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No
Delay Repay is meant to cover the entire journey, even if multiple tickets are used.
Of course, it may be possible to get Avanti to pay out in circumstances like these, but it’s not the intention.
As was noted in a recent thread, if the trip included some time in Glasgow other than just for changing trains, for example for lunch (no longer at Rogano’s sadly) then the two trains are no longer connected in the same way, and Delay Repay can be applied to each of them separately.
Is your reasoning here that the tickets were bought as a single transaction, therefore together comprise one journey?
As a counter example, I travelled on an advance purchase ticket from Lichfield to Euston yesterday, and was delayed first by the 1749 train (due Euston 2029) being delayed by 40 minutes, and it terminating at Milton Keynes, thereby having to catch a later train that made me over an hour late into Euston at 2034.
I then had another ticket (not bought in the same transaction) that would get me to my destination later, but because of other things I wanted to do had never had any intention of leaving Victoria until after 2230.
Is it the case that I shouldn't claim delay repay for the Lichfield to Euston journey because Euston wasn't my ultimate destination?
Is your reasoning here that the tickets were bought as a single transaction, therefore together comprise one journey?
As a counter example, I travelled on an advance purchase ticket from Lichfield to Euston yesterday, and was delayed first by the 1749 train (due Euston 2029) being delayed by 40 minutes, and it terminating at Milton Keynes, thereby having to catch a later train that made me over an hour late into Euston at 2034.
I then had another ticket (not bought in the same transaction) that would get me to my destination later, but because of other things I wanted to do had never had any intention of leaving Victoria until after 2230.
Is it the case that I shouldn't claim delay repay for the Lichfield to Euston journey because Euston wasn't my ultimate destination?
It has nothing to do with a single transaction, that’s irrelevant. Although by default a single transaction will assume one journey, for sure, but you could change the default behaviour.
I think we agree violently, though; if you don’t just cross London for train connection purposes then the two legs are treated separately, as I said in post #2 above I think. And you claim Delay Repay for each leg separately. You’re making two journeys with something else in the middle.
I’m going to the Isle of Wight in a couple of weeks, but I’m going shopping in London en route, so I will separate the Avanti leg to London from the onward leg to Portsmouth and the ferry for Delay Repay purposes. If the second leg is delayed I also won’t claim for the entire trip from Wilmslow.
As the second ticket to Perth was not an advance, that presumably means the Op had the flexibility to choose what train to catch and how long a break he wanted. He is therefore surely entitled to decide if he wants it considered as one through journey, or two separate journeys with a break of his choosing in between.
I don't see this as any different to the situation where you hold one through ticket that allows break of journey, and you are delayed reaching the point at which you break journey.
As the second ticket to Perth was not an advance, that presumably means the Op had the flexibility to choose what train to catch and how long a break he wanted. He is therefore surely entitled to decide if he wants it considered as one through journey, or two separate journeys with a break of his choosing in between.
I don't see this as any different to the situation where you hold one through ticket that allows break of journey, and you are delayed reaching the point at which you break journey.
Had the OP done so, and allowed himself to be delayed to be on the next train from Perth, there wouldn't be a discussion. Instead, the actions taken by the OP demonstrated intent that the journey was a through journey, and made the connection work. As Delay Repay is about the delay to the journey, and the OP was not delayed on their journey, no Delay Repay is payable.
Whether industry systems are clever enough to detect the pattern of this journey, and would catch that a claim to Avanti for the ticket on Avanti's service was not the entire journey is unclear to me. But as a matter of conscience, that is not a journey that I would seek to claim for.
Had the OP done so, and allowed himself to be delayed to be on the next train from Perth, there wouldn't be a discussion. Instead, the actions taken by the OP demonstrated intent that the journey was a through journey, and made the connection work. As Delay Repay is about the delay to the journey, and the OP was not delayed on their journey, no Delay Repay is payable.
