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Chris Gibb - fallout from HS2 proposal on stock and what are/were the options

Tazi Hupefi

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It's a non-issue because if GBR cuts a deal with airlines to offer protected connections on HS2 services to flights via OOC, the rail tickets won't be operator specific, HS2 will be ran by GBR.
I think that's a bit of a naive view.

Unless GBR use every last inch of capacity on HS2, there are almost certainly going to be applications from open access operators, especially those who want to do something a bit more premium and upmarket than what is currently proposed.

GBR will have to put up or shut up!
 
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Austriantrain

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How likely does that currently look, given that it looks like there won't be 6tph from Euston to the eastern leg or 3tph from Curzon Street that way?

The capacity-restraining factor will rather be the capacity of OOC and, in the far future, of the smallish Euston HS2 station.
 

NCT

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This is great except when it isn't. If I book an advance rail ticket involving more than one train, the chances are that my second train will only be valid with one particular train operator. So if I miss my connection then in practice I can't actually catch the next available train if it has a different operator, I have to wait for the next train that is running by the same operator as the one I missed ( which would be through the fault of the operator of the first train, or whatever made their train late).
So if the operator of my second train runs infrequent services, this could cause quite big delays :rolleyes:

This is not a new situation. If you miss your BA connection (either your inbound flight or inbound train is late), you get put onto the next BA flight which may be the next day. Airlines also do deals between themselves - it's not unusual that they put you on a Virgin flight for example if it's later in the day and has spare seats.
 

Shrop

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It's a non-issue because if GBR cuts a deal with airlines to offer protected connections on HS2 services to flights via OOC, the rail tickets won't be operator specific, HS2 will be ran by GBR.
So does that mean flights will wait for late trains? If it's only that "connected" tickets will be valid on later flights, then what happens when the next flights is several hours later? Similarly, will a train really wait for a delayed flight? If I sound sceptical it's because I've had too many experiences of arriving on a slightly delayed train, then finding the next train is there, and there is an advertised connection to catch it, but its staff have neither awareness nor care for passengers of the approaching train, their only concern is to get their own train away. These "connections" are all very well in theory, but in practice things can be very different. If it can't work between trains, then please forgive my scepticism about inter-modal connections.
 

Trainbike46

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So does that mean flights will wait for late trains? If it's only that "connected" tickets will be valid on later flights, then what happens when the next flights is several hours later? Similarly, will a train really wait for a delayed flight? If I sound sceptical it's because I've had too many experiences of arriving on a slightly delayed train, then finding the next train is there, and there is an advertised connection to catch it, but its staff have neither awareness nor care for passengers of the approaching train, their only concern is to get their own train away. These "connections" are all very well in theory, but in practice things can be very different. If it can't work between trains, then please forgive my scepticism about inter-modal connections.
As stated repeatedly, the airlines will do the exact same as what would happen if your inbound flight was delayed. What is so difficult to understand?
 

NCT

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So does that mean flights will wait for late trains? If it's only that "connected" tickets will be valid on later flights, then what happens when the next flights is several hours later? Similarly, will a train really wait for a delayed flight? If I sound sceptical it's because I've had too many experiences of arriving on a slightly delayed train, then finding the next train is there, and there is an advertised connection to catch it, but its staff have neither awareness nor care for passengers of the approaching train, their only concern is to get their own train away. These "connections" are all very well in theory, but in practice things can be very different. If it can't work between trains, then please forgive my scepticism about inter-modal connections.

What happens to someone on an Edinburgh - Heathrow - New York through ticket when the Edinburgh - Heathrow leg is late?
 

Austriantrain

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As stated repeatedly, the airlines will do the exact same as what would happen if your inbound flight was delayed. What is so difficult to understand?

Plenty of examples on the continent (Germany, Austria) where this is exactly how it works. Here in Austria several railjet long-distance services carry a flight number, and if booked as a flight connection, the connection is guaranteed exactly as any connection between two flights booked as one itinerary would be.
 

