Penalty fare for purchasing ticket 15-30 seconds after departure

[block6panger]

The stations* where you actually started & finished your journey: Apsley to West Brompton

The stations* where you changed trains (if applicable); Watford Junction

If you presented a ticket(s), the information* stated under "Ticket type", "From", "To", "Route", and any other relevant details; Anytime Day Single Apsley to Watford Junction. Oyster card from Watford Junction to West Brompton.

Details of any Railcard(s) held; Disabled railcard

When and where ticket(s) were purchased, including whether this was prior to the journey commencing; 7.34am via Uber. The train departed 7.33 3/4 according to real train times. I was hoping to connect with the Southern train from Watford Junction to West Brompton (which did not happen - I had to take the slower route via Willesden Junction). I was leaving it to the last minute to purchase as I didn't know if I needed a ticket just to Watford or a ticket including travel to West Brompton via London Euston. The London North Western service was running late. I had to make a decision on which ticket to purchase. I felt as the LNWR train was was due to path at Harrow and Wealdstone before the Southern train, I felt there was a good chance the Southern train would be delayed to let the LNWR go first. So immediately on boarding I just purchased a ticket to Watford Junction.

What happened in any encounter with railway staff; the ticket inspector asked for my ticket and then railcard. She said it was an invalid ticket and said it was purchased after departure. She falsely claimed the train left at 7.32. Real train times does not back this up. I explained the delayed situation and the connection but she did not care less and issued a penalty fare after asking for my ID which I did give to her.

We need to know what outcome(s) you would consider satisfactory: to not pay anything as I produced a valid ticket (which I can provide if required).

Seems very disappointing to be penalised this way. I always had the intention of buying a ticket, I just wanted to buy the right one. Any help on this would be appreciated.

 

[Titfield]

A ticket purchased after departure is not invalid however you have committed the offence of boarding a train without a valid ticket.

You could try appealing the PF on the grounds that the ticket was not invalid which means that the PF itself is not valid however from memory I do not think this forum has seen this argument being accepted by those hearing the appeal.

Unfortunately paying immediately after boarding is synonymous with those seeking not to pay the fare but then seeing a ticket inspector hence the approach the Train Operating Companies take,

It may seem harsh but paying the PF at the reduced rate and taking the incident on the chin may be the least worst outcome.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Were you on the train when you bought the ticket? If so, as @Titfield says, that's an absolute offence.

If your contention is that you bought before boarding and the inspector spoke to you later down the route, you may want to run a challenge. There's nothing to lose in taking the appeals to the 3rd stage, so long as you're ready to pay in the discounted window.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

You walked past the first opportunity to pay (Apsley ticket office/platform ticket machine). You boarded a train without a ticket.

 

[furlong]

'Purchased after departure' is not a valid reason for imposing a Penalty Fare. In effect it states that a valid ticket must have been presented to the inspector (or else they could not have stated 'purchased after departure') and therefore no Penalty Fare can be issued. Appeal on the grounds it was not issued in accordance with the regulations.

It's very simple:

Requirement to produce a ticket
4.—(1) A person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train must, if required to do so by or on behalf of an operator, produce a valid travel ticket.

which you claim that you did.

Penalty fares
5.—(1) Subject to regulations 6, 7 and 10, if a person fails to produce a platform ticket or a valid travel ticket in accordance with regulation 4, a collector may charge that person a penalty fare.

Doesn't apply.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Aug 2025 ==

(And remember that a ticket's validity is objectively binary - it is either valid or it is not - and it cannot depend on when or where it was purchased.)

 

[thejuggler]

You walked past the first opportunity to pay (Apsley ticket office/platform ticket machine). You boarded a train without a ticket.

That may be factually correct, but the basis of the PF isn't based on those facts.

I was on a service yesterday and a passenger bought from the guard after she had closed the doors and we had departed. Did she therefore have an invalid ticket?

 

[gray1404]

I would certainly appeal on the grounds stated but be prepared for it to be rejected at the first two stages. Be prepared to have to repeat your grounds for appeal up to and including the third stage.

There was recently a case on here with GTR where a disabled customer was issued with a penalty fare for purchasing after departure and after input from the forum it was cancelled. I notice you hold a disabled person's railcard and the circumstances here are similar.

 

[Watershed]

That may be factually correct, but the basis of the PF isn't based on those facts.

I was on a service yesterday and a passenger bought from the guard after she had closed the doors and we had departed. Did she therefore have an invalid ticket?

Well, quite. The fact that tickets bought onboard from a guard are accepted as being valid undermines the argument that tickets bought digitally in the same circumstances aren't valid.

 

[AlterEgo]

I note you have a Disabled Railcard. Are the ticket facilities accessible to you at Apsley, or does your disability mean the ticket office and/or machines are inaccessible?

 

[gray1404]

Well, quite. The fact that tickets bought onboard from a guard are accepted as being valid undermines the argument that tickets bought digitally in the same circumstances aren't valid.

And this really sums up the way TOCs are playing it. They scan digital ticket and take issue if a purchased after departure message appears. Yet if it's a paper ticket, which will have a time and date stamp on it, there is no issue.

 

[block6panger]

Thanks everyone for their replies so far.

Just to answer the ticket machine/office question. I would have always purchased the ticket on the uber app even if the train was on time.

Prepared to go through the appeals process here.

Begs the question here, not so much at Apsley where the trains are not very frequent, but what happens if you turn up early for your intended train but just manage to make an earlier delayed train and purchase immediately on board.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thanks everyone for their replies so far.

