Llanelli station - why are bus links so poor?

[Old Yard Dog]

Many NR stations have poor bus links but few can be surprising as Llanelli.

The railway station is just short of a mile shy of the town centre (and bus station) down a busy main road in a heavily built up area. Yet it is only served by the infrequent and very indirect L1/L2 circular.

It seems odd that an important mainline railway station is so poorly served. It would seem to make sense to extend the 111 Swansea - Llanelli bus out to the railway station, so why don't they? Do First Bus want to keep Llanelli - Swansea traffic to themselves perhaps rather than encourage passengers to switch to rail?

 

[Smwrff]

As part of new bus laws in Wales, TfW will franchise all bus services - with rail integration - and South West Wales being the first region to be rolled out. There is a program of consultations ongoing so check in with TfW and have your say.

 

[Envoy]

They are going to build a new bus terminal at Llanelli station. It is ridiculous that the town bus station is 1 mile fromm the station. Hopefully they will have a bus that goes from Llanelli to Carmarthen via Tumble, Drefach and the National Botanic Garden of Wales?

 

[Dai Corner]

Extending a service from the bus station to the railway station might well mean an extra bus and driver are required, or layovers are cut to the bone resulting in poor reliability.

The powers that be might decide to do so, but if there is no extra funding it will be at the expense of something else (perhaps the L1/L2).

 

[Envoy]

Extending a service from the bus station to the railway station might well mean an extra bus and driver are required, or layovers are cut to the bone resulting in poor reliability.

The powers that be might decide to do so, but if there is no extra funding it will be at the expense of something else (perhaps the L1/L2).

All those extensive 20mph speed limits can't have helped! Well, that's what the good people of Llanelli wanted as it was pushed forward by their Senedd Member Lee Waters.

 

[bahnause]

All those extensive 20mph speed limits can't have helped! Well, that's what the good people of Llanelli wanted as it was the pushed forward by their Senedd Member Lee Waters.

Were there better bus connections at the station before the 20mph speed limit was introduced?

 

[Envoy]

Were there better bus connections at the station before the 20mph speed limit was introduced?

Nope - unless you go back to the 50’s & 60’s when South Wales Transport ran the buses and they always had a bus to meet the trains and go up to Felinfoel.

 

[Zomboid]

They are going to build a new bus terminal at Llanelli station. It is ridiculous that the town bus station is 1 mile fromm the station

I'm told that in Swansea, the bus company didn't want to have the bus station next to the railway station, to try and force people to use the bus into town.

Not sure that worked out how they hoped, and I wouldn't be surprised if a similar thing happened here.

 

[daodao]

Historically, both Llanelli's tramway and later trolleybus routes started at the railway station, ran to the town centre and following electrification then radiated out to the suburbs along 3 main routes. In 1952, after electricity nationalisation, the trolleybus undertaking was sold to South Wales Transport, who promptly replaced the trolleybuses with motor buses, and subsequently curtailed the suburban routes to terminate in the town centre.

 

[splashoutradio]

I've just had a little dig into busses in the general region of Llanelli, and hadn't quite realised how poor the transport offerings are. The (possibly mislead) optimist inside of me hopes that this will improve with TfW franchising.

 

[aron2smith]

I'm told that in Swansea, the bus company didn't want to have the bus station next to the railway station, to try and force people to use the bus into town.

Not sure that worked out how they hoped, and I wouldn't be surprised if a similar thing happened here.

Seen that in a number of places all across England and Wales and seems incredibly short sighted. Most of London fails with decent bus-train interchanges in the outer areas too, but at least buses often stop near enough to not miss them. But when I travelled around Greater Manchester, Tyne and Wear and much of Scotland, I was very impressed and jealous of all the multi-modal interchanges.

Llanelli was disappointing with its lack of interaction between bus and train and deserves better. Swansea has a massive bus station, I wonder if it was a case of where land was much more available too?