Krokodil

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I suspect that quite a lot of the potential for this will be the other way. Heathrow will require a transfer via OOC, so it's two trains you're getting to connect to your long-haul flight. Whereas Birmingham Airport will suddenly become much better connected to London, and if phase 2 ever happens Manchester Airport will be far better connected to the south than it ever used to be. It is possible therefore that some long-haul flights might transfer north.
 

fishwomp

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Plenty of examples on the continent (Germany, Austria) where this is exactly how it works. Here in Austria several railjet long-distance services carry a flight number, and if booked as a flight connection, the connection is guaranteed exactly as any connection between two flights booked as one itinerary would be.
I think the poster is thinking 'connection' means something is held. That's largely not been the case on the railway for almost 3 decades now, but in reality never could be nor have been truly a guarantee (no-one would stop the job at New Street because the incoming Edinburgh service was two hours late). What a connection means is that the railway/airline will sort you out - accommodation, onward taxi, whatever is reasonable to fix the problem. When you're delayed on transatlantic flights, they just put you on a different service, even if it means with a different airline.

Transpennine Express do this today with ex-Manchester Airport tickets - if your plane is delayed, and you miss the rail connection, you can go on a later service - it's kind of necessary to be able to sell advanced tickets if the passenger might've come in by plane. It doesn't work the other way round though.. from https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/special-offers/manchester-airport

  • If your flight is delayed on the way home, you can catch the next available TransPennine Express train up to 3 hours after the departure time stated on the ticket. Just don't forget to endorse your ticket at the ticket office before you get on the train.
  • Any advance TransPennine Express ticket from Manchester Airport comes with the added flexibility, no matter how you buy it. So you can buy your train ticket the way you usually would. Easy!
 

Shrop

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I think the poster is thinking 'connection' means something is held. That's largely not been the case on the railway for almost 3 decades now, but in reality never could be nor have been truly a guarantee (no-one would stop the job at New Street because the incoming Edinburgh service was two hours late). What a connection means is that the railway/airline will sort you out - accommodation, onward taxi, whatever is reasonable to fix the problem. When you're delayed on transatlantic flights, they just put you on a different service, even if it means with a different airline.

Transpennine Express do this today with ex-Manchester Airport tickets - if your plane is delayed, and you miss the rail connection, you can go on a later service - it's kind of necessary to be able to sell advanced tickets if the passenger might've come in by plane. It doesn't work the other way round though.. from https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/special-offers/manchester-airport
Thanks, but no I'm not assuming a connection will be held, that really would be expecting too much. My concern is that those who make these proposals often don't experience the realities of when they fail. I had a classic example at Eastleigh when a trespass incident caused the line to be shut for over 3 hours. This meant that the last peak period train ex-London arrived into Eastleigh just before 11pm, into a platform adjacent to a Portsmouth train. Around 40 people wanted to catch this Portsmouth train, but it waited for almost a full minute with its doors locked, and then disappeared into the night with intending passengers left stranded. Now nobody could possibly argue that it had to go without waiting for one extra minute, at this time of late evening for pathing reasons. The fact was that nobody at Eastleigh station was aware of the plight of these passengers.

Some of us found the most senior person at the station to ask what we were supposed to do, and he openly admitted to us that he'd just come on shift and was unaware of the line having been closed for such a long period. A bus eventually arrived, but it was only going as far as Fareham, as I found out when I had to give the driver directions when he got lost.

Does this all sound crazy? Yes it certainly is, but those who make these plans are all too often simply not aware of how these things can go wrong, and for the most ridiculous and unnecessary of reasons. I mean, how could someone in charge at Eastleigh simply not know that the station he was in charge of, had received no trains for such a long period just before he got there? Clearly there there was no handover, or if there was then it was seriously lacking in value. So yes, I understand the intentions of these "connections", I just despair when those who plan them, are often so unaware of what happens in practice. Yes they work, often for most of the time, but there is also too much scope for spectacular failure, and I strongly suspect that similar failures will happen with rail-flight "connections".
 

NCT

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Thanks, but no I'm not assuming a connection will be held, that really would be expecting too much. My concern is that those who make these proposals often don't experience the realities of when they fail. I had a classic example at Eastleigh when a trespass incident caused the line to be shut for over 3 hours. This meant that the last peak period train ex-London arrived into Eastleigh just before 11pm, into a platform adjacent to a Portsmouth train. Around 40 people wanted to catch this Portsmouth train, but it waited for almost a full minute with its doors locked, and then disappeared into the night with intending passengers left stranded. Now nobody could possibly argue that it had to go without waiting for one extra minute, at this time of late evening for pathing reasons. The fact was that nobody at Eastleigh station was aware of the plight of these passengers.

