Might the Whitehaven tunnel issues result in closure? Could Whitehaven be brought back into use? And other speculation on this issue...

[BerkshireRails]

In the worst case, a diversion or a complete tunnel rebuild happens, first infilling with concrete, then using a tunnel boring machine to bore a new tunnel.

 

[AndrewE]

In the worst case, a diversion or a complete tunnel rebuild happens, first infilling with concrete, then using a tunnel boring machine to bore a new tunnel.

... after (or while) grouting all the surrounding cavities which have caused the problems in the first place!

 

[Straus]

In the worst case, a diversion or a complete tunnel rebuild happens, first infilling with concrete, then using a tunnel boring machine to bore a new tunnel.

Ooof, you're taking hundreds of millions there

 

[The Planner]

Ooof, you're taking hundreds of millions there

Farnworth was costed at the equivalent of £30 million in todays money, whether it came in at the original £21 million I do not know. I expect it would be nearer £40 million with construction inflation etc now.

 

[BerkshireRails]

... after (or while) grouting all the surrounding cavities which have caused the problems in the first place!

You would probably want to do that at the same time as infilling the tunnel.

Also, Northern is currently looking at restoring rail service to Corkickle, according to Rail Magazine.

 

[158756]

Farnworth was costed at the equivalent of £30 million in todays money, whether it came in at the original £21 million I do not know. I expect it would be nearer £40 million with construction inflation etc now.

That seems incredibly cheap given basic stations are costing £40m or more now.

 

[thenorthern]

According to the local MP the services terminating at Sellafield will be extended to Corkickle from the end of the month.

Trains to run to Corkickle from 25th August

I’ve been pushing Northern and Network Rail hard following expert advice I received that it was achievable and I’m delighted to say that they’ve now worked out the solution that will enable them to run trains from Lancaster / Barrow as far as Corkickle instead of terminating at Sellafield for the duration of the Bransty tunnel closure.
They can’t implement it right away, but trains will terminate at Corkickle from the south from a week on Monday (25th August) at the latest. There’ll be a replacement bus service between Corkickle and Whitehaven from where trains will continue on to Carlisle. Trains unfortunately won’t stop at Braystones and Nethertown but customers at those stations can continue to get alternative transport. See the full update I’ve had tonight from Northern and Network Rail below

Josh MacAlister MP

Trains to run to Corkickle from 25th August I’ve been pushing Northern and Network Rail hard following expert advice I received that it was achievable and I’m delighted to say that they’ve now...

www.facebook.com

Not an ideal situation but better than the current one, given that the line is single between St Bees and Corkickle it should not be too much of an issue. Also given that a lot of people in Whitehaven work at Sellafield and let's face it a train is better than a rail replacement bus.

Am surprised the trains aren't stopping at Braystones and Nethertown given they are passing through the two stations.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Am surprised the trains aren't stopping at Braystones and Nethertown given they are passing through the two stations.

Giving time to the request stops probably messes up planning. Arranging Taxis for the (average) 7 who use the stations a day probably won't be too much work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Giving time to the request stops probably messes up planning. Arranging Taxis for the (average) 7 who use the stations a day probably won't be too much work.

As it stands, we are working on fitting a temporary buffer stop installation and fast tracking the completion of the required safety validation for the operation of Class 195s, which will allow us to extend the current trains we are operating through Sellafield onto Corkicle from Monday 25 August. Regretfully this isn’t a perfect solution in terms of the currently planned date (we are working to better it) and the service will call at all stations except Nethertown and Braystones due to platform access issues that we haven’t yet managed to overcome

It seems these services will be Class 195 worked, and work is in progress to clear those north of Sellafield. The quote (from that FB link above) seems to imply access issues to 195s at those two, which could be low-platform related, as the 195 has a higher step than 15x?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

It seems these services will be Class 195 worked, and work is in progress to clear those north of Sellafield. The quote (from that FB link above) seems to imply access issues to 195s at those two, which could be low-platform related, as the 195 has a higher step than 15x?

Yes, it definitely could be, especially for those two.

 

[King Lazy]

If ever the tunnel was closed maybe it would be time for a tram-train project. It was possible to get from just south of the present Corkickle station to Whitehaven by rail.

It could be done again although as it’s the UK probably not without being hideously expensive, requiring the evacuation of the town every time a tram was due to traverse the streets and probably being foiled by the finding of a rare type of tarmac dwelling moth.

 

[ScottGallagher]

Yes, it definitely could be, especially for those two.

