Powys Bus Changes

[markymark2000]

Some of you may be aware that there was a consultation held on a revamp of the Powys Bus Network. Given the scale of the changes, and lack of existing thread, I though I'd create a new one.

The consultation was held on the councils website but doesn't provide any details anymore. The councils meetings page does have the documents though which shows everything that was consulted on and the timetables that they wanted to run to though note that some changes have happened in the final tender awards (see link at the bottom of the thread for Carmarthenshire Councils timetable for the X80)
General council meeting link: https://powys.moderngov.co.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=137&MId=8974&Ver=4
Proposals and proposed timetables as per the consultation: https://powys.moderngov.co.uk/documents/s96487/Appendix 1 Consultation Document Local Bus.pdf


Some news is now slowly coming out about some winners.

Adventure Travel	Re-won their 62 and 64 services.
Celtic Travel	Has won back their current network of once per week shopper routes, the 48/X48, 58, X75 between Newtown and Aberystwyth & X47 between Llandrindod Wells and Llangurig). Celtic has lost the 41A school service from Presteigne to Newtown and lost a few buses on the X47/X75 with the changes to services here. This is in addition to the T4 between Merthyr and Newtown which has been tendered separately.
Lloyds Coaches	Has won the X85 (which is their existing section of the T12 between Newtown and Machnellyth) as well as re-won the B36 (which is the existing T36 renumbered and will be branded as Bwc a Bws)
Owens Travelmaster	No official or confirmed information yet
Sargeant Bros	Re-won the 41. They have won the 41A Presteigne to Newtown, new 91 from Kington to Hereford, new 95 from Kington to Leominster, plus the X44/X15 service between Hereford and Brecon (it'll be interesting to see how this operates in reality as I don't think it will be as per the consultation)
Stagecoach South Wales (including for the avoidance of doubt)	Will no longer be operating the Brecon 40A/40B, 43/X43 or T14. Nor the T4 which is being contracted separately now by TFW.
Tanat Valley Coaches	No official or confirmed information yet
Williams of Brecon	Won the 40A/40B (Brecon locals), 43/X43 (Brecon to Abergavenny), X80 (new Brecon to Llandovery) & B49 (new pre book scheduled bus).

With Celtic, the changes will sadly mean they will no longer operate through to Shrewsbury which will be a shame as they did seem to be a really good operator, but on the plus side it may help with ticket acceptance around Shrewsbury as it'll be one less operator in the area.

With Williams of Brecon, it's quite the network to startup with. They are a well respected operator though and I hope it goes well for them. Interestingly the X80 service is watered down from the original consultation and so 2 of the trips will now run School Hols & Saturdays only. Sadly common sense and cross border partnerships haven't prevailed so there is still a connection in Llandovery (In my opinion the most stupid place to have people changing buses but then again, it's about standard for Wales where the most minor of towns is somehow the interchange hub). See the Carmarthenshire Council link below for the timetable.


Most information is from the Traffic Commissioners registration search (https://www.vehicle-operator-licensing.service.gov.uk/search/find-registered-local-bus-services/) and for a more user friendly way of finding data, it will likely filter through to Bustimes within the next week or so. Lloyds information is from their website and own announcements. There is also limited information on Carmarthenshire Councils website for the Adventure Travel 64, Celtic X12 and new Williams X80 (https://www.carmarthenshire.gov.wales/media/l3ubs3dt/powys_timetables_01092025.pdf)

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Some of you may be aware that there was a consultation held on a revamp of the Powys Bus Network. Given the scale of the changes, and lack of existing thread, I though I'd create a new one.

The consultation was held on the councils website but doesn't provide any details anymore. The councils meetings page does have the documents though which shows everything that was consulted on and the timetables that they wanted to run to though note that some changes have happened in the final tender awards (see link at the bottom of the thread for Carmarthenshire Councils timetable for the X80)
General council meeting link: https://powys.moderngov.co.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=137&MId=8974&Ver=4
Proposals and proposed timetables as per the consultation: https://powys.moderngov.co.uk/documents/s96487/Appendix 1 Consultation Document Local Bus.pdf


Some news is now slowly coming out about some winners.

