Southern suburban services slower than 50 years ago.

[Peter stanley]

Comparing the working timetables from 1975 with today, South London suburban services are about 20-25% slower.
For example, comparing journey times in minutes in 1975 and today in brackets:-
Victoria - Crystal Palace via Streatham hill 21.5 (29.5)
Balham - West Croydon via Selhurst 14 (17)
London Bridge - Crystal Palace via Tulse hill 23 (31.5), via Forest hill 19 (22).

This seems to be due mainly to increased dwell time at stations. The old 4SUB "slam-door" units were quicker for alighting/ boarding compared to modern stock and had guard despatch.

In contrast, the mainlines are generally faster. Direct comparisons are difficult because stopping patterns have changed a lot, but East Croydon - Gatwick non-stop took 19 minutes in 1975 but averages 15 minutes today.
I'd be interested to hear view/comments on this.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

How long is Victoria-Brighton now? I remember in slam door/Connex days, this could be done in under 50min with one stop at East Croydon. Obviously this was pre-Thameslink

 

[MotCO]

Were the lines less heavily used in 1975 than today? If so, it may be that there is more congestion today leading to slower journey times.

 

[Peter stanley]

Were the lines less heavily used in 1975 than today? If so, it may be that there is more congestion today leading to slower journey times.

I don't have figures but I remember off-peak services seemed a lot quieter and this was with mostly 4-car formation whereas today it's mostly 6 or 8 car trains. Peaks services however were fairly crowded, similar to today.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jul 2025 ==

How long is Victoria-Brighton now? I remember in slam door/Connex days, this could be done in under 50min with one stop at East Croydon. Obviously this was pre-Thameslink

Fastest today is a Gatwick express which takes 58 minutes calling only Gatwick and Haywards heath. Difficult to compare due to different stopping patterns.

 

[JonathanH]

Station dwells are longer now because passengers all funnel through two large openings rather than multiple ones, and there is a longer cycle to their operation. People often opened doors before the trains stopped in the past.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

This seems to be due mainly to increased dwell time at stations. The old 4SUB "slam-door" units were quicker for alighting/ boarding compared to modern stock and had guard despatch.

That's exactly it... in slam door days, suburban services were timetabled with a 20 second dwell time. It takes almost that long just to get the doors open sometimes these days...

 

[MotCO]

I don't have figures but I remember off-peak services seemed a lot quieter and this was with mostly 4-car formation whereas today it's mostly 6 or 8 car trains. Peaks services however were fairly crowded, similar to today.

Apols for the confusion - I was actually thinking of trains per hour, rather than passengers per train. The more trains on the line, the more scope for delays etc.

 

[Craig1122]

It's similar on the South Western side but part of the reason there is that most stations have gained more services at the expense of longer end to end times. Not sure if that has happened on the Southern side as well?

 

[sh24]

At least these services don't have the "ceremony of the doors" a la Northern. If they did each stop would take 2 mins!

 

[frankmoh]

As I child (10 years ago or so), I seem to remember a trip to London from the Hayes Line being exactly 30 minutes instead of the 35 it is now. Both times it included Lewisham as a stop.

 

[Deepgreen]

Many factors have changed in 50 years - dwell times are longer vs. slam-doors, there is now much more allowance time built in to timetables (largely for TOCs' commercial reasons), signalling now restricts 'speeding' to regain time, signalling has more safety features resulting in slower/more cautious running at junctions, etc., there is terminal platform speed limiting, platform dispatch was rare, and so on.

Safety has a price, leaving aside the commercial risk-aversion element introduced by privatisation.

 

[Peter stanley]

Apols for the confusion - I was actually thinking of trains per hour, rather than passengers per train. The more trains on the line, the more scope for delays etc.

Off-peak local services are broadly similar. Eg. 4 tph Victoria - Crystal Palace via Streatham hill, except for the New Cross Gate - Sydenham section which has an additional 8tph London overground services.
It's the main Brighton line that has shown a significant increase in off peak services - 16tph today compared with 10 in 1975 mainly due to large increase in passengers to/from Gatwick Airport.

 

[zoneking]

At Purley, it takes 30 seconds to a minute for the doors to open on Platform 3.

 

[Peter stanley]

Station dwells are longer now because passengers all funnel through two large openings rather than multiple ones, and there is a longer cycle to their operation. People often opened doors before the trains stopped in the past.

Yes I remember violating health and safety myself and opening doors early if in a rush.

 

[Taunton]

That's exactly it... in slam door days, suburban services were timetabled with a 20 second dwell time. It takes almost that long just to get the doors open sometimes these days...

All these points ignore London Underground dwell times, power doors of course, many of which can still be 20-30 seconds, with more significant passenger flows. It's also the same regulatory environment.

Any more excuses?

 

[PGAT]

All these points ignore London Underground dwell times, power doors of course, many of which can still be 20-30 seconds, with more significant passenger flows. It's also the same regulatory environment.

Any more excuses?

The underground also has trains that are more or less automatic. They are nothing like modern mainline rolling stock

 

[Peter stanley]

It's similar on the South Western side but part of the reason there is that most stations have gained more services at the expense of longer end to end times. Not sure if that has happened on the Southern side as well?