 

[stuu]

I'm told that in Swansea, the bus company didn't want to have the bus station next to the railway station, to try and force people to use the bus into town.

Isn't that because the vast majority of bus passengers are heading into town and not connecting to a train?

 

[Dai Corner]

Bus stations are where they are because that's where most passengers want to go. Railway stations are where they are so the trains can reach them. Occasionally the two coincide.

 

[nwales58]

Bus stations are where they are because that's where most passengers want to go. Railway stations are where they are so the trains can reach them. Occasionally the two coincide.

However, it is often possible to combine the objectives. Amersfoort and Hagen come to mind as smaller places with a rail+bus station out of the centre, (non-town) services originating at the station pass through or loop around the centre on their way elsewhere.

But even with colocation, whether TfW with new powers will be able to timetable connections I doubt. Bangor is dreadful.

 

[WAB]

But even with colocation, whether TfW with new powers will be able to timetable connections I doubt. Bangor is dreadful.

Funnily enough, I notice there's a new job advert up on the TFW website....

Rail-bus Strategic Timetable Integration Manager​

Job description​

Role responsibilities
The Rail-Bus Strategic Timetable Integration Manager will be responsible for identifying opportunities to provide better, intermodal journeys between TfW Rail, TfW Bus and 3rd party bus and private rail operators. They will assist with strategic timetable development, creating draft and bid-quality timetables that deliver TfW (Transport for Wales) commitments. When creating timetables, they will ensure compliance with train planning rules and concession commitments.

Responsibilities include, but are not limited to, the following.

• Ensure Safety standards and practices are considered and applied to every aspect of strategic planning.
• Assist in the development of a Strategic Train Plan for future timetable changes, including the timetable, Rolling Stock diagrams and Traincrew diagrams; using project management discipline to deliver output to meet governance requirements and according to deadlines.
• Using proprietary software (Attune) to create train timetables compliant with Train Planning Rules (TPR’s), and which comply with TfWRL’s contractual commitments (Train Service Requirements).
• Identifying positive business cases to improve the customer experience on intermodal journey, reduce costs and increase TfW revenue.

Who we’re looking for

• Good understanding of railway operations
• Good understanding of bus operations, legislation and regulation
• Excellent motivation and influencing skills
• Proven track record of delivering objectives and results
• Excellent communications skills, including reports and presentations
• Knowledge and experience of railway industry processes, especially those between the operator and Network Rail
• Knowledge and experience of working in a multi-stakeholder environment, with a proven track record of maximising benefit for customers
• Positive and proactive approach to problem solving
• Critical thinking applied to improve business results

https://comeaboard.co.uk/ce0523li_webrecruitment/wrd/run/etrec179gf.open?WVID=55383415pc&LANG=USA&VACANCY_ID=299149KdEB

 

[Sheridan]

However, it is often possible to combine the objectives. Amersfoort and Hagen come to mind as smaller places with a rail+bus station out of the centre, (non-town) services originating at the station pass through or loop around the centre on their way elsewhere.

But even with colocation, whether TfW with new powers will be able to timetable connections I doubt. Bangor is dreadful.

To be fair Bangor usually has one rail arrival per hour and multiple bus services - they can’t all connect.

 

[nwales58]

Look at Trawscymru-rail connections generally.

However that job advert gives hope.

I was shocked recently in Norway to find that at Grong, well north of Trondheim, the evening trains both ways connected to and from 3 long-distance bus routes. Unlike my journey home from the airport.

 

[Envoy]

It is good to see the effort being made in Wales to get bus / rail integration. It is most annoying that in Swansea, anybody wishing to go from the train station to the Gower does not have a direct bus. For north Gower, perhaps more use could be made of Gowerton station as a rail/bus interchange?

