Chiltern MK5s Starting 2026 (non speculative updates thread)

[172007]

I am guessing that the First Class situation is a compromise. If the fares are indeed sold as an upgrade on the day then it may well give the conductor a revenue earning duty justifying previously DOO trains running with a second member of crew.

Remember 168's run Marylebone to Banbury DOO at present.

 

[Energy]

I am guessing that the First Class situation is a compromise. If the fares are indeed sold as an upgrade on the day then it may well give the conductor a revenue earning duty justifying previously DOO trains running with a second member of crew.

Remember 168's run Marylebone to Banbury DOO at present.

The first class onboard upgrade is temporary until first class tickets are introduced.

Eventually, most Birmingham services will be Mk5A operated with only a few 168 ones, until then I don’t think they’re confident enough to offer first class tickets, incase a 168 ends up turning up instead. Id imagine it’ll be similar to Cardiff, where most services have first class but the few 387 operated ones don’t.

 

[BlueLeanie]

In the current configuration (261 standard, 30 first) they have less standard seats than a 4 car 168 (272 all standard).

How does the 261+30 compare the capacity of the current Mk3 sets they are using though? They always feel very low density, and are always full by the time they reach Haddenham in the morning.

 

[Loadhaul60059]

Does this essentially mean the 68's that are currently working on the Marylebone - Birmingham line will be replaced by the 68's currently in store?

 

[43096]

Does this essentially mean the 68's that are currently working on the Marylebone - Birmingham line will be replaced by the 68's currently in store?

Yes.

 

[Energy]

That is comparing apples and oranges, though. One is a half-life train, the other is all-but-new, so you would expect a difference. We also do not know the terms of the deal - are the 379s on a dry lease (so no maintenance element in the ROSCO cost)? What maintenance is Beacon responsible for on the Mark 5s? We do not know enough to make a comparison.

Beacon is responsible for maintenance till December 2026, then it’s up to Chiltern for the remainder of the contract. GTR/Hornsey are handling maintenance on the 379s.

The mk5As are 7-8 years old, so aren’t particularly new but have spent a lot of time in storage. They aren’t a perfect comparison but I still think it’s useful.



== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Aug 2025 ==

How does the 261+30 compare the capacity of the current Mk3 sets they are using though? They always feel very low density, and are always full by the time they reach Haddenham in the morning.

Depends on the set but the vehicles are roughly 70 standard per mk3. So about 350 standard class.

 

[hexagon789]

How does the 261+30 compare the capacity of the current Mk3 sets they are using though? They always feel very low density, and are always full by the time they reach Haddenham in the morning.

The TSOL vehicles seat 69 (+4 tip-up), the TSO seat 72 (+6 tip-up) and the GFW seat 30 First.

 

[FrontSideBus]

The issue when at Scarborough was the low frequency noise, that you feel as well as hear. On a quiet still morning you could hear them leaving Scarborough at Seamer station.

When I was walking across from Birmingham New St to Moore St, I was looking up as it sounded like there was a Chinook or something flying over! But it was just the 68 idling at the end of the platform! The sort of tunnel roadway section that you have to pass under must have been acting like a bass reflex tube!

 

[Yorkshire09876]

Does this essentially mean the 68's that are currently working on the Marylebone - Birmingham line will be replaced by the 68's currently in store?

Yes.

68019-32

 

[43096]

68019-32

If they'd like to hire 68033, too, in "times of need" from DRS, that would be most welcome!

 

[800001]

So 4 coaches of standard class (plus one fresh air carrying FC coach) to replace 6 coaches...

They better break out the 'reported full and standing' messages again

So before they have even started, you have decided first class will be carrying fresh air.

If they price the upgrade at a sensible price, people will use it!

It would be good if they also used seat frog as that would also ensure some revenue and customers coming into the first class

 

[87015]

68019-32

016-032 for Chiltern

 

[43096]

016-032 for Chiltern

Do you have a source for that, because the off lease (or to be off leased) fleet of 68s is 68019-032.

 

[Deepgreen]

Regarding the first class - have I interpreted it correctly to mean that first class will only be available as an on-the-day upgrade - i.e. not bookable from the outset as first class? If so, this must be a (bizarre) first for the UK.

 

[A S Leib]

Regarding the first class - have I interpreted it correctly to mean that first class will only be available as an on-the-day upgrade - i.e. not bookable from the outset as first class? If so, this must be a (bizarre) first for the UK.

I'd guess that First season ticket holders from e.g. Coventry to London terminals would be able to use it via Leamington Spa (with the any permitted currently the only First fare in that case), although I suspect people paying that much would generally stick with Avanti for the speed and refreshments.

 

[Harpo]

The briefing quoted in posts above says (in route diagram form) that the Mk5s will be found between London and Birmingham/Stourbridge Jn which seems to suggest that Oxford & Stratford are not on the agenda.

 

[barbette165]

Regarding the first class - have I interpreted it correctly to mean that first class will only be available as an on-the-day upgrade - i.e. not bookable from the outset as first class? If so, this must be a (bizarre) first for the UK.

It will be an 'on the day' upgrade until December 2026, when first class tickets will become available. I guess this arrangement is to cover the introduction period, where advance forecasting of which journeys will be Mk5A operated could not be provided with any real degree of confidence.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Chiltern have now announced this publicly. Notably it seems 1st is being retained as a paid-for upgrade, which is surprising given that they abandoned that with the Mk3s. I'm surprised they don't reseat that coach to Standard to up capacity.

