Closure of Bransty Tunnel (near Whitehaven) expected until further notice

[yorksrob]

Then you are feeding the block from the south end only which will add cost.

Weren't we promised a more passenger focused railway ? Perhaps the (surely marginal) additional cost of sending a few engineers trains is worth it to cut down on excessively lengthy rail replacement bus journeys.

 

[ScottGallagher]

I understand ticket restrictions are lifted to get to Carlisle by TPE and Avanti. Wouldn't a bus to Oxenholme perhaps from Barrow be considered?

 

[Tetchytyke]

I would imagine Northern have asked the same questions

Wouldn’t NR be paying for the replacement buses?

If so, I can well imagine that Northern aren’t exactly upset at the current arrangements, which also happen to be operationally more convenient for them.

Yes, I’m cynical when it comes to these things.

 

[The Planner]

If you closed the car park then it would be easy peasy, you could even just take out of use all but the disabled spaces and still be able to get a coach in.
That said it sounds as if not running to Whitehaven is about a lot more than just coach access.
What I do think is that Northern should be explaining to people why they can't terminate at Whitehaven and Corkickle, otherwise the general populace will think it is because they can't be bothered, or for the more shoulder balanced chip brigade that it just another Workington v Whitehaven thing.

Northern will just tell people what they have agreed with NR.

Could the possession limits at Whitehaven not be clear of the points into the bay, with those points clipped and scotched as previously mentioned?

If its deemed that is too close to the worksite then it won't happen. Clearly Northern were content with the proposal, and they are one of the TOCs that quite happily go to the point of obstruction compared to others.

Weren't we promised a more passenger focused railway ? Perhaps the (surely marginal) additional cost of sending a few engineers trains is worth it to cut down on excessively lengthy rail replacement bus journeys.

The railway is skint, check out the redundancy thread elsewhere, that is around the third cull in the last six or seven years.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jul 2025 ==

Wouldn’t NR be paying for the replacement buses?

If so, I can well imagine that Northern aren’t exactly upset at the current arrangements, which also happen to be operationally more convenient for them.

Yes, I’m cynical when it comes to these things.

Yes, but its more symbolic due to the way compensation works.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Then you are feeding the block from the south end only which will add cost. As noted above, getting a coach in the station car park doesnt look that easy.

But you're giving one of the biggest traffic centres there a service. Were you to close the middle bit permanently (which could happen I guess depending how bad things are) you'd certainly take the top bit to Whitehaven.

The RRB could run from the nearest bus stop.

 

[AndrewE]

Looking at maps available through the mining remediation authority it appears there are several coal seams intersecting the tunnel beneath ground - there was extensive working in the area, I'd assume it's a collapsed historic mine. If so, 3 months is a very optimistic turnaround.

View attachment 185195

I am wondering whether they will go for grouting the mines under the tunnel invert before digging out the track, sorting the drainage (with effluent treatment of the ochre) and relaying ballasted track, or whether they might try slab track to reinforce the invert and hope that what is underneath will stay there and isn't the railway's problem?

The problem with this is that I believe that UK "law" is that the owner of a culvert is responsible for what comes out of it, even if it's a sealed / water-tight tube and they haven't contributed at all.

 

[The Planner]

But you're giving one of the biggest traffic centres there a service. Were you to close the middle bit permanently (which could happen I guess depending how bad things are) you'd certainly take the top bit to Whitehaven.

The RRB could run from the nearest bus stop.

I can see why they have done it, but clearly someone is going to need a FOI to get the minutiae.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I understand ticket restrictions are lifted to get to Carlisle by TPE and Avanti. Wouldn't a bus to Oxenholme perhaps from Barrow be considered?

Why would you do a bus from Oxenholme to Barrow? That doesn't help at all, Northern already run services between those two, you just have to go via Lancaster.

 

[ScottGallagher]

Because Avanti and TPE are accepting tickets, nobody would want to get a train to Lancaster and back up to Carlisle.

Why would you do a bus from Oxenholme to Barrow? That doesn't help at all, Northern already run services between those two, you just have to go via Lancaster.

 

[geoffk]

Clearly if Network Rail staff employed "at the sharp end" are being cut back that can only be bad news for the resilience of the railway, see elsewhere under Crewkerne, Dawlish etc. so we can expect more of the same in the coming years. An issue not confined to Britain of course.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Because Avanti and TPE are accepting tickets, nobody would want to get a train to Lancaster and back up to Carlisle.

Barrow-Oxenholme by train is about an hour and a half, by car is about an hour (a rail replacement would obviously be longer), and any train you'd connect to at Oxenholme going to Carlisle would have stopped at Lancaster first

 

[themiller]

I am wondering whether they will go for grouting the mines under the tunnel invert before digging out the track, sorting the drainage (with effluent treatment of the ochre) and relaying ballasted track, or whether they might try slab track to reinforce the invert and hope that what is underneath will stay there and isn't the railway's problem?

The problem with this is that I believe that UK "law" is that the owner of a culvert is responsible for what comes out of it, even if it's a sealed / water-tight tube and they haven't contributed at all.

It’s a shame that they can’t use a recently unemployed TBM to open out the tunnel and seal it from the groundwater at the same time!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

It’s a shame that they can’t use a recently unemployed TBM to open out the tunnel and seal it from the groundwater at the same time!

I am sure they could but all the planning and everything else needed would make this eye wateringly expensive.

I am of the opinion that everything is possible with enough time, money and political will.

