ORR Approves More Open Access Services on the ECML

[och aye]

Yes of course Queen St as confirmed on First's web site. (ORR mentioned Central).

Award of open access rail extensions

Thanks for sharing the press release. It's a bit odd that the ORR website states Central. As the rail regulator that is quite a thing to get wrong, unless of course the ORR are correct and FirstGroup have got it wrong and will be in for a surprise when the management and press onboard the inaugural service are standing around Queen Street staring at the departure board wondering where the train is, while it's sitting at Central.

Weirdly the Lumo website has Glasgow Central as one of the stations it serves:

https://www.lumo.co.uk/where-we-go/station-information

Am I right in saying that this will be the first time an open operator will be serving Queen Street and also that Lumo the first non-ScotRail operator to serve the station since privatisation?

 

[A S Leib]

also that Lumo the first non-ScotRail operator to serve the station since privatisation

Counting the Fort William portion of the Highlander at Queen Street Low Level separately from ScotRail?

 

[och aye]

Counting the Fort William portion of the Highlander at Queen Street Low Level separately from ScotRail?

Yes, that is correct. Caledonian Sleeper was of course originally part of ScotRail before it was separated as a stand-alone franchise. Although ScotRail and CS are now both owned by Scottish Rail Holdings, they are legally separate rail operators.

 

[drb61]

Prior to the ECML and Carstairs electrification HSTs to Kings Cross did run from Queen Street in BR days! It will be a shame in a way if Lumo services don't serve Motherwell and Glasgow Central, given how poor the existing connections between Edinburgh and Glasgow Central are, particularly since XC withdrew most of their Glasgow services and how protracted the journey times are on the existing ScotRail services via Shotts and Carstairs.

 

[Scanderina]

W

Thanks for sharing the press release. It's a bit odd that the ORR website states Central. As the rail regulator that is quite a thing to get wrong, unless of course the ORR are correct and FirstGroup have got it wrong and will be in for a surprise when the management and press onboard the inaugural service are standing around Queen Street staring at the departure board wondering where the train is, while it's sitting at Central.

Weirdly the Lumo website has Glasgow Central as one of the stations it serves:

https://www.lumo.co.uk/where-we-go/station-information

View attachment 185229

Am I right in saying that this will be the first time an open operator will be serving Queen Street and also that Lumo the first non-ScotRail operator to serve the station since privatisation?

Where does ORR state Glasgow Central?

 

[route101]

Prior to the ECML and Carstairs electrification HSTs to Kings Cross did run from Queen Street in BR days! It will be a shame in a way if Lumo services don't serve Motherwell and Glasgow Central, given how poor the existing connections between Edinburgh and Glasgow Central are, particularly since XC withdrew most of their Glasgow services and how protracted the journey times are on the existing ScotRail services via Shotts and Carstairs.

I always thought TPE would extend through from Edinburgh to Glasgow Central at some point. Is Polmadie a drivers depot for the TPE 802?

 

[BlueLeanie]

Am I right in saying that this will be the first time an open operator will be serving Queen Street and also that Lumo the first non-ScotRail operator to serve the station since privatisation?

I've lost track of the time-lines, but didn't some SPT services run from Queen Street post-privatisation?

(Appreciate they would have been operated by ScotRail on behalf of SPT).

 

[godfreycomplex]

I always thought TPE would extend through from Edinburgh to Glasgow Central at some point. Is Polmadie a drivers depot for the TPE 802?

Aye (although booking on point for TPE is at Central)

 

[Tayway]

I've lost track of the time-lines, but didn't some SPT services run from Queen Street post-privatisation?

(Appreciate they would have been operated by ScotRail on behalf of SPT).

There were some 170s painted in SPT colours since they sponsored the Queen St-Croy section of the Stirling/Dunblane (and later Alloa) service, but by that point any distinction was largely theoretical and they weren't confined to those routes

 

[YorkRailFan]

Regarding GC's application, the ORR doesn't mention the additional early morning York-London service GC mentioned in their press release about extending their track access agreement. What has happened to this?

The move builds on Grand Central's previous application to the regulator earlier this year to deliver additional services and new stops across Yorkshire and the North East. This would include new services to Seaham, which would be the town’s first and only direct connection to London, and additional services from York to London.

Grand Central Submits Track Access Rights Application | Grand Central Rail

www.grandcentralrail.com

(My bolding)

 

[ainsworth74]

Regarding GC's application, the ORR doesn't mention the additional early morning York-London service GC mentioned in their press release about extending their track access agreement. What has happened to this?

Grand Central Submits Track Access Rights Application | Grand Central Rail

www.grandcentralrail.com

(My bolding)

They were not approved by the ORR so will not be happening.

 

[YorkRailFan]

They were not approved by the ORR so will not be happening.

Ah thank you, surprised it wasn't mentioned.

 

[ainsworth74]

Ah thank you, surprised it wasn't mentioned.

They don't go through it line by line but after paragraph 84 where they summarise what is approved they say:

85.We have not approved additional elements of the above applications which cannot be accommodated in the ECML December 2025 timetable, on the basis of insufficient capacity and potential performance impacts.

Hence rejected!

 

[YorkRailFan]

They don't go through it line by line but after paragraph 84 where they summarise what is approved they say:



Hence rejected!

Thanks!

 

[notadriver]

I always thought TPE would extend through from Edinburgh to Glasgow Central at some point. Is Polmadie a drivers depot for the TPE 802?