Adventure Travel	Re-won their 62 and 64 services.
Celtic Travel	Has won back their current network of once per week shopper routes, the 48/X48, 58, X75 between Newtown and Aberystwyth & X47 between Llandrindod Wells and Llangurig). Celtic has lost the 41A school service from Presteigne to Newtown and lost a few buses on the X47/X75 with the changes to services here. This is in addition to the T4 between Merthyr and Newtown which has been tendered separately.
Lloyds Coaches	Has won the X85 (which is their existing section of the T12 between Newtown and Machnellyth) as well as re-won the B36 (which is the existing T36 renumbered and will be branded as Bwc a Bws)
Owens Travelmaster	No official or confirmed information yet
Sargeant Bros	Re-won the 41. They have won the 41A Presteigne to Newtown, new 91 from Knighton to Hereford, new 95 from Knighton to Leominster, plus the X44/X15 service between Hereford and Brecon (it'll be interesting to see how this operates in reality as I don't think it will be as per the consultation)
Stagecoach South Wales (including for the avoidance of doubt)	Will no longer be operating the Brecon 40A/40B, 43/X43 or T14. Nor the T4 which is being contracted separately now by TFW.
Tanat Valley Coaches	No official or confirmed information yet
Williams of Brecon	Won the 40A/40B (Brecon locals), 43/X43 (Brecon to Abergavenny), X80 (new Brecon to Llandovery) & B49 (new pre book scheduled bus).

With Celtic, the changes will sadly mean they will no longer operate through to Shrewsbury which will be a shame as they did seem to be a really good operator, but on the plus side it may help with ticket acceptance around Shrewsbury as it'll be one less operator in the area.

With Williams of Brecon, it's quite the network to startup with. They are a well respected operator though and I hope it goes well for them. Interestingly the X80 service is watered down from the original consultation and so 2 of the trips will now run School Hols & Saturdays only. Sadly common sense and cross border partnerships haven't prevailed so there is still a connection in Llandovery (In my opinion the most stupid place to have people changing buses but then again, it's about standard for Wales where the most minor of towns is somehow the interchange hub). See the Carmarthenshire Council link below for the timetable.


Most information is from the Traffic Commissioners registration search (https://www.vehicle-operator-licensing.service.gov.uk/search/find-registered-local-bus-services/) and for a more user friendly way of finding data, it will likely filter through to Bustimes within the next week or so. Lloyds information is from their website and own announcements. There is also limited information on Carmarthenshire Councils website for the Adventure Travel 64, Celtic X12 and new Williams X80 (https://www.carmarthenshire.gov.wales/media/l3ubs3dt/powys_timetables_01092025.pdf)

Thanks for the breakdown.

As you say, quite the step up for Williams of Brecon, and quite the shock to see how much Stagecoach has lost. It would be difficult to compete against such an operator anyway but certainly at that distance from Brecon.

The X80... what was the original consultation proposal, and what is the issue with Llandovery?

 

[DaveHarries]

Glad to see someone has finally had the idea of running buses between Brecon and Llandovery: I once had to try and get a bus from Llandovery to Carmarthen (from which I would then have travelled Carmarthen - Bristol TM) while at work but missed that bus because an HGV turned up at the same time as the bus meaning I couldn't get across the road to the bus stop in time. I judged it better to get to Brecon but there was no bus so I ended up getting a taxi which cost me at least £40 - a nuisance even if I did get a refund on that from my employer!

TBH I hope the X80 will be a stepping stone: I have often thought that a route like the X80 could be turned into a TrawsCymru route (Txx) running between, say, Brecon and Ammanford (and maybe then to Carmarthen via. Cross Hands by combining the X80 with the Morris Travel service between Llandovery and Carmarthen (rte 280 iiirc?))

Dave

 

[markymark2000]

The X80... what was the original consultation proposal, and what is the issue with Llandovery?