The OP may have intended to make a through journey when he booked his ticket, but he was entitled to change his mind about that at any time. On the day, the OP clearly broke journey, by visiting a burger restaurant. If you break the journey, then it is clearly not a through journey.
Provided that the information that the OP submits on the DR form is true, he would be doing nothing wrong by submitting a claim. The OP undeniably made a journey from Birmingham to Glasgow, and was delayed getting there, so I can see nothing wrong in the OP submitting a claim on that basis. It is up to the TOC to determine if it is a valid claim.
The OP may have intended to make a through journey when he booked his ticket, but he was entitled to change his mind about that at any time. On the day, the OP clearly broke journey, by visiting a burger restaurant. If you break the journey, then it is clearly not a through journey.
Provided that the information that the OP submits on the DR form is true, he would be doing nothing wrong by submitting a claim. The OP undeniably made a journey from Birmingham to Glasgow, and was delayed getting there, so I can see nothing wrong in the OP submitting a claim on that basis. It is up to the TOC to determine if it is a valid claim.
I would hesitate to say that a call to purchase takeaway food while transferring between stations constitutes a break of journey - and can see a number of very adverse consequences if that definition were to hold. It also, to me, misses the significance that the OP did choose to catch their original train, to me clearly implying a through journey,
There are many examples of quasi-disrupted itineraries that clearly qualify for Delay Repay, but arguably fall outside its spirit.
A simple case (happens semi-frequently for me on GWR between Gatwick Airport and Reading) is when I hold split tickets on the same direct train (in the RDG-GTW example, often split at Blackwater or Sandhurst). These trains can easily run 30+ minutes late to the first split ticketed station, but somehow recover enough time en route to get to their final destination within 15 minutes of scheduled arrival.
As I understand the policies, Delay Repay is owed for the first segment (please correct me if I'm mistaken). Is it ethical to claim it? That's another question entirely.
As I understand the policies, Delay Repay is owed for the first segment (please correct me if I'm mistaken). Is it ethical to claim it? That's another question entirely.
It isn't owed, because it is based upon the journey and not the ticket. As mentioned above you might get away with it, I don't think we've ever heard of someone being caught.
However Delay Repay is an incredibly generous scheme, and if people start to abuse it it will just be taken away for everyone, including those who use it properly.
I had a dilemma today, my Avanti from Birmingham reached Wigan NW 9 minutes late (after making up some time from a +15 departure from New Street), so instead of a leisurely 14 minutes to connect at Wallgate across the road, I had four minutes. Decided to make a dash for it, and luckily there was no traffic preventing me crossing the road so I just made it. However if I'd missed it and taken the next Southport train I would have been entitled to 25% of my £19.95 ticket price, probably a fiver all but 1p.
Not quite the same scenario I know, as mine was a through ticket not split, but it crossed my mind not to dash in order to claim the fiver, however the sensible me decided if I could get the correct connection I would, even though the rush gave me a coughing fit and pounding heart!
I had a dilemma today, my Avanti from Birmingham reached Wigan NW 9 minutes late (after making up some time from a +15 departure from New Street), so instead of a leisurely 14 minutes to connect at Wallgate across the road, I had four minutes. Decided to make a dash for it, and luckily there was no traffic preventing me crossing the road so I just made it. However if I'd missed it and taken the next Southport train I would have been entitled to 25% of my £19.95 ticket price, probably a fiver all but 1p.
Not quite the same scenario I know, as mine was a through ticket not split, but it crossed my mind not to dash in order to claim the fiver, however the sensible me decided if I could get the correct connection I would, even though the rush gave me a coughing fit and pounding heart!
In this case I’d say either option is valid. You shouldn’t have to dash, and if you didn’t and walked at a reasonable pace you’d be perfectly entitled to Delay Repay, but also you’re within your rights to prioritise your time over the money.
This was discussed in another thread here a couple of months ago, albeit a more general, "Can I claim delay repay if I'm delayed on one ticket as part of a split ticket journey but my overall journey isn't delayed", sense.
