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Guided buses: not enough regard for safety?

Magdalia

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Cambridgeshire County Council are now considering providing a fence long the whole length of the busway:


A council that was fined £6m after three deaths on its guided busway has proposed installing fencing and barriers along the entire 16-mile (26km) route.

Cambridgeshire County Council said it was in "full acceptance" of "historical failures" relating to its busway, which runs from Huntingdon to Cambridge.

Jennifer Taylor, Steve Moir and Kathleen Pitts died after collisions on the route between 2015 and 2021.

The council said a "new and robust" safety regime had been in place since the authority was sentenced at Cambridge Crown Court in April, prompting it to recommend more safety measures as a result.
 
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Trainbike46

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Cambridgeshire County Council are now considering providing a fence long the whole length of the busway:

That seems excessive to me - while I agree with placing fencing along high-risk locations, such as between the station and the hospital site, it seems absurd to build fencing along the parts of the route where the foot/cycle path is separated from the busway by a wide grassy verge, and such a requirement would never be put on a regular road, which is the most similar infrastructure.
 

mangad

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It's only doing what if done for paths along side roads with 60/70mph limits. They're always fenced. We know that.

Oh, hang on...
 

MikeWM

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As a Cambridgeshire taxpayer, I must say I'm totally delighted at the prospect of the council forking out another £4.7 million for fencing - plus apparently another £5 million to do something with flooded sections of the path - on top of this £6 million fine. The guided busway really is a great way to ensure we're spending more and more money for evermore, it seems.
 

SLTRegular

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An Adelaide guided bus tipped yesterday causing major delays. Think it was a Bustech locally produced model.
 

Magdalia

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Another section of the busway is going to have a 30 mph speed limit see here:


The speed limit has been reduced on a stretch of guided busway near where a 13-year-old boy was hit by a bus in March.

Cambridgeshire County Council said it had reduced the speed limit from 50mph to 30mph at Histon to improve safety, particularly for pedestrians.

The change covers a one-and-a-half-mile section between Pagram Way and the Park Lane crossing.
 

Trainbike46

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If it was a proper road the bit through there probably would be 30mph. But the whole thing is getting a bit ridiculous.
I genuinely mean that I would love it if every single crash where someone got hurt (or worse, died) anywhere on the road network was taken this seriously, looking both at infrastructure and the driving standards of the public (including taking people's licences away much quicker).

To bring this back to the busway though, I find the claim that reducing the speed doesn't impact journey times somewhat hard to believe. I'm sure the impact isn't large as the section affected doesn't appear to be long, but no impact on journey times?
 

Tetchytyke

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To bring this back to the busway though, I find the claim that reducing the speed doesn't impact journey times somewhat hard to believe. I'm sure the impact isn't large as the section affected doesn't appear to be long, but no impact on journey times?
The difference in times for 50mph vs 30mph is just over one minute (1m13s according to Google). In reality it will be quite a bit less than this as the bus won’t be doing a constant 50mph for the whole distance due to acceleration and deceleration times. The time difference will likely be under one minute, which is a rounding error really.
 

markymark2000

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Is it not just time to rip up the 'guided' in some places and instead focus more on a normal busway. Runcorn and Redditch work fine (yes people walk on the busway or cycle on it but it's not as dangerous for the pedestrian/cyclist as the bus can see them and swerve out of the way). Should be less disruption too with silly people driving on the busway too as the car catcher won't be there but instead a camera to keep fining the person (less disruption to buses and a revenue generator)
 

Trainbike46

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Is it not just time to rip up the 'guided' in some places and instead focus more on a normal busway. Runcorn and Redditch work fine (yes people walk on the busway or cycle on it but it's not as dangerous for the pedestrian/cyclist as the bus can see them and swerve out of the way). Should be less disruption too with silly people driving on the busway too as the car catcher won't be there but instead a camera to keep fining the person (less disruption to buses and a revenue generator)
Regular busways need to be wider than guided ones, so that could be a very significant set of works.
 

ac6000cw

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The difference in times for 50mph vs 30mph is just over one minute (1m13s according to Google). In reality it will be quite a bit less than this as the bus won’t be doing a constant 50mph for the whole distance due to acceleration and deceleration times. The time difference will likely be under one minute, which is a rounding error really.
...and the buses stop in Histon anyway, as it's quite a large village, which reduces the impact even further.

