Some 'Off Peak Day Returns' removed in Wales.

[J663738]

Just wondering why Off Peak Day Returns are no longer being sold any more, for some Journeys in Wales?

I was pricing a day return from Penarth to Swansea and was shocked at the price as an anytime day return was the cheapest at £24.50 (I need some flexibility so didn't want an advance fare).
Cardiff to Swansea off peak day returns still available at £14.50 or first class for £21.70
BRFares shows off peak day return fares stopped being sold for a lot of stations in South Wales from the 7th June 2025.

Interestingly, off peak day returns are still available for journeys such as Cardiff to Bristol and even further a field to Weston-Super-Mare.

As the fare setter is TfW have they removed Off Peak Day Returns to force people to use their PAYG system?
Unlike Bristol and Weston where GWR sets the fares and off peak day returns are still available.

very sneaky.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Fare seems to have disappeared in early June 2025. Had been a £1.90 difference, prior to its withdrawal, between the Off Peak Day Return (Penarth to/from Swansea) & the Anytime Day Return. A year and a bit ago, the fare difference had been some £4.60.

 

[J663738]

Fare seems to have disappeared in early June 2025. Had been a £1.90 difference, prior to its withdrawal, between the Off Peak Day Return (Penarth to/from Swansea) & the Anytime Day Return. A year and a bit ago, the fare difference had been some £4.60.

Looked back to 2024 and they were £18.50, so they increased them by 25%, then they just removed them in June 2025

I wonder is the reason that Off Peak Day Returns are still available from Cardiff to Swansea is that GWR also operate on this route.
Either way, not good to remove what must be the most popular type of ticket, an off peak day return !

 

[Wallsendmag]

All depends if you want to balance the books I suppose

 

[John R]

Given PAYG is not available to Swansea, it would appear rather odd to remove Off-peak tickets to it. If you want to use it you have to tap out first at Cardiff Central, which is rather inconvenient.

 

[J663738]

I am not sure if an Off Peak Day Return is a regulated or an unregulated train fare?

The Office and Road and Rail says to make a complaint, the first option is to complain directly to the TOC (TfW) about unreasonable fare increases if its an unregulated fare.
Then raise a complaint to their regulator, in this instance, its the Welsh Government, who also happen to own TfW.

If its a regulated fare on the other hand, its set and controlled by the Welsh Government itself.

So I don't think I will waste my energy, either way I'm snookered, like asking HMRC to lower your tax rate.

Welcome to the future of nationised rail in the UK, where as a consumer you will have no rights.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Off peak day returns are not regulated. The fares which are regulated are anytime day returns, off peak returns and 7-day (and hence all) season tickets.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Off peak day returns are not regulated. The fares which are regulated are anytime day returns, off peak returns and 7-day (and hence all) season tickets.

Isn't this a similar tactic to what TPE did a few years ago (withdrawal of Off Peak Day Returns) on some of their flows?

 

[LlanishenBull]

I complained about withdrawal of Cardiff to Hereford off peak day returns. Got the following response which didn't really answer my question of course.




I am sorry that you have had to contact us in regard to the off peak return ticket between Cardiff and Hereford. I sincerely apologise for any inconvenience this has caused you.

We have been making some changes recently to simplify the choices available and remove some anomalies with the ticketing, which showed that some Single ticket costs were not consistent with the equivalent Return Tickets costs for the same journey and therefore some of the ticket options were removed and I am sorry for any disappointment this caused.

Please take a look at our website which will give you all the up-to-date information in regard to the various tickets we offer. Also, with no transaction fees, you'll be able to find cheap train tickets for your journey with our free app.

I can assure you that we do take customer satisfaction seriously, we value all feedback as it enables us to continue to improve and meet the expectations of our customers.

I'm sorry again for any inconvenience caused. Please let me know if I can help with anything else.

 

[J663738]

I had voice mails from TfW after I lodged a complaint about removal of off peak day returns saying they would not give me a reference number for my complaint as the ticket class had indeed not been removed. I can only assume, they are either being stupid or have been told to act stupid!

 

[styles]

I had voice mails from TfW after I lodged a complaint about removal of off peak day returns saying they would not give me a reference number for my complaint as the ticket class had indeed not been removed. I can only assume, they are either being stupid or have been told to act stupid!

Why would that even matter when considering if a complaint number can be issued.
The workflow for issuing a complaint reference number is surely just:

1. Is person complaining expected or verified as being a real complainant, with no history of vexatious complaints?
2. If yes, issue a complaint reference number. If not, don't.

 

[Spartacus]

Does TfW have something against off-peak tickets? Some time ago I noticed that the not exactly cheap off-peak journey I sometimes used to visit the in-laws in Wales had been removed with only an anytime one remaining, no matter what time or day, that was something along the lines of a 50% increase if you don't split-ticket.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Aug 2025 ==

Isn't this a similar tactic to what TPE did a few years ago (withdrawal of Off Peak Day Returns) on some of their flows?

I thought that was on fares set by Northern, a result of the conditions imposed on them, such as the evening peak, to get investment for new stock, not just refurbed pacers?

 

[J663738]

We have been making some changes recently to simplify the choices available and remove some anomalies with the ticketing, which showed that some Single ticket costs were not consistent with the equivalent Return Tickets costs for the same journey and therefore some of the ticket options were removed and I am sorry for any disappointment this caused.

This reply tells you exactly why Off Peak Day Returns have been removed, in that they want the two PAYG Singles tickets to be less that the cheapest return fare, hence they have removed some return fares. This would be fine for return fares that are in the PAYG areas, but Swansea is not and Hereford certainly isn't.
I wanted a reference number as a complaint to the Rail Ombudsman about unregulated fares, requires a complaint to the TOC first.

