Lumo Stirling - Possible diversion routes

[Peter0124]

Let's assume the line is blocked for whatever reason between Motherwell and Whifflet, would they be sent via Wishaw missing out Motherwell?

And if the line is blocked between Mossend Junctions and Whifflet, would they be sent further down the WCML to Polmadie sidings and reverse and via Carmyle and Coatbridge Central? Or is sending the train via Haymarket a likely option?

 

[styles]

Or they would cancel their services, tell customers to buy a new to let for another operator and put in a claim for compensation. At least, that's what Hull Trains did on ECML when they had a driver shortage a few weeks back.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Likely just terminate at Carlisle/ Motherwell unless such a scenario is going to be a semi-regular occurrence, which it currently is not.

The diversions for Lumo Stirling are likely to be the various route permutations south of Preston.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Let's assume the line is blocked for whatever reason between Motherwell and Whifflet, would they be sent via Wishaw missing out Motherwell?

And if the line is blocked between Mossend Junctions and Whifflet, would they be sent further down the WCML to Polmadie sidings and reverse and via Carmyle and Coatbridge Central? Or is sending the train via Haymarket a likely option?

Lumo have booked services via Wishaw.

Realtime Trains | 1M03 1709 Stirling to London Euston | 17/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 1M03 1709 departure from Stirling to London Euston on 17/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

On an unrelated note, possibly a whole new topic, but the new Lumo paths are worse than I expected, at least for the most part.

Definitely competing with West Midlands Trains rather than Avanti - I am very surprised to see such slow journeys with so few stops.

 

[Egg Centric]

On an unrelated note, possibly a whole new topic, but the new Lumo paths are worse than I expected, at least for the most part.

Definitely competing with West Midlands Trains rather than Avanti - I am very surprised to see such slow journeys with so few stops.

You're not wrong. The 1846 Avanti from Carlisle gets in 50 minutes sooner to Euston than the 1851 Lumo!

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

3 hours London to Crewe on a Sunday morning, over 7 hours to Stirling.

Even the weekday paths - I can't see these being viable for Lumo, unless they're expecting the situation to improve in a future timetable - they're awful. They'll have to compete with the West Midlands Trains fares rather than Avanti with these journey times, so profitability is going to be dented hugely.

Stopping patterns and calling points are also all over the place and inconsistent - obviously to fit into the existing WCML timetable - but it isn't good for building your market.

Doesn't seem to have decent connections with anything at Motherwell or Stirling either.

Where the Blackpool services proposed by Grand Central this bad?

 

[waverley47]

Lumo have booked services via Wishaw.

Realtime Trains | 1M03 1709 Stirling to London Euston | 17/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 1M03 1709 departure from Stirling to London Euston on 17/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

That's 42 minutes of allowances between Preston and Euston!

 

[Peter0124]

Maybe they couldn't get fast paths throughout the WCML?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Maybe they couldn't get fast paths throughout the WCML?

They are (mostly) fast paths. Just bad ones that seemingly only work with ridiculously long dwells and every kind of allowance that exists. I'd be inclined to think that most of the time, trains will be arriving very early at intermediate stations for even longer dwells, but can't depart early because they're full open stops.

Sunday morning has the usual engineering allowances/diversions.

If this is literally what was left for Lumo on the WCML, I'm not surprised ORR refused all those recent open access applications. I thought there was useable capacity - not capacity that only exists as a result of some very artful and elaborate planning.

 

[800001]

Bear in mind some of the Lumo paths on ECML had some severely slow timings and slack timings. Yet people still book on them!

Price them right and people will travel on them!

 

[The Planner]

That's 42 minutes of allowances between Preston and Euston!

That is a really poor example to use. Its on the two track south of Milton Keynes so were always going to be following something.

 

[38Cto15E]

Would these trains be the first scheduled passenger trains through Mossend Yard in a long time or are there some Scotrail services which do this?
It used to be fun on 'The Clansman'

 

[JonathanH]

Would these trains be the first scheduled passenger trains through Mossend Yard in a long time or are there some Scotrail services which do this?
It used to be fun on 'The Clansman'

There is a regular hourly Scotrail service from Cumbernauld to Motherwell (and onwards via Hamilton and Glasgow to Dalmuir) already.

 

[Some guy]

Via chat moss and also via Bolton towards Manchester towards Crewe should definitely be route learned

Via Aston and also via Stoke on Trent should be learnt the more routes signed the less likely chance of a rail replacement bus service

 

[JonathanH]

Via chat moss and also via Bolton towards Manchester towards Crewe should definitely be route learned

Via Aston and also via Stoke on Trent should be learnt the more routes signed the less likely chance of a rail replacement bus service

If diversionary paths are at a premium, should Lumo's service be prioritised over the core Avanti service, and other local trains?

Some will say that the open access operator should maintain diversionary knowledge, but the diversionary routes by their nature don't have the same capacity as the normal one.

 

[Some guy]

Nope definitely not especially as it goes into nationalisation very soon. There should still be room to fit in a lumo diversion especially as there’s only 5 tpd so far

 

[mm333]

Does the ECML Lumo have any diversionary routes? Hertford Loop?

Anything else and they just curtail services or bustitute.