 

[Millisle]

Then you are feeding the block from the south end only which will add cost. As noted above, getting a coach in the station car park doesnt look that easy.

How about trap points suitably positioned?

 

[MadMac]

How about trap points suitably positioned?

Would need to be a sand drag for passenger services.

 

[yorksrob]

The railway is skint, check out the redundancy thread elsewhere, that is around the third cull in the last six or seven years.

Network Rail promised us a passenger oriented railway. A miniscule cost (proportionally to the rest of the works) of sending engineers trains a longer route to keep bus replacements shorter would be the very epitome of this philosophy.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Aug 2025 ==

Would need to be a sand drag for passenger services.

At Whitehaven you'd just fix everything towards the bay platform, surely.

 

[The Planner]

Network Rail promised us a passenger oriented railway. A miniscule cost (proportionally to the rest of the works) of sending engineers trains a longer route to keep bus replacements shorter would be the very epitome of this philosophy.

Google minimum viable product.

 

[Straus]

I am wondering whether they will go for grouting the mines under the tunnel invert before digging out the track, sorting the drainage (with effluent treatment of the ochre) and relaying ballasted track, or whether they might try slab track to reinforce the invert and hope that what is underneath will stay there and isn't the railway's problem?

The problem with this is that I believe that UK "law" is that the owner of a culvert is responsible for what comes out of it, even if it's a sealed / water-tight tube and they haven't contributed at all.

Grouting is pretty much an inevitability at this point, slabtrack needs something to support it and it sounds like these voids are extensive.

I'd imagine the programme of works will be;

- Additional surveys to understand the extent of the voiding. (8-12 weeks)

- Design works to grout up the voids (this will be difficult as it sounds like there is a tidal element and pumping grout into the sea won't be well received - additionally the voids have potentially allowed track drainage, once grouted flooding in the tunnel may be greater. The tunnel will restrict the size of plant that could be used which will make working more difficult, expensive and longer duration) (30-50 weeks)

- Track / Drainage works (3 weeks)

Whether the ochre problem is sorted at the same time is likely being discussed at a high level - as alluded to above there is no money at the moment (or for the forseeable) meaning this will be paid for at the expense of other projects already programmed in.

I'd assume the tunnel will be closed for 12 months.

 

[InOban]

Is it possible that flooding from old mine workings may be the responsibility of whatever residual authority holds the liabilities of the Coal Board? Afew years ago there was an issue in Ayrshire with old workings, no longer being pumped out, filling up and releasing the same sort of pollution into the rivers.

 

[yorksrob]

Google minimum viable product.

I have and its not relevant.

 

[The Planner]

I have and its not relevant.

Of course it is, every project goes through MVP now. Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean its wrong.

 

[AndrewE]

Of course it is, every project goes through MVP now. Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean its wrong.

I'm not sure that it is in this instance. We want a working railway back as quickly as possible and at the lowest possible price, but I can't think of any railway jobs where they deliberately get something working quickly with the intention of modifying it in the light of experience or feedback. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_viable_product) There may be emergency temporary repairs which are rebuilt properly when they have been designed and programmed in, but even the new-ish Borders line to Galashiels looks to be baked-in single-track sections and unelectrified.

Perhaps E-W railway is an example, get it running and [perhaps] we'll electrify it one day if we haven't got more urgent places to spend money...

 

[themiller]

Is it possible that flooding from old mine workings may be the responsibility of whatever residual authority holds the liabilities of the Coal Board? Afew years ago there was an issue in Ayrshire with old workings, no longer being pumped out, filling up and releasing the same sort of pollution into the rivers.

I remember that a workmate some years ago told me of when he used to go on safety inspections from Haig pit through into William pit and at least one more. They were interconnected and used for ventilation in Haig which extended out under the Solway Firth for several miles. I got the impression that they were dry pits so, looking at the outfall rate from the Whitehaven Tunnel, I doubt that these old workings would have filled up to above track level in the intervening years.

 

[OhNoAPacer]

As this is increasingly looking like a long lasting line closure then Northern and NR have to find a way of getting Whitehaven back in use.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As this is increasingly looking like a long lasting line closure then Northern and NR have to find a way of getting Whitehaven back in use.

Reply here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/might-the-whitehaven-tunnel-issues-result-in-closure.290244/

 

[mcmad]

Where is the access point for the works in the tunnel? Google isn't the clearest but I can't see a way of accessing into the tunnel from the North end without shutting the station, Nearest access at the south end looks to be south of Corkickle Station.

 

[yorksrob]

Of course it is, every project goes through MVP now. Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean its wrong.

The definition of MVP on t'interweb is about having a minimum build of something with enough features for people to feed back on pre production. Not sure what that's got to do with a railway blockade.

 

[The Planner]

The definition of MVP on t'interweb is about having a minimum build of something with enough features for people to feed back on pre production. Not sure what that's got to do with a railway blockade.

It means doing the minimum to get it back going at the minimum cost in railway terms. Which this forum seems very quick to advocate in most cases.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It means doing the minimum to get it back going at the minimum cost in railway terms. Which this forum seems very quick to advocate in most cases.

It's probably all you're going to manage in the case of basket-case rural lines like this one.

 

[DarloRich]

The definition of MVP on t'interweb is about having a minimum build of something with enough features for people to feed back on pre production. Not sure what that's got to do with a railway blockade.

that is an IT centric definition. What is meant here is: what is the minimal amount of work and therefore money required to safely fix the problem and open the line.

You are going to see a lot more of this as funding challenges increase over the life of this parliament