Proposed was 6 trips daily. Now it's 4 trips Mon-Fri School Days, 6 Mon-Fri School Hols & Saturdays. It's down 2 trips on school days but that means that the first service doesn't now get into Llandovery until 10:20, and into Brecon until 11:31. Also means for shoppers, you have 1h30 in Brecon, or 5h30 in Brecon which isn't ideal. It's really limited the potential of the service as school days, no one can use the service for work. unless your work hours are 12-5.
The original consultation timetable can be found on, page 46/47 of the linked pdf (it's too long to screenshot to share the photo because they have shown the X80 and a randomly different 280/281 timetable in the same page)
Actual timetable as of September is in the link from Carmarthenshire Council (link, second page). I'm not sure if the 280/281 is changing to the timetable as it's all a bit odd promoting one timetable in the consultation but operating to something completely new.


The basic issue at Llandovery is similar to that of Corwen, it's just changing in the middle of absolutely nowhere. It's not like Brecon where it's an alright sized town to walk around or you can kill time. Nope, just a car park and a Nisa Local around the corner. Hardly a nice place to sit between buses, let alone wait for maybe 2 hours for the connection. In that neck of the woods too, there won't be many taxis about either to rescue you. Connection points shouldn't be the absolute middle of nowhere (least not until there is an effective process for holding connections for late running services or a backup plan for people who miss that connection)

The same set up in Corwen doesn't work and hasn't really ever worked as buses all drive off on their time and generally refuse to wait even a minute for a late running service for passengers to make connections. And if you miss that connection, you're stuffed and there is not a hint of life anywhere for you to ask for help. Phone signal isn't the best in these very rural villages.

Either, the 280/281 should have been cut back to Llandeilo and have the X80 extend to there (offering a hub and spoke connections with the X13 to Swansea, and 280/281 to Carmarthen), or extend the 280/281 to Brecon.

Other than the silly connection point and silly timetable, X80 is a good route to fill a missing link. I feel like it's a typical 'good idea, poor execution'.

TBH I hope the X80 will be a stepping stone

Certainly fills a gap in the bus network so it's a good idea. Could just do with some adjustments though to make it useful.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The basic issue at Llandovery is similar to that of Corwen, it's just changing in the middle of absolutely nowhere. It's not like Brecon where it's an alright sized town to walk around or you can kill time. Nope, just a car park and a Nisa Local around the corner. Hardly a nice place to sit between buses, let alone wait for maybe 2 hours for the connection. In that neck of the woods too, there won't be many taxis about either to rescue you. Connection points shouldn't be the absolute middle of nowhere (least not until there is an effective process for holding connections for late running services or a backup plan for people who miss that connection)

The same set up in Corwen doesn't work and hasn't really ever worked as buses all drive off on their time and generally refuse to wait even a minute for a late running service for passengers to make connections. And if you miss that connection, you're stuffed and there is not a hint of life anywhere for you to ask for help. Phone signal isn't the best in these very rural villages.

I offer you interchange at Pen Y Gwryd or Oakley Arms! Which always used to be connection points. Not sure if they are nowadays as I'm out out touch with Welsh routes. The Sherpa tend to go to Pen-Y-Pass nowadays.

 

[RELL6L]

Do we know anything about the new X77 into Shrewsbury and the remainder of the T12 east of Newtown - the latter was proposed to be increased to hourly but dependent on Welsh government funding?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Proposed was 6 trips daily. Now it's 4 trips Mon-Fri School Days, 6 Mon-Fri School Hols & Saturdays. It's down 2 trips on school days but that means that the first service doesn't now get into Llandovery until 10:20, and into Brecon until 11:31. Also means for shoppers, you have 1h30 in Brecon, or 5h30 in Brecon which isn't ideal. It's really limited the potential of the service as school days, no one can use the service for work. unless your work hours are 12-5.
The original consultation timetable can be found on, page 46/47 of the linked pdf (it's too long to screenshot to share the photo because they have shown the X80 and a randomly different 280/281 timetable in the same page)
Actual timetable as of September is in the link from Carmarthenshire Council (link, second page). I'm not sure if the 280/281 is changing to the timetable as it's all a bit odd promoting one timetable in the consultation but operating to something completely new.