I suspect this also confirms they will have guards, as selling the upgrades could be awkward otherwise, unless they exclusively do it via Seatfrog or something.

Full details here:

New Trains | Chiltern Railways

www.chilternrailways.co.uk

Fantastic news for Chiltern. Get the mk3s whilst you can.

 

[barbette165]

The briefing quoted in posts above says (in route diagram form) that the Mk5s will be found between London and Birmingham/Stourbridge Jn which seems to suggest that Oxford & Stratford are not on the agenda.

A 2 car 168 (or 165) is almost always* sufficient for the level of traffic to Stratford, so a 5 carriage train would be overkill. Additionally, do the Mk5As have SDO which would be needed for any service that calls at Bearley?

* In the past there has been special events like Global Gathering at Long Marston airfield, that brought in huge volumes but then a special service operated. (The airfield is now a housing estate).

 

[RailWonderer]

The briefing quoted in posts above says (in route diagram form) that the Mk5s will be found between London and Birmingham/Stourbridge Jn which seems to suggest that Oxford & Stratford are not on the agenda.

It still frees more 168s for Oxford which will be much more welcomed than 165s as an alternative to the IET trip from Paddington - Oxford.

 

[Snow1964]

A 2 car 168 (or 165) is almost always* sufficient for the level of traffic to Stratford, so a 5 carriage train would be overkill. Additionally, do the Mk5As have SDO which would be needed for any service that calls at Bearley?

Neither Stratford or Bearley appear on the map on Chiltern's factsheet

https://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/sites/default/files/2025-08/MK%205A%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf

 

[lumitumey12345]

Will the mk5's be displacing any of Chilterns existing fleet?

 

[43096]

Will the mk5's be displacing any of Chilterns existing fleet?

The Mark 3s.

 

[lumitumey12345]

The Mark 3s.

Any 168s?

 

[centraltrains]

This seems rather a big downgrade in capacity flexibility?

Can only find one 8 car diagram today...

Realtime Trains | 1H11 0615 Birmingham Moor Street to London Marylebone | 05/08/2025

Real-time train running information for 1H11 0615 departure from Birmingham Moor Street to London Marylebone on 05/08/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

...sure pre-covid there were more 6+ car 168s to Brum in the peaks, seem to remember a mega 7/8 car 168+165 hybrid going to Snow Hill and then shortening in Snow Hill for the return working in the evening.

 

[43096]

Any 168s?

The 165s and 168s have leases that run through until December 2027.

 

[rmHawk765]

I experienced the 68s + Mk5s on TPE during the short period of use. Ride is not so much 'rough' as 'jiggly', not sure why.

As far as I am aware, it is the slightly subpar CAF bogie design and is an issue on 397s as well.

 

[Sparks807Evo]

This seems rather a big downgrade in capacity flexibility?

Can only find one 8 car diagram today...

Realtime Trains | 1H11 0615 Birmingham Moor Street to London Marylebone | 05/08/2025

Real-time train running information for 1H11 0615 departure from Birmingham Moor Street to London Marylebone on 05/08/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

...sure pre-covid there were more 6+ car 168s to Brum in the peaks, seem to remember a mega 7/8 car 168+165 hybrid going to Snow Hill and then shortening in Snow Hill for the return working in the evening.

Part of the issue at the moment is that the 168 refurbishment programme keeps taking out at least a couple of units - prior to that kept having units out of traffic for various reasons (including what proved to be a pointless hybrid trial with 168329). I would hope once the programme is done that should help with things.

In addition Chiltern never had any replacements for the 172s, which stretched the 165s a bit further.

You are totally right that the flexibility is reduced, and seat number wise offer a marginal gain over a 4 car 168 - also my concern is that when one of these fails, then that is the job stopped until it is rescued. Not like a multiple unit which can keep going if it loses an engine!

Will the mk5's be displacing any of Chilterns existing fleet?

Think I saw something at Moor Street on the Rail 200 train but in short nothing displaced with this - 165s will stay until a new fleet is procured (possibly as part of a joint procurement exercise). The extra capacity created internally is much needed!

 

[Energy]

A 2 car 168 (or 165) is almost always* sufficient for the level of traffic to Stratford, so a 5 carriage train would be overkill.

The service at present isn't brilliant. Stratford-Upon-Avon to Leamington Spa takes about the same amount of time by train as by the X18 bus, which is every 30 mins (train is every 2 hours...) and can drop you in a more convenient location.

If you want to go to London from Stratford and can drive, it's a lot quicker to drive 15 minutes to Warwick Parkway and catch the train from there, especially if you don't live near Stratford station.

Stratford-Upon-Avon - London via Warwick Parkway would be a good contender for a bus+rail combined ticket.

In addition Chiltern never had any replacements for the 172s, which stretched the 165s a bit further.

Indeed, though the 172s lacking tripcocks meant they had pretty limited use at Chiltern.

If you gave the Leamington Spa - Stratford-Upon-Avon/Birmingham to WMR, that would compensate for the couple of 172s Chiltern had out.

You are totally right that the flexibility is reduced, and seat number wise offer a marginal gain over a 4 car 168

I'm concerned about Wembley match days. Currently, Chiltern shuffles maintenance about to get long 6-car formations on match day shuttles; the current 4-car 168 equivalent capacity of the Mk5As is going to be insufficient for match days.

 

[D365]

If they'd like to hire 68033, too, in "times of need" from DRS, that would be most welcome!

033 has the CAF modifications too? What about 034?