 

[The Planner]

Via chat moss and also via Bolton towards Manchester towards Crewe should definitely be route learned

Via Aston and also via Stoke on Trent should be learnt the more routes signed the less likely chance of a rail replacement bus service

It will be a while before they go big on diversions, if they do at all. West Mids and Manchester will be a given. Chat Moss and routes like Alsager wouldn't be a priority.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Lumo diversionary services on the ECML is restricted to electric lines only, unlike Hull Trains which has very wide diversionary knowledge. Lumo on the WCML will tend towards the Hull Trains diversionary model but they need time to get staff trained up. First priority will be the normal routes.

In times of perturbation, NR produces a capacity plan which largely determines who gets the paths. Lumo, being only load 6, will be at a disadvantage if capacity on a diversionary route is constrained.

 

[Merle Haggard]

It will be a while before they go big on diversions, if they do at all. West Mids and Manchester will be a given. Chat Moss and routes like Alsager wouldn't be a priority.

Just out of interest, what happens when the line is blocked unexpectedly?
I was on an Avanti down Liverpool when Colwich - Crewe was blocked in front of us by a variation of the usual, and we stood at the junction for a while before going to Stoke. There we waited the arrival of a driver (on a down Manchester - presumably a driver swap) who, unlike our driver, knew Alsager (guessing from the sequence of events - it was the 2nd down M/cr).
A bit messy (when Avanti were rushing drivers through without full route knowledge) but how would Lumo cope? We obviously blocked the line at the junction for a while whilst presumably discussions were held but Lumo would have been completely stumped, I would think.
There's a WCML diversion about once a month (a practice going back a very long time) that hasn't been mentioned, either...

 

[BlueLeanie]

Lumo have booked services via Wishaw.

Realtime Trains | 1M03 1709 Stirling to London Euston | 17/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 1M03 1709 departure from Stirling to London Euston on 17/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Looking at the times, I think 5 hours from Stirling to Milton Keynes Central is very good indeed. According to the journey planner, it's not possible to do the journey any quicker at the moment.

 

[Bald Rick]

Just out of interest, what happens when the line is blocked unexpectedly?

If they dont sign the diverson, they will wait or be cancelled, same as with any other operator.

 

[A S Leib]

How likely is it that Northampton would be used? I would add Coventry – Nuneaton, but I'd guess that any scheduled closure would either prevent anything running through Rugby or anything between Rugby and Stafford, so not worth bothering with.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Aug 2025 ==

Stopping patterns and calling points are also all over the place and inconsistent - obviously to fit into the existing WCML timetable - but it isn't good for building your market.

Has the Lumo or Grand Central market at Stevenage or Pontefract particularly suffered for it? (I think from December both cases will have all but 1tpd in each direction calling, and with an hourly LNER competing for Stevenage – Newcastle.)

Where the Blackpool services proposed by Grand Central this bad?

Northbound on weekdays in the planned May 2020 timetable were 07:36–10:15, 11:33–14:10, 12:33–15:05, 15:33–18:15 and 19:33–22:09 for Euston to Preston (so durations of 2:39, 2:37, 2:32, 2:42 and 2:36). 09:46–12:40 would have been the earliest southbound Sunday service from Preston (2:54).

 

[Bald Rick]

How likely is it that Northampton would be used?

Very. That will be a requirement for Lumo drivers.

 

[JonathanH]

How likely is it that Northampton would be used?

Booked working via Northampton on a Saturday evening. This particular service is very slow, although it goes fast line from Hanslope after its trip via Northampton.

Realtime Trains | 1M02 1321 Stirling to London Euston | 20/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 1M02 1321 departure from Stirling to London Euston on 20/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Another, even slower one via Northampton northbound on a Sunday morning.

Realtime Trains | 1S00 0822 London Euston to Stirling | 21/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 1S00 0822 departure from London Euston to Stirling on 21/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Peter0124]

Another, even slower one via Northampton northbound on a Sunday morning.

Realtime Trains | 1S00 0822 London Euston to Stirling | 21/12/2025

Real-time train running information for 1S00 0822 departure from London Euston to Stirling on 21/12/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

The 08:47 Avanti ex Euston gets into Motherwell a whole 40 minutes earlier than that, also going via Northampton aswell!

 

[Merle Haggard]

If they dont sign the diverson, they will wait or be cancelled, same as with any other operator.

Well, yes.
But in the circumstances I outlined, how would the problem be resolved? Wait at Colwich until the route reopens with everything standing behind Lumo?
Or are there contingency plans for the supply of a pilot with route knowledge?
The anecdote I recounted showed that, with a larger train operator, the lack of route knowledge by one particular driver could be overcome, with inconvenience but without blocking the line, because others have it. That's not the Lumo situation as I understand it..

 

[Bald Rick]

Well, yes.
But in the circumstances I outlined, how would the problem be resolved? Wait at Colwich until the route reopens with everything standing behind Lumo?
Or are there contingency plans for the supply of a pilot with route knowledge?
The anecdote I recounted showed that, with a larger train operator, the lack of route knowledge by one particular driver could be overcome, with inconvenience but without blocking the line, because others have it. That's not the Lumo situation as I understand it..

Depends on the exact nature of the blockage, but if it was going to be a long one it would be taken to a suitable station (forward or reverse) for detraining.

 

[Falcon1200]

Would these trains be the first scheduled passenger trains through Mossend Yard in a long time or are there some Scotrail services which do this?

There is a regular hourly Scotrail service from Cumbernauld to Motherwell (and onwards via Hamilton and Glasgow to Dalmuir) already.

Transpennine's 1M73 0744 Glasgow C-Liverpool also goes through Mossend Yard (and via Carmyle, the Mossend North/East Junctions curve and Wishaw - An interesting journey if you're not in a hurry!)