 

[Watershed]

I thought that was on fares set by Northern, a result of the conditions imposed on them, such as the evening peak, to get investment for new stock, not just refurbed pacers?

Northern were forced to impose evening peak restrictions on many of their Off-Peak Day Returns around the major conurbations.

TPE decided to remove many of their Off-Peak Day Returns and to add time restrictions to previously unrestricted Off-Peak Returns.

 

[Haywain]

I wanted a reference number as a complaint to the Rail Ombudsman about unregulated fares, requires a complaint to the TOC first.

What do you think the ombudsman could do about it?

 

[J663738]

What do you think the ombudsman could do about it?

Sorry I don't mean the Ombudsman, its the Office of Road and Rail for an unfair pricing complaints and removal of tickets. (isn't it?)

Example:
Cathays to Swansea Off Peak Return £20.80
Grangetown to Swansea Off Peak Return £36.00

Both Grangetown and Cathays are effectively within Cardiff, Grangetown being much closer than Cathays to Cardiff Central and less than a 5 min walk.

I am sure there are many examples from around the country of fare anomalies, but this one just seems ridiculous.

Probably the complaint will go no where, but then again, if no one ever complains then nothing will ever change.

 

[Haywain]

Sorry I don't mean the Ombudsman, its the Office of Road and Rail for an unfair pricing complaints and removal of tickets. (isn't it?)

I suspect that in the first instance you'd be better taking it up with Transport Focus. Whether ORR have any interest in fares matters I wouldn't know. Whichever route you choose I believe you are free to make representations about it without needing TfW to give you any acknowledgment of your complaint to them.

I am sure there are many examples from around the country of fare anomalies,

Huge numbers of them, and almost certainly many others that are similarly extreme.

 

[redreni]

"We have been making some changes recently to simplify the choices available and remove some anomalies with the ticketing, which showed that some Single ticket costs were not consistent with the equivalent Return Tickets costs for the same journey and therefore some of the ticket options were removed and I am sorry for any disappointment this caused."
This reply tells you exactly why Off Peak Day Returns have been removed, in that they want the two PAYG Singles tickets to be less that the cheapest return fare, hence they have removed some return fares. This would be fine for return fares that are in the PAYG areas, but Swansea is not and Hereford certainly isn't.
I wanted a reference number as a complaint to the Rail Ombudsman about unregulated fares, requires a complaint to the TOC first.

Well, yes, and it also tells you why "we need simpler fares" is not a very clever thing for anyone advocating for passengers' interests on the railway to say, because fare setters can then remove good value fares and say "there you go, you wanted simpler fares, what could be simpler than paying the peak fare all the time?"

I think I've managed to persuade Gareth Dennis to say we need "simpler, more affordable fares" where previously he would have said "simpler fares".

 

[Dai Corner]

An interesting contrast to ScotRail which is withdrawing peak fares from 1 September .

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I would tread very carefully here. The regulated Cardiff (area) to Swansea fares should be much, much higher.

However, some years ago, many years ago really, Arriva Trains Wales and First Great Western got into a price war on that corridor. Various bits and pieces happened, as each TOC responded to the strategy of the other, but ATW then took a fairly drastic step of excessively slashing the inter available Any Permitted Off Peak Return (and first class fares) - to such a low level that FGW simply couldn't respond effectively to that, thereby ending the war. Because ATW controlled that fare, there was nothing that FGW could do.

Because the standard class Off Peak Return fare was regulated, when things normalised, ATW/TfW could not increase it back to what it should have been, as it would have exceeded the annual fare increase limit/basket.

However, the railway is a whole different world now, and that fare could easily be "corrected" - and Advance fares offered in mitigation. Regulation doesn't really exist anymore, as the people setting fare policy are the same as the ones looking at profitability and revenue.

 

[LlanishenBull]

I pointed out comparative day return fares.

Cdf to Gloucester £26 (that's anytime)
Cdf to Bath £27
Cdf to Hereford £36.30

Swansea is considerably cheaper than that.

The Hereford fare is ridiculous, especially given it's only £8.40 return on payg between Cardiff and Abergavenny, but TFW are the sole operators of course.

 

[Bletchleyite]

However, the railway is a whole different world now, and that fare could easily be "corrected" - and Advance fares offered in mitigation. Regulation doesn't really exist anymore, as the people setting fare policy are the same as the ones looking at profitability and revenue.

Yet down here in Oval-land, we might have lost the Off Peak Return, but the Off Peak Day Singles are set to be half the Off Peak Day Return, offering excellent value for a multi day trip compared with before - I think the Bletchley-Euston Off Peak Return when I first moved down here in 2001 was more than the two singles are today. So "doing a LNER" isn't the only option...

 

[Haywain]

Yet down here in Oval-land, we might have lost the Off Peak Return, but the Off Peak Day Singles are set to be half the Off Peak Day Return, offering excellent value for a multi day trip compared with before - I think the Bletchley-Euston Off Peak Return when I first moved down here in 2001 was more than the two singles are today. So "doing a LNER" isn't the only option...

Although the other side of that coin is that there will be people who find that the Off Peak Day Return, or a pair of Off Peak Singles, are no longer suitable for the journeys they are making because of the new restrictions in place.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although the other side of that coin is that there will be people who find that the Off Peak Day Return, or a pair of Off Peak Singles, are no longer suitable for the journeys they are making because of the new restrictions in place.

Also true, though unlike in Wales a Network Railcard can mitigate to a fair extent.