though, are the few that their management are at odds with the membership, and refuse to listen to the warnings

 

[daodao]

One significant issue is the location of preserved lines relative to major population centres.

A greater proportion of lines that were closed for economic reasons in the 50 years after WW2 are in rural areas, and while some lines were closed in urban areas, they were often short branches unsuitable for preservation or routes that were later reserved for other uses such as conversion to new roads, greenways, cycle routes or light rail. However, visitors and volunteers are likely to be more numerous in large conurbations.

The only preserved heavy rail line within 30 miles of where I live, on the edge of Greater Manchester, is the East Lancashire Railway (ELR), and even that is nearly 1 hour away by car. However, it seemed busy when I visited on an off peak Sunday 3 years ago, and didn't seem short of staff, many of whom I presume were volunteers.

The future of lines like the ELR and KWVR (in the West Yorkshire conurbation) is likely to be rosier than that of lines in more remote countryside, particularly those without a unique selling point or who unfortunately suffer an infrastructure calamity.

 

[Class73Electro]

what even is a heritage line these days?

See, to me, it would be out of service trains you can't get on anymore in regular service.

This is where the MHRs 150 is going to be interesting. Is it heritage? I'd say not yet. But I can understand the why behind getting it - with 1125 out for the foreseeable, and coal prices being so high, they need something. I was speaking to some of the team when they had a open day for 1125, and they said how cheap it was to run diesel over steam.

But can a 150 draw people in?

 

[Belperpete]

The ones who adapt to the new reality will survive, the ones who can't, or wont, they will struggle, but might not completely collapse, what will though, are the few that their management are at odds with the membership, and refuse to listen to the warnings

Unfortunately there are some lines where the management have been at odds with the membership because the members don't want to accept the new reality, and want to carry on as before.