Isn’t a bit of a kick on the teeth for TPE not getting that extension from Edinburgh to Glasgow - even more so than an open access operator will now be running it ?

 

[800001]

Isn’t a bit of a kick on the teeth for TPE not getting that extension from Edinburgh to Glasgow - even more so than an open access operator will now be running it ?

If the dft wanted TPE to go Edinburgh to Glasgow there was nothing stopping them doing so, by applying in the normal way.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Where does ORR state Glasgow Central?

I think the text has been corrected on the ORR web site since the announcement.
Glasgow Central was mentioned at least once in the original letter, but all references are now to Queen St.

 

[milooo]

I think the text has been corrected on the ORR web site since the announcement.
Glasgow Central was mentioned at least once in the original letter, but all references are now to Queen St.

Lumo have also appeared to fix their website

 

[tornado]

Taking the southbound 6.18pm-11.59pm, Avanti also have a 6.40pm-11.40pm train. Having taken this several times it is not very busy, has good punctuality.

On a Friday night it costs £45 in advance, rising to £75 very close to the date.

So to entice punters onto a train that takes 40 mins longer, Lumo need to offer tickets at £30-£60. Bearing in mind that the type of people who are prepared to arrive into London at midnight are bargain hunters, students, and the less affluent. Is this realistic for Lumo? Their current model works well because a lot of people going back/forward from Edinburgh are affluent/tourists/etc.. None of that exists for Glasgow.

 

[A S Leib]

So to entice punters onto a train that takes 40 mins longer, Lumo need to offer tickets at £30-£60. Bearing in mind that the type of people who are prepared to arrive into London at midnight are bargain hunters, students, and the less affluent. Is this realistic for Lumo? Their current model works well because a lot of people going back/forward from Edinburgh are affluent/tourists/etc.. None of that exists for Glasgow.

I'd say it does exist for Glasgow, but at a smaller scale (much smaller scale, maybe; I'd be surprised if standard premium would stay on Glasgow services if Avanti thought there was the demand for 3-6 carriages of First passengers per hour). I don't think an ~18:30 departure should be objectionable – with most attractions closing at 17:00, it gives time to have supper and get back to the station without rushing – but I agree about an arrival time of midnight being off-putting, especially if then needing private transport to get home from the station that late.

 

[tornado]

How many people are actually using standard premium on the 6.40pm Avanti though? My point was that last service of the day travellers are not high spenders.

Lumo can't compete with Avanti on speed or comfort, so as far as I can make out the only way they could make this work for Glasgow-London is very low prices. Perhaps they're anticipating Glasgow-Newcastle as their main market.

btw. late night connections in London are not a problem with the night tube and Thameslink running until 1am or later.

 

[800001]

How many people are actually using standard premium on the 6.40pm Avanti though? My point was that last service of the day travellers are not high spenders.

Lumo can't compete with Avanti on speed or comfort, so as far as I can make out the only way they could make this work for Glasgow-London is very low prices. Perhaps they're anticipating Glasgow-Newcastle as their main market.

btw. late night connections in London are not a problem with the night tube and Thameslink running until 1am or later.

Night tube is only Friday and Saturday night is it not?

 

[danielhogg2005]

Night tube is only Friday and Saturday night is it not?

Yes it is, but London does have a very large night bus network for onward connections from King's Cross.

 

[och aye]

Being reported in The Herald.

Lumo to introduce London to Glasgow Queen Street service​

Lumo to introduce London to Glasgow Queen Street service

Budget rail operator Lumo is to extend some of its London-Edinburgh trains to and from Glasgow.

www.heraldscotland.com

Budget rail operator Lumo is to extend some of its London-Edinburgh trains to and from Glasgow.

The Office of Rail and Road (ORR) has approved some additional services from December 2025 for the operator, which launched in 2021 with its first service between London King's Cross and Edinburgh Waverley.

The extension of the existing London King’s Cross-Edinburgh services means that Lumo can provide two northbound services and one southbound service between London King’s Cross and Glasgow Queen Street on weekdays and one in each direction on Sundays.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Lumo can't compete with Avanti on speed or comfort, so as far as I can make out the only way they could make this work for Glasgow-London is very low prices. Perhaps they're anticipating Glasgow-Newcastle as their main market.

Very probably a case of overlapping markets, 18.30ish from Glasgow gets into Newcastle about 9pm and would be attractive to people in the north east. You then have Edinburgh and Newcastle to London at a cheaper price for people prepared to arrive late.

As for onward connections from Kings Cross, midnight isn't a problem even midweek. The last tubes from Kings Cross are between 00.20 and 00.40, and if there are delays there's always the nightbus network. The only day it would be an issue is a Sunday, when the tubes wind down about half an hour earlier.

 

[tornado]

Lumo have now started selling this route. £33 Glasgow London - 5 hr 52 mins for the evening service. Whereas the 5 hr Avanti train around the same time is £36 in advance.

But as pointed out it's the £10 Glasgow Newcastle that people might go for.

 

[Olivine]

Lumo have now started selling this route. £33 Glasgow London - 5 hr 52 mins for the evening service. Whereas the 5 hr Avanti train around the same time is £36 in advance.

But as pointed out it's the £10 Glasgow Newcastle that people might go for.

On the latter point, is this directly linked to the volume of sales onwards Newcastle to London? I assume it it and is a very sensible and almost too easy of an option when it’s bookings only.