Surely a Harrington Hump in the long term just at one door as it used to be on the Barrow platform Dalton with the 185 fleet? Not a huge obstacle, really.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely a Harrington Hump in the long term just at one door as it used to be on the Barrow platform Dalton with the 185 fleet? Not a huge obstacle, really.

The stations do appear to have Harrington humps; perhaps it's an issue with their position?

That said, TfW do seem to quite happily release all doors at very low platforms on the Conwy Valley - it's a heck of a jump down at some, probably about a foot and a half.

 

[ScottGallagher]

The stations do appear to have Harrington humps; perhaps it's an issue with their position?

That said, TfW do seem to quite happily release all doors at very low platforms on the Conwy Valley - it's a heck of a jump down at some, probably about a foot and a half.

Yeah must be the positions I guess as its a new stock type to the route so it's a whole new set of risk asessments

 

[thenorthern]

Looking at platform lengths both Braystones and Nethertown have relatively short platforms which would mean selective door opening, plus the fact that the Class 195s that operate along the Furness line are 3 coach trains minimum there would be an issue stopping at the stations particularly given that both of them have unmanned, unguarded barrow crossings at the end of each platform.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can still see this being insurmountable. There are so many legalities and liabilities to work through (all which will surely cost a fortune, solicitors are fairly far removed from charity!)

Then there's the actual engineering issue - if some of these mine workings are unrecorded then it's unlikely that the extent is (as yet) understood, so any design will have a degree of 'suck it and see' what's the contingency if the grout they pump either just keeps disappearing down the hole, or mixes with seawater and doesn't get to the right strength required?

Tipping a never ending supply of weak concrete down the hole until it stops could get very expensive if it continues for a long time.

At what point does continuing become uneconomic?
From the terrain there doesn't appear to be any possibility of a loop around the edge of the town to reach the northern station from the north.

It is not a strategic route. Once Sellafield no longer needs rail access, the whole railway line from Whitehaven to Barrow could be closed completely with a limited bus service provided between these points.

I think closing the whole thing would be rather extreme. But based on previous operating patterns (e.g. years ago there was no Sunday service on the middle bit) I don't think renaming Whitehaven to Whitehaven Central/Whitehaven North and Corkickle to Whitehaven South and running it as a pair of branch lines would be that disastrous, and indeed could lead to a simplified service that might be better for many passengers, e.g. just extending Newcastle-Carlisle to Whitehaven Central and running direct from Whitehaven South to Manchester Airport.

An appropriate pattern would perhaps be hourly Manchester Airport-Millom with two hourly extensions to Whitehaven South (modified with potential extras for Sellafield shift times), with the usual couple of short workings for Windermere to get its directs.

Post Sellafield I could then see sense in cutting the southern branch back to Millom, as north of there is very rural and if travelling from the south of the line or Lancaster to the north of the line you'd be as quick going via Carlisle.

 

[janb]

Post Sellafield I could then see sense in cutting the southern branch back to Millom, as north of there is very rural and if travelling from the south of the line or Lancaster to the north of the line you'd be as quick going via Carlisle.

I think the Ravenglass and Eskdale Railway, and the associated tourist activity might have something to say about that, as would coast to coasters at St Bees (another lovely spot) and the people of "Whitehaven South".

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the Ravenglass and Eskdale Railway, and the associated tourist activity might have something to say about that, as would coast to coasters at St Bees (another lovely spot) and the people of "Whitehaven South".

I'd imagine that almost all visitors to "La'al Ratty" arrive by car as per every other preserved line. St Bees isn't especially far from Whitehaven, so if there are enough people for that then a cycle friendly bus service would emerge, or they'll just, er, cycle there from Whitehaven.

It's about one of the least problematic closures I can imagine bar the Parliamentary services. Probably less problematic than even Stranraer once operations at Sellafield finish. If converted to a footpath it might even be more popular than as a rail service given the popularity of walking the English coastal path now and given that a fair bit of the nominal England Coast Path along there is on road.

 

[StoneRoad]

I'd imagine that almost all visitors to "La'al Ratty" arrive by car as per every other preserved line. St Bees isn't especially far from Whitehaven, so if there are enough people for that then a cycle friendly bus service would emerge, or they'll just, er, cycle there from Whitehaven.

It's about one of the least problematic closures I can imagine bar the Parliamentary services. Probably less problematic than even Stranraer once operations at Sellafield finish. If converted to a footpath it might even be more popular than as a rail service given the popularity of walking the English coastal path now and given that a fair bit of the nominal England Coast Path along there is on road.