Some of us found the most senior person at the station to ask what we were supposed to do, and he openly admitted to us that he'd just come on shift and was unaware of the line having been closed for such a long period. A bus eventually arrived, but it was only going as far as Fareham, as I found out when I had to give the driver directions when he got lost.

Does this all sound crazy? Yes it certainly is, but those who make these plans are all too often simply not aware of how these things can go wrong, and for the most ridiculous and unnecessary of reasons. I mean, how could someone in charge at Eastleigh simply not know that the station he was in charge of, had received no trains for such a long period just before he got there? Clearly there there was no handover, or if there was then it was seriously lacking in value. So yes, I understand the intentions of these "connections", I just despair when those who plan them, are often so unaware of what happens in practice. Yes they work, often for most of the time, but there is also too much scope for spectacular failure, and I strongly suspect that similar failures will happen with rail-flight "connections".

What's different between
- Your 3 paragraphs, and
- A delayed Edinburgh - Heathrow flight making passengers on a through ticket miss their Heathrow - New York flight?
 

MatthewHutton

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The only 300km/h tilting trains I know of are the N700 Shinkansen series where it only tilts by one degree on already canted curves and only at a top speed of 270km/h, and the Avelia Liberty which will only tilt at around 6.3 degrees and only on the coaches with non-tilting power cars on each end. I think the best way to salvage the project at this point is to have 250m trains that can reach 300-330km/h on HS2 with an ability to tilt on the classic mainline. Talgo might be able to pull it off, and I believe Alstom could probably do so with a Pendolino derivative. I say 250m because it's only 15m shorter than an 11-coach Pendolino but can also carry an equivalent or even greater number of seats.
Presumably the N700S tilts on the Tokaido Shinkansen at 285km/h which is the top speed there and doesn’t tilt at 300km/h on the Sanyo Shinkansen which is the top speed on that section?

EDIT: The E5/H5 tilts to 1.5 degrees at up to 320km/h - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/E5_and_H5_Series_Shinkansen

I believe the challenge (which cannot be insurmountable) is getting the Japanese to sell us some for a reasonable price.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The only 300km/h tilting trains I know of are the N700 Shinkansen series where it only tilts by one degree on already canted curves and only at a top speed of 270km/h, and the Avelia Liberty which will only tilt at around 6.3 degrees and only on the coaches with non-tilting power cars on each end. I think the best way to salvage the project at this point is to have 250m trains that can reach 300-330km/h on HS2 with an ability to tilt on the classic mainline. Talgo might be able to pull it off, and I believe Alstom could probably do so with a Pendolino derivative. I say 250m because it's only 15m shorter than an 11-coach Pendolino but can also carry an equivalent or even greater number of seats.
If there is space at the platforms a 275m train would work.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The capacity-restraining factor will rather be the capacity of OOC and, in the far future, of the smallish Euston HS2 station.
OOC can presumably do 12tph which is one every 30 minutes given the relatively long amount of high speed running?
 
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Nottingham59

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OOC can presumably do 12tph which is one every 30 minutes given the relatively long amount of high speed running?
The problem with OOC as a terminus is the constrained track layout at the west end of the station. Only trains using the central platforms (11 & 12) can access the scissors crossover in the station box. Trains using the other four platforms need to run wrong-way along the main approach tunnels to the Victoria Road crossover box.

If you want to get 12tph out of OOC as a terminus, they will need to lay tracks into the tunnels to Euston to act as reversing sidings, so that trains arriving at platforms 13 & 14 can depart from platforms 9 & 10, without conflicting with the flows using 11 & 12.
 

MatthewHutton

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The problem with OOC as a terminus is the constrained track layout at the west end of the station. Only trains using the central platforms (11 & 12) can access the scissors crossover in the station box. Trains using the other four platforms need to run wrong-way along the main approach tunnels to the Victoria Road crossover box.

If you want to get 12tph out of OOC as a terminus, they will need to lay tracks into the tunnels to Euston to act as reversing sidings, so that trains arriving at platforms 13 & 14 can depart from platforms 9 & 10, without conflicting with the flows using 11 & 12.
Surely the points can be changed - or as you say the first part of the tunnels to Euston?

And I mean for resilience surely you want to do it anyway?
 
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Shrop

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What's different between
- Your 3 paragraphs, and
- A delayed Edinburgh - Heathrow flight making passengers on a through ticket miss their Heathrow - New York flight?
One is three paragraphs, whereas the other is one line. But well done for missing my point!
 