Regular busways need to be wider than guided ones, so that could be a very significant set of works.
Exactly, which is why the Cambridge one is guided in the first place.
 

markymark2000

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Regular busways need to be wider than guided ones, so that could be a very significant set of works.
You couldn't do the whole busway but certainly some sections in some places it could be changed. Histon looks like one such place where it could be converted to a normal busway without taking up more land.
 

ACBest

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A bit further south, Luton reduced speed limits along its busway last year, in cuts so drastic that there are now some 10mph sections where the busway transitions between guided and unguided - previously these were 20mph, and historically, when the busway first opened, were 30mph. (Although I think you’d have to be brave to attempt navigating such a transition at 30mph!)

The 10mph sections are preceded by 20mph approaches which didn’t previously exist either.

At the same time, the maximum speed on the busway was reduced from 50mph to 40mph, and there was some talk of introducing average speed cameras along certain sections - not sure if that’s actually come to anything though.

Along Hatters Way, lots of access points to the busway have been blocked off - and I’m guessing that’s the same along the full length of the busway.
 

leedslad82

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Leeds are proposing getting rid of thr a64 guided bus ways and replacing with segregated bus lanes

 

johncrossley

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Leeds are proposing getting rid of thr a64 guided bus ways and replacing with segregated bus lanes


This guided busway may have been a good idea in the 90s to prevent illegal use of bus lanes but nowadays we have camera enforcement meaning that far fewer drivers use bus lanes illegally. The West Yorkshire guided busways are particularly barking mad because only some routes use them, so several locations require two bus stops.
 

ac6000cw

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The guided busway only has one stop in Histon, which is at the old railway station.
I know - that's why I said 'buses' (plural) and 'stop' (singular).

You couldn't do the whole busway but certainly some sections in some places it could be changed. Histon looks like one such place where it could be converted to a normal busway without taking up more land.
But why would you spend a lot of money doing that (and creating a lot of disruption to services during re-construction) instead of spending a lot less selectively adding some fencing where there may be particular hazards for pedestrians & cyclists?
 

Ashfordian6

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To bring this back to the busway though, I find the claim that reducing the speed doesn't impact journey times somewhat hard to believe. I'm sure the impact isn't large as the section affected doesn't appear to be long, but no impact on journey times?

Whenever I have used the busway the biggest effect on the journey time has been the loading at the bus stops.
 

johncrossley

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Whenever I have used the busway the biggest effect on the journey time has been the loading at the bus stops.

Obviously it is a joke that boarding takes so long. It is scandalous really that so much public money was spent so that buses can avoid traffic yet they are allowed to waste time selling tickets.
 

Trainbike46

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Obviously it is a joke that boarding takes so long. It is scandalous really that so much public money was spent so that buses can avoid traffic yet they are allowed to waste time selling tickets.
Haven't they even decommissioned the ticket machines at the stops, or are those still present and functional?
 

johncrossley

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Haven't they even decommissioned the ticket machines at the stops, or are those still present and functional?

It is clear that they have hardly ever worked, which is clearly incompetence from the council. But you don't necessarily need ticket machines to speed up boarding. It opened 14 years ago. By that point operators around the world were operating bus routes that sold few, if any, tickets on board and many of them didn't have roadside ticket machines. There are (and always have been) many other options apart from ticket machines.
 

lachlan

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Obviously it is a joke that boarding takes so long. It is scandalous really that so much public money was spent so that buses can avoid traffic yet they are allowed to waste time selling tickets.
Even in Bristol where you can't buy on board, the MetroBus feels sluggish... apart from the section on the M32.

Especially the guided busway section felt very slow for some reason, and is only used by one service
 

Tetchytyke

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The West Yorkshire guided busways are particularly barking mad because only some routes use them, so several locations require two bus stops.
But that's only because some operators (Transdev Harrogate, mainly) didn't want to go to the expense of putting the guide wheels on.

I never understood the point of the three West Yorkshire guided busways though. It always looked like WYPTE and the two councils just got sucked into the new shiny thing rather than actually thinking about it.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Isn't this a) horses for courses and b) technology has changed?

In some areas where you have a very limited footprint (usually on a railway alignment) and therefore guided bus had some logic to it. That probably still persists in certain instances.

