What could become of the remaining 221s?

[TheWalrus]

Good evening all,

Just wondering what is the current status of the 221 fleet? Looks like XC already have their full quota of what they were allowed to take on, GC have their two but I did hear some months ago they may get two more? Wikipedia suggests (and I know this isn’t reliable!) on the British Rail Class 221 page that there are 6 in storage?

I did also hear one was test run between Wrexham and Shrewsbury (again not sure if this happened or not) which I assumed was in preparation for potentially entering service with WSMR, but their application has since been rejected.

I also heard EMR may need replacements for 222s leaving for Lumo before the 810s enter service, so is this a potential use for the remaining sets?

Or have they all gone to XC now? That would be nice as I have to use them a lot and actually really like the ex Avanti sets! Would be interesting if anyone else has heard anything more.
Many Thanks!

 

[swt_passenger]

Good evening all,

Just wondering what is the current status of the 221 fleet? Looks like XC already have their full quota of what they were allowed to take on, GC have their two but I did hear some months ago they may get two more? Wikipedia suggests (and I know this isn’t reliable!) on the British Rail Class 221 page that there are 6 in storage?

I did also hear one was test run between Wrexham and Shrewsbury (again not sure if this happened or not) which I assumed was in preparation for potentially entering service with WSMR, but their application has since been rejected.

I also heard EMR may need replacements for 222s leaving for Lumo before the 810s enter service, so is this a potential use for the remaining sets?

Or have they all gone to XC now? That would be nice as I have to use them a lot and actually really like the ex Avanti sets! Would be interesting if anyone else has heard anything more.
Many Thanks!

They haven’t ’all gone to XC’ unless it’s been missed in all the previous discussions on this subject. Loads of people have suggested it though, despite there being no likelihood DfT would allow it.

I think we’re still firmly in the state reported in the thread here:

Avanti Class 221s to Cross Country

“The people” at XC would have liked them but they had to fight hard with the DfT to get what they have got. Nobody at XC or any other DfT contracted TOC can alter their fleet without DfT say so and you have to go through a whole process with them to get additional rolling stock. Cost is a big...

www.railforums.co.uk

(Although the last post by @Cowley can be read as meaning all 20 )

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Probably one for the speculation area.

However, I wonder if they may appear with Lumo on their Carmarthen/Hereford route, as a stop gap whilst they wait for Hitachi stock.

Even if not, I still think they'll end up with Open Access. Grand Central want to set something up to Brighton for example, and there's other proposals with no ORR decision yet, e.g. Nottingham to Oxford via Bedford.

 

[TheWalrus]

Probably one for the speculation area.

However, I wonder if they may appear with Lumo on their Carmarthen/Hereford route, as a stop gap whilst they wait for Hitachi stock.

Even if not, I still think they'll end up with Open Access. Grand Central want to set something up to Brighton for example, and there's other proposals with no ORR decision yet, e.g. Nottingham to Oxford via Bedford.

Probably this thread should be moved to Specilative Discussion to be fair.

What about EMR as a stopgap?

 

[geoffk]

Replace the 170s on Cardiff - Nottingham? But I expect this is something else that the DfT won't allow. Assuming there is a still shortage of diesel stock, they should go to an existing 221 user.

 

[liamf656]

Probably this thread should be moved to Specilative Discussion to be fair.

What about EMR as a stopgap?

That's discussed in depth here:

Stopgap options to cover for delays to introduction of Class 810 for EMR?

Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-810-for-east-midlands-railway-construction-introduction-updates.195052/page-115#post-7169043 Recent rumour control (and I emphasise RUMOUR, albeit from “inside”)… First 222s to leave in December for full refurb prior to...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[TheWalrus]

Replace the 170s on Cardiff - Nottingham? But I expect this is something else that the DfT won't allow. Assuming there is a still shortage of diesel stock, they should go to an existing 221 user.

Unless they swapped 6 220s for the remaining 6 221s with a net gain of 6 carriages (one per unit)?

 

[99009]

Good evening all,

Just wondering what is the current status of the 221 fleet?

The current status of the 221's is as follows:

221101-221106: Stored at Derby Litchurch Lane with no publicly confirmed future use.
221107-221141 + 221144: In use with XC. 221107-221118 are ex Avanti. 221136, 221140, 221141 and 221144 are 4 car.
221142+221143: In use with Grand Central.

Speculation on where 221101-221106 could end up in future includes open access, Grand Central, XC or EMR as a stopgap to 810 introduction.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Probably one for the speculation area.

However, I wonder if they may appear with Lumo on their Carmarthen/Hereford route, as a stop gap whilst they wait for Hitachi stock.

Even if not, I still think they'll end up with Open Access. Grand Central want to set something up to Brighton for example, and there's other proposals with no ORR decision yet, e.g. Nottingham to Oxford via Bedford.

No, Lumo won’t be using them. Their paths only work with 80x traction and then there is the cost of fitting ATP to the units.

They are also a pretty dire offer inside for any new OA business.

 

[BerkshireRails]

Unless they swapped 6 220s for the remaining 6 221s with a net gain of 6 carriages (one per unit)?