The basic issue at Llandovery is similar to that of Corwen, it's just changing in the middle of absolutely nowhere. It's not like Brecon where it's an alright sized town to walk around or you can kill time. Nope, just a car park and a Nisa Local around the corner. Hardly a nice place to sit between buses, let alone wait for maybe 2 hours for the connection. In that neck of the woods too, there won't be many taxis about either to rescue you. Connection points shouldn't be the absolute middle of nowhere (least not until there is an effective process for holding connections for late running services or a backup plan for people who miss that connection)

The same set up in Corwen doesn't work and hasn't really ever worked as buses all drive off on their time and generally refuse to wait even a minute for a late running service for passengers to make connections. And if you miss that connection, you're stuffed and there is not a hint of life anywhere for you to ask for help. Phone signal isn't the best in these very rural villages.

Either, the 280/281 should have been cut back to Llandeilo and have the X80 extend to there (offering a hub and spoke connections with the X13 to Swansea, and 280/281 to Carmarthen), or extend the 280/281 to Brecon.

Other than the silly connection point and silly timetable, X80 is a good route to fill a missing link. I feel like it's a typical 'good idea, poor execution'.


Certainly fills a gap in the bus network so it's a good idea. Could just do with some adjustments though to make it useful.

I don't know if I agree with you. I know Llandovery very well. For a start, you're neglecting that it's full of pubs courtesy of its days as a drovers town. You can certainly wait in a cafe like Penygawse (very nice) or there's a couple just around the market place, or in the Castle Hotel where you can also sit and have a coffee about 50m from the main Castle bus stop. Or, at West End Cafe which is a renowned spot for touring motorcyclists to stop. Whilst there's not some massive taxi rank, you can get taxis too!

I don't think it is a great idea. This smacks of someone looking at a map and seeing a gap, and then thinking about putting a service there. I remember the former 64 service from Brecon to Llandovery that was operated by Brown's of Builth using an Optare Alero (eeek) at one stage before they used a Solo on it. It carried virtually no-one which is why it got binned c.2014/5? IIRC, though I can't find it on Timetable World, the route was part of the Brecon to Tenby service originally but that it was incrementally pared back and by 1981, was only Brecon to Trecastle.

The reality is that there's only two villages between Llandovery and Brecon, i.e. Trecastle and Sennybridge, and the latter has a regular service from the T6. There's no real requirement and arguably, as I've said before on this forum, you'd be better off using an additional bus to create an hourly service on the 280/1.

 

[markymark2000]

I offer you interchange at Pen Y Gwryd or Oakley Arms! Which always used to be connection points. Not sure if they are nowadays as I'm out out touch with Welsh routes. The Sherpa tend to go to Pen-Y-Pass nowadays.

Thankfully Oakley Arms is no longer a connection point really. You can change there if you wish but connections are mostly (if not all) made at Porthmadog. Pen Y Gwryd also doesn't seem to be a connection point.

They aren't good connection points either though (these wrongs don't make Llandovery right), we don't want to drag everywhere down to this level.

Do we know anything about the new X77 into Shrewsbury and the remainder of the T12 east of Newtown - the latter was proposed to be increased to hourly but dependent on Welsh government funding?

There are rumours floating around but I didn't want to post it in the original list until it was confirmed.

I don't know if I agree with you. I know Llandovery very well. For a start, you're neglecting that it's full of pubs courtesy of its days as a drovers town. You can certainly wait in a cafe like Penygawse (very nice) or there's a couple just around the market place, or in the Castle Hotel where you can also sit and have a coffee about 50m from the main Castle bus stop. Or, at West End Cafe which is a renowned spot for touring motorcyclists to stop. Whilst there's not some massive taxi rank, you can get taxis too!

Plenty of areas have taxi ranks doesn't mean they always have taxis. Especially in rural Wales.
It may have all of the bells and whistles for you, but it won't cut it for many people.

The reality is that there's only two villages between Llandovery and Brecon, i.e. Trecastle and Sennybridge, and the latter has a regular service from the T6. There's no real requirement and arguably, as I've said before on this forum, you'd be better off using an additional bus to create an hourly service on the 280/1.

Agree fully.

 

[K219UHA]

Regarding the T12, locally its been suggested the Oswestry to Wrexham section is been dropped from September, believe due to taking revenue of the Arriva 2 and something has kicked off.

Tanat have retained T12 Oswestry to Newtown, inc a new Sunday service.

Why Powys, Tanat, TfW been quiet on it all, boggles the mind.