Yes, similar on southern for coastal services. Trains to Eastbourne or to Littlehampton (via Hove) called only East Croydon and Haywards heath and then Lewes or Hove. Now they all call at Clapham junction, Gatwick and often at Wivelsfield, Burgess hill, Hassocks etc. so these intermediate stations get a much better service at the expense of the end to end timings.

 

[Recessio]

All these points ignore London Underground dwell times, power doors of course, many of which can still be 20-30 seconds, with more significant passenger flows. It's also the same regulatory environment.

Any more excuses?

This is one thing that TfL also do well on Overground and Elizabeth line services: having fast doors, enough doors, and sensible interior layouts that don't impede passenger flow. TfL argue they could introduce this (amongst other service speed ups and improvements) if they ran all metro services within London , in their Strategic Case for Metroisation.

To be fair, Thameslink also do this well with the Class 700s. They have an ability to just hoover up passengers on crowded platforms better than Southern, Southeastern or SWR.

 

[Peter stanley]

This is one thing that TfL also do well on Overground and Elizabeth line services: having fast doors, enough doors, and sensible interior layouts that don't impede passenger flow. TfL argue they could introduce this (amongst other service speed ups and improvements) if they ran all metro services within London , in their Strategic Case for Metroisation.

To be fair, Thameslink also do this well with the Class 700s. They have an ability to just hoover up passengers on crowded platforms better than Southern, Southeastern or SWR.

Yes so maybe they should start by extending London overground from Crystal Palace to Clapham junction via Balham, to speed up that section of railway and giving better connections into east and west London from the south.

 

[Taunton]

Now they all call at Clapham junction,

Stops at Clapham Junction on longer distance trains are nowadays fully for passenger demand. I do notice, whether travelling from either Victoria or Waterloo, that commonly far more board at Clapham Junction than at the start point.

 

[Thebaz]

At Purley, it takes 30 seconds to a minute for the doors to open on Platform 3.

This is mainly a problem with Electrostar stock - doesn't seem to happen on the 700s

 

[Kite159]

Stops at Clapham Junction on longer distance trains are nowadays fully for passenger demand. I do notice, whether travelling from either Victoria or Waterloo, that commonly far more board at Clapham Junction than at the start point.

And occasionally they even have tickets .

----

I presume the delay at Purley is related to the software used for the ASDO needing to be overwritten. I seem to recall similar at St Pancras low level where there was no GPS so the train would default to the shortest platform on the network

 

[frankmoh]

Yes I remember violating health and safety myself and opening doors early if in a rush.

I recall watching a video from the early 90s about how NSE would fit slamdoor stock with special locks that would keep the door shut whilst it was moving. I then watched a video from 2005 ("something about last of the slamdoor trains") and people were still opening doors before the train stopped!

The longer dwell times may just be because most trains only have 2 doors per carriage now (that open slowly) instead of something like 10 (as seen on the middle cars of an EPB or VEP)

 

[U-Bahnfreund]

there is now much more allowance time built in to timetables (largely for TOCs' commercial reasons)

What do you mean by commercial reasons?

 

[devon_belle]

What do you mean by commercial reasons?

Building resilience into the timetable to avoid having to pay out for delays.

 

[Wychwood93]

Back in the day the sectional running times on the DC Southern network used to have a built-in 5% allowance. Which broadly assisted with the odd speed restriction etc. I have assorted copies of South Western Division stuff up in the loft - must look them out sometime and compare. I can think of a couple of suspects on here who would be aware whether the 5% is still there.

 

[williamn]

I think the same is true across much of the South East. I’m pretty sure the Hastings - Charing Cross line is slower than it was.

 

[Bald Rick]

All these points ignore London Underground dwell times, power doors of course, many of which can still be 20-30 seconds, with more significant passenger flows. It's also the same regulatory environment.

Any more excuses?

Twice as many doors on a typical LU coach, that is 20% shorter and with around 30% fewer passengers at crush loading?

Back in the day the sectional running times on the DC Southern network used to have a built-in 5% allowance. Which broadly assisted with the odd speed restriction etc. I have assorted copies of South Western Division stuff up in the loft - must look them out sometime and compare. I can think of a couple of suspects on here who would be aware whether the 5% is still there.

Essentially it still is.

 

[Taunton]

Twice as many doors on a typical LU coach, that is 20% shorter and with around 30% fewer passengers at crush loading?

Yes, but how often are main line services crush loaded, apart from at their London termini when dwell time doesn't matter, and at how many places do they have a substantial crush load interchange on and off, like the Jubilee Line at Waterloo?

 

[Craig1122]

Yes, but how often are main line services crush loaded, apart from at their London termini when dwell time doesn't matter, and at how many places do they have a substantial crush load interchange on and off, like the Jubilee Line at Waterloo?

South Western suburban services were frequently crush loaded, at least pre covid when the timetable was written, from 30+ minutes out. For example Richmond went from 30 second to 2 minute dwells at the last rewrite partly for recovery time but also because the 30 seconds was completely unrealistic in the peak, people hadn't even all got off at 30 seconds.