Trainbike46

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One is three paragraphs, whereas the other is one line. But well done for missing my point!
As everyone (including me) appears to be missing your point, any chance you could summarise what it is in one line?

I would highlight that what is proposed here has been done for years in mainland Europe.
 

Shrop

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As everyone (including me) appears to be missing your point, any chance you could summarise what it is in one line?

I would highlight that what is proposed here has been done for years in mainland Europe.
The point is that when "connections" are advertised, all too often they fail in practice.
 

Trainbike46

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The point is that when "connections" are advertised, all too often they fail in practice.
Okay, but that isn't different between Air-Air connections and Rail-Air connections, and the only way around it would be to only ever travel direct, so that isn't a disadvantage to offering Rail-Air connections as through tickets, as already done succesfully by a range of airlines including KLM, Lufthansa, and Air France.
 

Shrop

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Okay, but that isn't different between Air-Air connections and Rail-Air connections, and the only way around it would be to only ever travel direct, so that isn't a disadvantage to offering Rail-Air connections as through tickets, as already done succesfully by a range of airlines including KLM, Lufthansa, and Air France.
Don't forget too, that other countries seem to manage better than we do. At building new railways, punctuality, customer care, you name it. Quite sad really.
 

fishwomp

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Thanks, but no I'm not assuming a connection will be held, that really would be expecting too much. My concern is that those who make these proposals often don't experience the realities of when they fail. [..]

Some of us found the most senior person at the station to ask what we were supposed to do, and he openly admitted to us that he'd just come on shift and was unaware of the line having been closed for such a long period. [..]
I don't disagree - there's what _Should_ happen, and what does happen, and they're not always the same. I've had missed connections on last trains at New Street - well handled with a 60 mile onward taxi arranged, it's almost like they do it every day?

Then, I've been deposited in places like Banbury at midnight - and there is no phone number to call, but I was lucky to catch a friendly driver just walking out to her car, who rang control and arranged a taxi. Stations may be "manned" but it can look like "manned but playing hide and seek" at late hours.
 

NCT

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The point is that when "connections" are advertised, all too often they fail in practice.

The only relevant point here is equivalence.

Is a rail-air failure more likely than an air-air failure? (For an Edinburgh - Heathrow - New York journey)

In case of first leg failure, is there a difference in how (say) BA puts you onto the next available flight in the rail vs air situations?

Answers the questions you are asked not the question you want to answer.
 

Sorcerer

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Presumably the N700S tilts on the Tokaido Shinkansen at 285km/h which is the top speed there and doesn’t tilt at 300km/h on the Sanyo Shinkansen which is the top speed on that section?

EDIT: The E5/H5 tilts to 1.5 degrees at up to 320km/h - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/E5_and_H5_Series_Shinkansen

I believe the challenge (which cannot be insurmountable) is getting the Japanese to sell us some for a reasonable price.
Because of the alignment of HS2 there isn't much need to have the trains tilting on the high-speed sections of line. Just the classic WCML route. Alstom might be able to pull it off with some kind of New Pendolino unit where tilt disables above speeds of 250km/h which won't be reached on the classic routes anyway, so we don't really need to look to a Japanese manufacturer for a high-speed tilting train if we needed one at all.

If there is space at the platforms a 275m train would work.
Possibly, but you'd probably need a subfleet for routes like Liverpool where the platforms at Lime Street wouldn't be able to accommodate a 275m fleet. Either that or we'd need to extend the long-distance platforms by about 5m at the bare minimum, which isn't too unreasonable compared to 300m. Since proposing 250m trains though I realised it might not be very well future-proofed, so some modifications or subfleets will definitely be needed.
 

Krokodil

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Don't forget too, that other countries seem to manage better than we do. At building new railways, punctuality, customer care, you name it. Quite sad really.
Punctuality? Have you been to Germany recently?
 

Shrop

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The only relevant point here is equivalence.

Is a rail-air failure more likely than an air-air failure? (For an Edinburgh - Heathrow - New York journey)

In case of first leg failure, is there a difference in how (say) BA puts you onto the next available flight in the rail vs air situations?

Answers the questions you are asked not the question you want to answer.
So your primary concern is whether or not rail-air failure is more likely than air-air failure? Are you not concerned that advertising connections for travellers, and then failing to fulfil them might be an issue?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Punctuality? Have you been to Germany recently?
Yes, and all trains were punctual.
 

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