Also suggested a movement of Evoras on the cards, may involve some of the former T4 examples, but that's all strong rumours.

Time will tell on it all.

 

[Llandudno]

Regarding the T12, locally its been suggested the Oswestry to Wrexham section is been dropped from September, believe due to taking revenue of the Arriva 2 and something has kicked off.

Tanat have retained T12 Oswestry to Newtown, inc a new Sunday service.

Why Powys, Tanat, TfW been quiet on it all, boggles the mind.

Also suggested a movement of Evoras on the cards, may involve some of the former T4 examples, but that's all strong rumours.

Time will tell on it all.

Maybe the T12 will have the Wrexham leg reinstated when bus franchising kicks in…?

 

[Dai Corner]

Maybe the T12 will have the Wrexham leg reinstated when bus franchising kicks in…?

Surely the Welsh Government can't give itself powers to franchise services in England, even if they start and end in Wales?

 

[Simon75]

Surely the Welsh Government can't give itself powers to franchise services in England, even if they start and end in Wales?

Plenty of other cross border services will be affected then ?

 

[burns20]

We have tried to summarise the changes and have done a new North and Mid Wales Network Map based on what information we have

https://lloydscoaches.com/powys-bus-changes/

I'm happy to be corrected

 

[RELL6L]

We have tried to summarise the changes and have done a new North and Mid Wales Network Map based on what information we have

https://lloydscoaches.com/powys-bus-changes/

I'm happy to be corrected

That’s really helpful. Hopefully more information and timetables will become available in advance of the change dates. Thank you for providing so much good information beyond your own operations.

 

[K219UHA]

We have tried to summarise the changes and have done a new North and Mid Wales Network Map based on what information we have

https://lloydscoaches.com/powys-bus-changes/

I'm happy to be corrected

That's great list of information. Thank you for providing a link and more to Lloyds for been proactive. It will be interesting to see how the final timetables pan out. I have been reliability informed the Sunday T12 (that's what its listed as still from details seen but sure in lieu of X76) starts and ends at Welshpool and runs quite late.

Still no changes on the Bus Service Registrations to show any change.

 

[burns20]

A Facebook update from Williams of Brecon confirming operation of routes 40, 43, T4, B59 and X80

 

[oldman]

Apart from what Lloyds have put out, is there any published information about timetables? I guess it's unreasonably impatient to expect information 10 days in advance, but it looks pretty poor.

 

[trawscymru27]

I haven’t been able to find any information online. Very poor.

 

[JKP]

There is an article on the new route network and who is operating it in the September edition of Buses magazine.

 

[CN12 AWU]

I see on bus times the new 40A times for Brecon are on there no sign of the replacement T4/T14 or 43/X43 yet

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2025 ==

W

A Facebook update from Williams of Brecon confirming operation of routes 40, 43, T4, B59 and X80

hats happening with T14 is that staying with Stagecoach or completely scrapped

 

[Busman792]

I see on bus times the new 40A times for Brecon are on there no sign of the replacement T4/T14 or 43/X43 yet

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2025 ==

W

hats happening with T14 is that staying with Stagecoach or completely scrapped

Sargeants are operating the T14 (to be re-numbered X44). Again, no times available yet. Just over a week to go and a poor show all round for passenger infomation really!

 

[PeterC]

I offer you interchange at Pen Y Gwryd or Oakley Arms! Which always used to be connection points. Not sure if they are nowadays as I'm out out touch with Welsh routes. The Sherpa tend to go to Pen-Y-Pass nowadays.

The Oakley Arms takes me back to Crossville days in the 70s . Boxes of day old chicks dropped off the bus with us to wait, unattended, for the connection

 

[CN12 AWU]

Sargeants are operating the T14 (to be re-numbered X44). Again, no times available yet. Just over a week to go and a poor show all round for passenger infomation really!

So the T14/X44 is no longer a Traws Cymru route

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2025 ==

Sargeants are operating the T14 (to be re-numbered X44). Again, no times available yet. Just over a week to go and a poor show all round for passenger infomation really!

Wasn't sure if that B59 by Williams was a T14 replacement as T14 does Brecon to Hay-on -Wye

 

[markymark2000]

There is an article on the new route network and who is operating it in the September edition of Buses magazine.