Opinions differed really on whether you should claim for a single ticket on a split ticket journey on the basis you were delayed only on some intermediate ticket destination rather than the full journey time. I suspect if you did it often enough, the TOC or retailer might look into your purchase history and take issue with it. After all, it is a bit of 'having your cake and eating it', treating split tickets as one journey when it helps delay repay to a final destination and separate journeys when not actually delayed to the final destination. On the other hand, the conditions of travel state that a journey 'may' use a combination of tickets; not that a combination of tickets always forms a single journey. Whether one would like to argue that in civil court, is perhaps another matter. It would never get to a criminal court as proving that the passenger intentionally made a false representation would be nigh on impossible.
I would hesitate to say that a call to purchase takeaway food while transferring between stations constitutes a break of journey - and can see a number of very adverse consequences if that definition were to hold.
I can likewise think of a number of consequences if you were allowed to argue that spending time in a restaurant, hotel or other establishment between trains did not constitute a break of journey.
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However Delay Repay is an incredibly generous scheme, and if people start to abuse it it will just be taken away for everyone, including those who use it properly.
I would disagree that it is an incredibly generous scheme, as there are so many ways that you can be denied compensation. The TOCs play the rules to their advantage to deny compensation to those who have been inconvenienced. I see no reason why passengers should not play the rules to their advantage, to claim compensation they are entitled to by a reasonable interpretation of the rules.
I would disagree that it is an incredibly generous scheme, as there are so many ways that you can be denied compensation. The TOCs play the rules to their advantage to deny compensation to those who have been inconvenienced. I see no reason why passengers should not play the rules to their advantage, to claim compensation they are entitled to by a reasonable interpretation of the rules.
It's incredibly generous compared to the rules in every other country, for example the length of delay needed for compensation and there being no limit to the circumstances it can be claimed in. The scenario here doesn't entitle the OP in a reasonable interpretation, it's very clear it is based on the journey and not the individual tickets, this is something that passengers constantly use in their favour in these claims, the passenger faced no delay in their journey, there is no entitlement to delay repay.
The phrase having their cake and eating it comes up a lot on here, talking about TOCs and the like, but I would say what you are claiming is doing exactly that. The customer didn't break their journey, they made a continuous journey on two tickets and were not delayed in that journey.
If you do want to make that argument surely you can see how it is then difficult to say they were entitled to delay repay on their entire journey from Birmingham if their second train was cancelled?
Exactly. Arguing that a combination of tickets must always be treated as a single journey, regardless of whatever journeys are being made and break between the journeys, would have some very undesirable consequences.
So, if a passenger holds a combination of tickets, who decides whether they are being used for separate journeys, or one through journey? Surely it can only be the passenger who decides that.
And if the ticket validities allow it, the passenger has the right to change their mind at any time - in the same way as they have the right with a through ticket to decide to break journey if ticket validity permits.
So, it is up to the OP to decide whether he was making one through journey, or two separate journeys. And he is entitled to make that decision as best suits him, not the TOC.
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It's incredibly generous compared to the rules in every other country, for example the length of delay needed for compensation and there being no limit to the circumstances it can be claimed in.
I agree that there should be no limit to the circumstances in which it can be claimed. Which is why I am arguing that the OP should claim.
However, having several times been denied compensation for hour or more delays, there are very clearly limits to the circumstances in which it will be paid, and that passengers can and are denied compensation for delays incurred.
The phrase having their cake and eating it comes up a lot on here, talking about TOCs and the like, but I would say what you are claiming is doing exactly that.
The TOCs interpret the rules to their advantage, so I see nothing wrong with interpreting the rules to my advantage. If you want to interpret that as having my cake and eating it, so be it.
If you do want to make that argument surely you can see how it is then difficult to say they were entitled to delay repay on their entire journey from Birmingham if their second train was cancelled?
If the OP decides that he is making two separate journeys, then agreed. But if the OP decides that he is making one through journey, then he would be perfectly entitled.
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