Just to answer the ticket machine/office question. I would have always purchased the ticket on the uber app even if the train was on time.

Your problem here is the train company can decide to prosecute you instead, because what you’ve done to them looks like paying when challenged, especially as you bought a ticket for only part of your journey.

Prepared to go through the appeals process here.

Begs the question here, not so much at Apsley where the trains are not very frequent, but what happens if you turn up early for your intended train but just manage to make an earlier delayed train and purchase immediately on board.

You’ve committed a criminal offence if the ticket issuing facilities at your boarding station were available to you. Bylaw 18.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Begs the question here, not so much at Apsley where the trains are not very frequent, but what happens if you turn up early for your intended train but just manage to make an earlier delayed train and purchase immediately on board.

You would be committing a criminal offence. You must purchase before boarding if ticket retail facilities are available.

The only exception to this is through the various passenger charters for the TOCs which exempt people from this if they are unable to use the ticket office or TVM due to their disability. This is why people have enquired about the nature of your disability.

You walked past the first opportunity to pay (Apsley ticket office/platform ticket machine). You boarded a train without a ticket.

Yes, but that’s irrelevant as it isn’t a valid ground to issue a Penalty Fare. A ticket isn’t invalid because it was bought after departure.

I don’t understand why TOC RPIs seem to struggle with this so much.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes, but that’s irrelevant as it isn’t a valid ground to issue a Penalty Fare. A ticket isn’t invalid because it was bought after departure.

I don’t understand why TOC RPIs seem to struggle with this so much.

It’s a pre populated field on their software it seems, which is problematic.

 

[MikeWh]

especially as you bought a ticket for only part of your journey.

That must surely be a grey area when PAYG is involved. They bought a ticket for the bit that they couldn't use PAYG for (because it's only contactless and doesn't provide railcard discounts). While changing trains at Watford Junction they used the subway validators to touch in.

 

[AlterEgo]

That must surely be a grey area when PAYG is involved. They bought a ticket for the bit that they couldn't use PAYG for (because it's only contactless and doesn't provide railcard discounts). While changing trains at Watford Junction they used the subway validators to touch in.

Yes, fair - would be worth the OP explaining this by way of reply too.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It’s a pre populated field on their software it seems, which is problematic.

I suppose we should be careful what we wish for. A £50 penalty fare is definitely preferable to being prosecuted, or at least having to go through the motions of getting an administrative settlement with is not at all about TOCs ripping people off. But it is concerning that TOCs don’t seem to understand their own law.

Yes, fair - would be worth the OP explaining this by way of reply too.

The wording would need to be careful though. Apsley, unlike Hemel a mile up the road, does not have ticket barriers. I think it needs to be addressed, especially highlighting the railcard, but Apsley is well known for people from Hemel chancing their luck.

 

[Haywain]

Yet if it's a paper ticket, which will have a time and date stamp on it, there is no issue.

It would be pretty difficult to buy a paper ticket after departure, other than from a guard.

 

[gray1404]

It would be pretty difficult to buy a paper ticket after departure, other than from a guard.

Exactly. Passenger gets a paper ticket from the guard after boarding. RPI comes along and there is no problem. Passenger gets an e ticket after boarding, RPI comes along and receives a PF.

 

[furlong]

Exactly. Passenger gets a paper ticket from the guard after boarding. RPI comes along and there is no problem. Passenger gets an e ticket after boarding, RPI comes along and receives a PF.

And in neither case should any action be taken. A PF can't be issued if a valid ticket is presented, and the act of the company permitting the ticket to be purchased (whether from a guard or online) regularises the situation - in effect is a settlement. The fare has been paid and the company should not be so petty minded as to attempt to take any further action over a trivial technicality. Think how much money the train companies would lose if people stopped buying e-tickets after departure ("it's too late to buy one now and I can't do anything about it") and instead only paid if they met staff or a barrier! They really have not thought this one through at all.

 

[Kite159]

..

And in neither case should any action be taken. A PF can't be issued if a valid ticket is presented, and the act of the company permitting the ticket to be purchased (whether from a guard or online) regularises the situation - in effect is a settlement. The fare has been paid and the company should not be so petty minded as to attempt to take any further action over a trivial technicality. Think how much money the train companies would lose if people stopped buying e-tickets after departure ("it's too late to buy one now and I can't do anything about it") and instead only paid if they met staff or a barrier! They really have not thought this one through at all.

And what percentage of customers buying after departure are the sort who only suddenly remember they haven't got a ticket & only purchase it when they see a member of staff checking?

 

[block6panger]

Got a reply this evening which is below.

Thanks for your replies everyone.

The Appeals Service (AS) is independent of West Midlands. AS provide a service which gives the recipient of a Penalty Fare Notice the opportunity to dispute the issue. To ensure consistency, AS follow a Code of Practice compliant with the criteria set out in the Railways (Penalty Fares) (Amendment) Regulations 2022 when making assessments of Penalty Fare Notice appeals.

All transport companies operating a Penalty Fare scheme display warning notices which advise transport users of their obligations and the potential consequences in failing to meet these.

The transport user is required to show on request a valid ticket. However, on this occasion I acknowledge that difficulties were experienced.

On assessment your appeal has been approved and this case is now closed.

Finally, as an appeals service which is independent of West Midlands we are unable to investigate complaints concerning West Midlands service or staff conduct.

Please therefore contact West Midlands direct with your requests and concerns.

 

[MikeWh]

On assessment your appeal has been approved and this case is now closed.

Good news, thanks for coming back and updating us.