It's worth noting that it isn't 100% accurate though. It seems to be based off the consultation timetables and in a good few cases, the timetables which were consulted on, are not the same as what is being registered.

.
It's worth noting that Powys Council have never cared for passenger information and/or promoting their services, nor are most of their operators! They don't even provide proper validity information for the councils own multi operator day ticket! They care not for bus passengers.

Adventure Travel has uploaded their new 62/64 timetables to their website but their website isn't the best and it's all listed as separate entries and no news article so you'd have to specifically be looking.

Bus Services | Adventure Travel

Leading bus services in Wales. Covering areas in and around Cardiff, Swansea, Pontypridd and the valleys.

www.adventuretravel.cymru

Lloyds Coaches of course has their stuff posted.

A manager or office staff member at Tanat has said on a closed Facebook group that they have timetables made but are awaiting clearance from Powys Council before publishing.

Sergeants, don't expect a word. They made large cuts to the Hereford Town network on the 11th August. The timetables only got published around midday on the 10th August, before that they never said a word to customers, they all had to find out via drivers or some found out vis registration search. Any customer comments on their Facebook page we're being ignored too when people asked for information. Very shoddy operator.

 

[TheSel]

The Oakley Arms takes me back to Crossville days in the 70s . Boxes of day old chicks dropped off the bus with us to wait, unattended, for the connection

Ah!!! Memories! An excuse to post the pictures below, taken at Maentwrog, Oakley Arms.

Crosville ECW bodied Bristol RELL6G 'ERG277' - YFM277L - August 1984.



Ex-Crosville ECW bodied Bristol FS6G DFG38 - originally (and now again) 319PFM, but at the time this photo was taken, registered AFM402A - April 1997.

 

[JKP]

It's worth noting that it isn't 100% accurate though. It seems to be based off the consultation timetables and in a good few cases, the timetables which were consulted on, are not the same as what is being registered.

.
It's worth noting that Powys Council have never cared for passenger information and/or promoting their services, nor are most of their operators! They don't even provide proper validity information for the councils own multi operator day ticket! They care not for bus passengers.

Adventure Travel has uploaded their new 62/64 timetables to their website but their website isn't the best and it's all listed as separate entries and no news article so you'd have to specifically be looking.

Bus Services | Adventure Travel

Leading bus services in Wales. Covering areas in and around Cardiff, Swansea, Pontypridd and the valleys.

www.adventuretravel.cymru

Lloyds Coaches of course has their stuff posted.

A manager or office staff member at Tanat has said on a closed Facebook group that they have timetables made but are awaiting clearance from Powys Council before publishing.

Sergeants, don't expect a word. They made large cuts to the Hereford Town network on the 11th August. The timetables only got published around midday on the 10th August, before that they never said a word to customers, they all had to find out via drivers or some found out vis registration search. Any customer comments on their Facebook page we're being ignored too when people asked for information. Very shoddy operator.

Much of Powys has never been good bus operating territory and agree that the Council has never been good at promoting services provided.

I think that Sergeants have overreached their capabilities. There continues to be issues on the Hereford city routes.

 

[markymark2000]

Much of Powys has never been good bus operating territory and agree that the Council has never been good at promoting services provided.

Would any area be good bus territory if it was promoted as dismally as what is happening in Powys? I can almost guarantee that the most successful bus operating areas would be nothing if it wasn't for promotion of the services (as well as a few other things).

For people to use buses, they have to know about them and get information on them. If you are lacking that basic information about a product or service, no one can then act shocked that people aren't using said product or service.

 

[WelshBuses93]

Tanat Valley Coaches have currently registered two new services on Vosa from 1st September. The X77 between Newtown and Shrewsbury and surprisingly an X85 between Newtown and Carno.

X85

Pardon Our Interruption

X77

Pardon Our Interruption

 

[burns20]

One short working from Carno to Newtown, see Lloyds Coaches X85 timetable

 

[RELL6L]

I've been keeping my eyes open for news on this, apart from the excellent Lloyds Coaches note there is very little anywhere with barely over a week to go. Shambolic from Powys yet the changes themselves in my view look positive. Good service that no-one will know about!