The other was that it is was difficult to physically exclude access except through physical barriers/design so busways had that attraction. I think that was the rationale with West Yorkshire though it was strangely executed. Of course, the technology of ANPR, RFID and other options has leapt forward in many places so a physical guided busway is no longer needed and feels anachronistic. The Kesgrave one in Ipswich feels like this but is it easier to have guidewheels than spend money on ripping it out.

The one in Bristol is very odd. You can see the reasoning in having it on Ashton Avenue bridge though just having different colour tarmac and road studs should be enough. The flyover at Ashton Gate is one of the weirdest ideas ever to come to fruition, and by the time this was being finalised, the need for guided buses could be overcome by technology.
 

61653 HTAFC

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But that's only because some operators (Transdev Harrogate, mainly) didn't want to go to the expense of putting the guide wheels on.

I never understood the point of the three West Yorkshire guided busways though. It always looked like WYPTE and the two councils just got sucked into the new shiny thing rather than actually thinking about it.
With franchising coming in, it would be easier to enforce use of the guideways... but as others have said, technology has moved on and guided buses seem a bit outdated now. Especially in urban settings like the one on Manchester Road in Bradford. One of the big issues with that guideway is that it only operates in one direction- mostly towards Bradford city centre but with one section dedicated to outbound buses instead. When buses reach the changeover point they have to cross 3-4 lanes of traffic to do so. Signal priority is in place, but this is Bradford where traffic lights are treated as a guide rather than a hard and fast rule.
 

Tetchytyke

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The other was that it is was difficult to physically exclude access except through physical barriers/design so busways had that attraction. I think that was the rationale with West Yorkshire though it was strangely executed. Of course, the technology of ANPR, RFID and other options has leapt forward in many places so a physical guided busway is no longer needed and feels anachronistic.
The technology doesn’t stop people using the bus lanes though. It may discourage some people but certainly not everyone. Not in the days of cloned number plates.

The three in West Yorkshire are just strange, though, even at the time they were constructed my opinion was that they didn’t make any sense. Making people cross three lanes of traffic to get to the bus stop is just something else to put people off using the bus. Especially as, in both Leeds and Bradford, traffic lights are treated as merely a suggestion, making crossing the road even more fraught.

They still make sense on old railway lines where the buses can run faster, and the ride is more smooth, than they could on a normal road. Sadly these are the sections where the health and safety lot seem determined to treat a guided busway more like a railway or a tramway, hence the miles and miles of pointless fencing because someone decided to run out in front of a bus.
 

markymark2000

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The technology doesn’t stop people using the bus lanes though. It may discourage some people but certainly not everyone. Not in the days of cloned number plates.
Guided busway car traps don't do much either judging by the many instances of people driving their cars on the various guided busways.
I've not seen an unauthorized car on the Runcorn busway though!

You could try sumo busters which are used in Bracknell and at Basingstoke Hospital bus gate, though I think larger cars can get over them.


In any case, the difference is, a car in the guided busway car trap or crashed on the busway closes the busway, costs a heck of a lot of money for bus operators with diversions, lost revenue, misplaced drivers or overtime payments etc etc, and I don't believe any of that is claimed back from the car owner (as the figures would rack up really quickly)

A car on a normal busway or breaching a bus gate can mean fines for the car owners and limited to no disruption for bus operators. Yes some will bend the rules but it seems rare for people to drive on enforced busways. It's those with no enforcement which are regularly abused.
 

Trainbike46

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In any case, the difference is, a car in the guided busway car trap or crashed on the busway closes the busway, costs a heck of a lot of money for bus operators with diversions, lost revenue, misplaced drivers or overtime payments etc etc, and I don't believe any of that is claimed back from the car owner (as the figures would rack up really quickly)
They should recover it from the driver, that is what the driver's insurance is for. Fortunately, most people have the sense to not drive onto a guided busway, which very clearly isn't a road. I believe on the Cambridge one, a car drives on once or twice a year, it really isn't that common.
A car on a normal busway or breaching a bus gate can mean fines for the car owners and limited to no disruption for bus operators. Yes some will bend the rules but it seems rare for people to drive on enforced busways. It's those with no enforcement which are regularly abused.
In my view, the reasons for building a guided busway rather than a road exclusively for use by buses is usually that it is narrower, so it can fit in alignments where a regular bus road wouldn't fit, or it leaves you space for a bike and pedestrian path that you otherwise couldn't fit.

Fortunately, most people have the sense to not drive onto a guided busway, which very clearly isn't a road.
 

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