Quite a few do travel by rail to L'aal Ratty, especially walkers in "peak season" - one of the reasons that the Ravenglass footbridge has been restored recently.
[Having a walking route along the road wasn't fun for anybody]

I wonder if Lakeland Estates have done any surveys of where their L'aal Ratty passengers started off that morning ?
I know that's something the F&WHR have done a few times over the years.

 

[InkyScrolls]

I can definitely see the section between Millom and Whitehaven shutting, with services currently terminating at Barrow running through consistently to Millom, and Whitehaven being operated as a self-contained branch from Carlisle. I doubt the Newcastle services would ever be extended through due to having to cross Carlisle station throat, however.

 

[ScottGallagher]

I think closing the whole thing would be rather extreme. But based on previous operating patterns (e.g. years ago there was no Sunday service on the middle bit) I don't think renaming Whitehaven to Whitehaven Central/Whitehaven North and Corkickle to Whitehaven South and running it as a pair of branch lines would be that disastrous, and indeed could lead to a simplified service that might be better for many passengers, e.g. just extending Newcastle-Carlisle to Whitehaven Central and running direct from Whitehaven South to Manchester Airport.

An appropriate pattern would perhaps be hourly Manchester Airport-Millom with two hourly extensions to Whitehaven South (modified with potential extras for Sellafield shift times), with the usual couple of short workings for Windermere to get its directs.

Post Sellafield I could then see sense in cutting the southern branch back to Millom, as north of there is very rural and if travelling from the south of the line or Lancaster to the north of the line you'd be as quick going via Carlisle.

At first i was sceptical.about this but in reality if the shuttle bus stays and is an accessible low floor vehicle it becomes a best for most situation. People have much worse interchanges for onward jouneys to another rail station to carry on a journey. London Underground being the obvious one!

Sellafield may well get more of a reprieve in due course , they are opening admin offices in Millom shortly if not already and it wasnt that long ago that it was a proposed site for another plant!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sellafield may well get more of a reprieve in due course , they are opening admin offices in Millom shortly if not already and it wasnt that long ago that it was a proposed site for another plant!

A new plant there would be a very good thing. We need more nuclear, and if you put them where existing ones are or have been, local opposition would be very limited as people are used to it being there and like the jobs etc it brings.

 

[HSTEd]

A new plant probably won't lead to much increase in rail traffic, maybe some transitory cement or stone traffic, but that would be competing with a temporary pier - which probably would have to be installed either way.

Once the plant is operational the railway would be irrelevant.

 

[StoneRoad]

Tootling around Whitehaven / Sellafield you can tell that it's "shift change" by the extra car traffic.
Whilst they were sorting out Corkicle into a terminus, the chaos from the extra traffic was impressive.
Some extra car journeys still being made ...

 

[ScottGallagher]

A new plant probably won't lead to much increase in rail traffic, maybe some transitory cement or stone traffic, but that would be competing with a temporary pier - which probably would have to be installed either way.

Once the plant is operational the railway would be irrelevant.

But it would be a means of getting a workforce in and out in an area with a poor road network, this is after all speculation but the railway would have a role to play.

 

[Straus]

The economic case doesn't stack up, the reality is that this line costs the country money to remain open, so it's down to whether it can be demonstrated that the social value of the line is very significant, and I think the passenger numbers aren't telling that story.

Is £35M best spent to reopen a tunnel serving a very small number of people, or better spent on resilience of the WCML which has significant national impacts when closed? I know where my money would go

 

[yorksrob]

Is £35M best spent to reopen a tunnel serving a very small number of people,

Yes, its not an either/or question.

The country spends greater sums on various local road projects, so keeping the Cumbrian coast running is good value.

 

[mcmad]

Yes, its not an either/or question.

The country spends greater sums on various local road projects, so keeping the Cumbrian coast running is good value.

Unfortunately it is an either/or question as Network Rail's funding is fixed for the control period so whatever is spent on reopening the tunnel will be money that can't be spent elsewhere in the North West.

 

[yorksrob]

Unfortunately it is an either/or question as Network Rail's funding is fixed for the control period so whatever is spent on reopening the tunnel will be money that can't be spent elsewhere in the North West.

Politically its not an either/or question.

However if funding has to come out of the current budget, then NR has to get on with it. It's job is to get the railway running, not to pick and choose which lines it fancies running.

 

[duffield]

I think the simple issue is that closing the line would be politically unacceptable, plus it's not in NRs remit to abandon lines. NR will probably move money from the general renewals budget to this project (which of course is not a good thing for the long term) and it will get done somehow.