I was not impressed by the bus links at Cheltenham station a couple of weeks ago. (I put a post about this in the Buses section of the forum).https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/cheltenham-rail-station-poorly-served-by-buses.289601/

 

[aron2smith]

I was not impressed by the bus links at Cheltenham station a couple of weeks ago. (I put a post about this in the Buses section of the forum).https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/cheltenham-rail-station-poorly-served-by-buses.289601/

Yes! Cheltenham is such a contrast to Gloucester next door. The bus station is only across the street from the rail station in Gloucester, quite a pleasant and modern facility too. So even neighbouring towns in the same county seem to vary a lot on this.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

I'm told that in Swansea, the bus company didn't want to have the bus station next to the railway station, to try and force people to use the bus into town.

Not sure that worked out how they hoped, and I wouldn't be surprised if a similar thing happened here.

I doubt that you're correct abour Swansea. It's hard to imagine quite where a bus station could have been located close to Swansea (High Street) and the original bus station, on a slightly different site to the current one, was quite conveinient for both Swansea (Victoria) and Swansea (Rutland Street) the termini for most commuter services.

 

[stuu]

Yes! Cheltenham is such a contrast to Gloucester next door. The bus station is only across the street from the rail station in Gloucester, quite a pleasant and modern facility too. So even neighbouring towns in the same county seem to vary a lot on this.

But that's down to where the railway station is in both places - Gloucester station is right next to the city centre, Cheltenham very much isn't. Nothing else

 

[Mincemeat]

Bus stations are where they are because that's where most passengers want to go. Railway stations are where they are so the trains can reach them. Occasionally the two coincide.

As opposed to many stations in Switzerland, including small rural ones, where the local bus will connect with trains at the railway station providing valuable links to local communities.

'Integration' is an often used term in the UK; however timetables are often operationally focussed rather than on the needs of the passenger.

 

[RT4038]

But that's down to where the railway station is in both places - Gloucester station is right next to the city centre, Cheltenham very much isn't. Nothing else

The railways had a station in Cheltenham right in the town centre - oh, they closed that.....

'Integration' is an often used term in the UK; however timetables are often operationally focussed rather than on the needs of the passenger.

It is the usual problem of who is going to pay, because you can be sure that railway passengers changing onto bus services and vice versa don't want to be paying the true cost of this integration in their fares.

 

[stuu]

The railways had a station in Cheltenham right in the town centre - oh, they closed that.....

The Midland route was far more sensible to keep for everywhere except Cheltenham. Perhaps in a more enlightened age a link could have been built to the north so the GW route would have had the station, but it wasn't so...

 

[Mincemeat]

The railways had a station in Cheltenham right in the town centre - oh, they closed that.....


It is the usual problem of who is going to pay, because you can be sure that railway passengers changing onto bus services and vice versa don't want to be paying the true cost of this integration in their fares.

It seems to work perfectly fine elsewhere in Europe. There's too much emphasis in the UK on "lowering the burden on the tax payer."

Without continual investment, as is evident across the UK, we fall behind the standards seen in Europe, which in turn discourages people from using it.

I have no issue paying the appropriate fare if the service is reliable and good quality.

 

[RT4038]

It seems to work perfectly fine elsewhere in Europe. There's too much emphasis in the UK on "lowering the burden on the tax payer."

Without continual investment, as is evident across the UK, we fall behind the standards seen in Europe, which in turn discourages people from using it.

We are not 'elsewhere in Europe', we are in the UK and you will have to convince your fellow citizens that the tax burden needs to be increased for this purpose. Good luck with that.

I have no issue paying the appropriate fare if the service is reliable and good quality.

'Appropriate' rather than the cost of provision'? So presumably you would have an issue with paying for the cost of provision, and would rather others did that for you?

 

[Mincemeat]

Why is providing good public transport a "tax burden"?

 

[Dai Corner]

Why is providing good public transport a "tax burden"?

It depends what you mean by 'good' but basically if the politicians want better services that wouldn't cover their costs through fares they pay for that out of our taxes.