Why swap the units when you could have both and lengthen the Reading to Newcastle services?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why swap the units when you could have both and lengthen the Reading to Newcastle services?

Because DaFT don't want to pay?

In all seriousness the only sensible thing to do with them is send to XC. Most of the overcrowding problem would be gone if they had all the 220s and 221s.

 

[Envoy]

If Cross Country had them, then surely they could reduce their fares and attract more customers and hence free the roads of some traffic and benefit the country.

I would like to see them on the Swansea/Cardiff > Gloucester > Birmingham > Sheffield > York > Newcastle route. Perhaps people at the DFT should try and use the 170’s that currently operate on part of this route - sometimes as 2 car units! (Totally inadequate for linking these major centres of population).

 

[Babybirdrobin]

XC I feel like would be the best home for them as it keeps them together and means that we can see more 8/9/10 coach diagrams.

I don‘t however think that they should replace/supplement the turbos or be used to extend routes as it would stretch the voyagers even more than they already are and the turbo crews would potentially need training on the voyagers which would only operate a small amount of the services

 

[BerkshireRails]

Because DaFT don't want to pay?

In all seriousness the only sensible thing to do with them is send to XC. Most of the overcrowding problem would be gone if they had all the 220s and 221s.

You could also send some 222s to XC to help; you would keep the 222s to their own dedicated diagrams until modified to work in service with the 220 & 221s.

 

[liamf656]

You could also send some 222s to XC to help; you would keep the 222s to their own dedicated diagrams until modified to work in service with the 220 & 221s.

If Crosscountry were to ever get 222s I'd keep them separate as they'd be able to run in 10 car formation with SDO (which the Voyagers don't have) on the busiest services, with 8/9 car Voyagers elsewhere

 

[NCT]

Beyond any stopgap uses, I suspect eventually they'll go to Cross Country.

 

[YorksLad12]

Because DaFT don't want to pay?

In all seriousness the only sensible thing to do with them is send to XC. Most of the overcrowding problem would be gone if they had all the 220s and 221s.

Except when the rear unit is locked out of use. If they could be sent to XC and re-formed into 7-car sets (or 8-car sets with First Class at either end) everyone would be happy. Except, possibly, the Treasury and DfT...

 

[317 forever]

Some of them could go to East Midlands Railway, for Norwich - Liverpool or Newark - Crewe services.

 

[JonathanH]

Some of them could go to East Midlands Railway, for Norwich - Liverpool or Newark - Crewe services.

That sort of suggestion has been debunked many a time because of the speed restrictions applicable on secondary routes.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Apparently Newcastle to Brighton will be 221's. However surely that means XC could have the 221's instead and then you might as well let CrossCountry run the Brighton services if that's the case!

 

[dk1]

Some of them could go to East Midlands Railway, for Norwich - Liverpool or Newark - Crewe services.

Yes, they are no good for EMRs East Anglia routes as cannot run at SP speeds. This was the reason they were rejected after a trial with 222s several years ago.

 

[The Planner]

Apparently Newcastle to Brighton will be 221's. However surely that means XC could have the 221's instead and then you might as well let CrossCountry run the Brighton services if that's the case!

Any OA proposal is going to assume 221s at the moment. XC won't extend beyond Reading as its their paths the OAO wants anyway.

 

[stevieinselby]

Apparently Newcastle to Brighton will be 221's.

Newcastle to Brighton will be hauled by Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer.
It ain't happening.

 

[BerkshireRails]

Yes, they are no good for EMRs East Anglia routes as cannot run at SP speeds. This was the reason they were rejected after a trial with 222s several years ago.

Aren't the East Anglia routes being converted to MU speeds?

 

[dk1]

Aren't the East Anglia routes being converted to MU speeds?

Not as far as I know and you certainly can’t do much about the soil in the Ely-Lakenheath area.

 

[Cowley]

(Although the last post by @Cowley can be read as meaning all 20 )

Blimey, you could have told me!

I’ve altered the post now.

 

[Trainbike46]

Aren't the East Anglia routes being converted to MU speeds?

Why would they do that?

And more importantly, how would they do that, given the reason for the lower non-sp limits is unstable soil?

 

[BerkshireRails]

Why would they do that?

And more importantly, how would they do that, given the reason for the lower non-sp limits is unstable soil?

To enable a greater number of trains to be able to make use of enhanced speeds. The MU limit only applies to traction with an Route Avaliablity of 4 or less.

 

[Trainbike46]

To enable a greater number of trains to be able to make use of enhanced speeds. The MU limit only applies to traction with an Route Avaliablity of 4 or less.

Well, the current trains (158s, 170s, 755s) can all use SP limits, so what are these extra trains that would benefit?

As @dk1, who is very knowledgeable in the area, pointed out, there aren't any plans and the soil is really very bad.

 

[BerkshireRails]

Well, the current trains (158s, 170s, 755s) can all use SP limits, so what are these extra trains that would benefit?

As @dk1, who is very knowledgeable in the area, pointed out, there aren't any plans and the soil is really very bad.

If the soil is so poor then why is Attleborough an MU rather than SP limit?