Adverts mixed into departure boards?

[styles]

We hear enough about too many announcements diluting important information.

On a slightly different theme though, is adverts being mixed in with important travel information in visual form.

Amongst the disruption at Leeds on Saturday, was this:

(caption for image below - departure boards at Leeds railway station showing a large number of delays and cancellations. Below LNER services is a message which takes up two lines reading, "Reserve seats up to 5 minutes before departure at LNER.co.uk")


Is it really necessary to use the departure boards to remind customers they can reserve seats on LNER.co.uk shortly before departure? I feel as though it's a little sly actually, as they're not advertising to sell tickets, but to direct customers to their website for seat reservations, their website however being ticket selling platform. It feels like advertising, under the guise of helping passengers?

I can accept the message below the 1654 to Hull regarding a suggested alternative for busy services (though note that the 1716 service to York was cancelled and removed from the departure board, so this service message doesn't make any sense).

As an aside, LNER may be state-run now, so payments from LNER to Network Rail for 'advertising' is wooden dollars to some extent, if another operator did this would they have to pay for advertising space?

 

[zwk500]

It's the kind of message where I don't really mind it when everything's running well, but it just has the wrong tone when you've got a right-hand column without any times.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not an advert. It's pointing out that you can do last minute reservations on LNER if you have a flexible ticket, which is a useful feature and not usual on the railway.

 

[styles]

It's not an advert. It's pointing out that you can do last minute reservations on LNER if you have a flexible ticket, which is a useful feature and not usual on the railway.

It's an advert dressed up as a service message in my opinion.

Even if we accept that it is a service message, if CrossCountry and Transpennine Express did this (as you can make seat reservations in online accounts on TPE website up to 15 minutes before departure for example), around half of the departure board would be taken up with this repetitive message. It would be two-thirds of the board were it not for Northern services not offering reservations.

 

[Djgr]

Many on this forum see nothing wrong in Avanti using station audio announcements to flog their "delicious" food.

 

[styles]

Many on this forum see nothing wrong in Avanti using station audio announcements to flog their "delicious" food.

Much as I'd ditch those announcements as they also dilute important messaging, you're at least on an Avanti train at that point. Certainly wouldn't approve of such announcements at stations.

 

[Djgr]

Much as I'd ditch those announcements as they also dilute important messaging, you're at least on an Avanti train at that point. Certainly wouldn't approve of such announcements at stations.

Unfortunately these are at stations. My view is that these announcements break impartiality rules (and if they don't they should)

 

[357]

I don't think it's advertising when it solves (to a large extent) the issue of people aimlessly walking through the train with all their luggage looking for an unreserved seat.

The issue here is that the train has been cancelled and the message is still showing. This is more down to the ancient software that our industry uses for so many purposes such as rostering and scheduling.

 

[43066]

Unfortunately these are at stations. My view is that these announcements break impartiality rules (and if they don't they should)

Specifically which rules are being broken, in your view?

 

[43096]

Unfortunately these are at stations. My view is that these announcements break impartiality rules (and if they don't they should)

I’m surprised any station catering outlets haven’t complained.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

The reality is that on a huge number of LNER services, a reservation is strongly recommended, perhaps even necessary, if you want a seat. LNER, to their credit, has made that quite easy and accessible right up to departure. Who else would you like them to suggest for this service?!

It can also affect punctuality of services, people walking up and down the platform with luggage etc trying to find a spare seat in each carriage, especially if there's a few together. Whereas having a reservation in a specific coach, you're ready and waiting in the correct platform zone.

 

[Djgr]

The reality is that on a huge number of LNER services, a reservation is strongly recommended, perhaps even necessary, if you want a seat. LNER, to their credit, has made that quite easy and accessible right up to departure. Who else would you like them to suggest for this service?!

It can also affect punctuality of services, people walking up and down the platform with luggage etc trying to find a spare seat in each carriage, especially if there's a few together. Whereas having a reservation in a specific coach, you're ready and waiting in the correct platform zone.

I think the key point is that these messages use up limited space on the departure boards, that could be better used for what they are intended for i.e. destination, time, platform, status.

Where does it end?

Avanti with its "delicious" food (with what proof exactly?)

How about TPE having the departure board message "why not sample our moreish fruit cake from the trolley"?

 

[ainsworth74]

The reality is that on a huge number of LNER services, a reservation is strongly recommended, perhaps even necessary, if you want a seat. LNER, to their credit, has made that quite easy and accessible right up to departure. Who else would you like them to suggest for this service?!

LNER are, he says for once, to be commended for making it possible to make seat reservations available online, shortly before departure (though I do wish they'd allow you to use the seat selector before it issues the reservation and it can be hit or miss if the on train displays update). This is something that should be rolled out industry wide as soon as possible.

But I do agree with the more general complaint that it takes up a lot of precious screen real estate on what is not really a particularly important piece of information. Accepting as I do the points about people wandering trains and platforms looking for spare seats, I'm not convinced that summary departure boards are the right place for that message to exist. On the screen for that specific service (such as on the platform, or on full size departure boards) go for it, but on summary boards the information needs to be clear, concise and to the point containing only relevant service information (such as the message on the 1654).

 

[43066]

I think the key point is that these messages use up limited space on the departure boards, that could be better used for what they are intended for i.e. destination, time, platform, status.

In this case useful information is being given. The usual criticism is that not enough clarity is provided, so it seems a little odd to object to this.

Avanti with its "delicious" food (with what proof exactly?)

How about TPE having the departure board message "why not sample our moreish fruit cake from the trolley"?

I think you misunderstand the requirements in this area. A statement of opinion of this nature (a “mere puff”) doesn’t require proof, and isn’t intended to be taken literally. It isn’t misleading or likely to be actionable.

 

[357]

On the screen for that specific service (such as on the platform, or on full size departure boards) go for it, but on summary boards the information needs to be clear, concise and to the point containing only relevant service information (such as the message on the 1654).

Unfortunately I suspect it is a software limitation - it definitely was a few years ago.

 

[ainsworth74]

In this case useful information is being given. The usual criticism is that not enough clarity is provided, so it seems a little odd to object to this.

Sure it is useful, but not on a summary departure board where real estate is limited. If all the TPE services on there also had two lines on them taken up with a message saying "You can reserves seats up to 15 minutes before departure at tpe.co.uk" and all the CrossCountry services as well?

You can surely see how that would rapidly mean that the summary departure board would go from listing a couple of dozen services to a handful? That is not useful. It is not clear. It is not helpful.

By all means have that information displayed on service specific boards (i.e. on the platform or on the main station departure board listing individual services) but it is extraneous and gets in the way on a summary board.

Unfortunately I suspect it is a software limitation - it definitely was a few years ago.

Disappointing if so that no-one has been able to grasp the issue and roll out a suitable update.

 

[357]

Disappointing if so that no-one has been able to grasp the issue and roll out a suitable update.

There seems to be a lack of desire in many parts to upgrade. You'd be amazed how much of the industry still relies on excel spreadsheets, and in some cases magnets on a whiteboard!

 

[ainsworth74]

There seems to be a lack of desire in many parts to upgrade

Which is a shame really! Plus even when someone does grasp the nettle we seem to end up with some bits upgraded but not others

You'd be amazed how much of the industry still relies on excel spreadsheets, and in some cases magnets on a whiteboard!

Ha I can believe that! I'm sure it wasn't all that long ago that LNER were using post-it notes and index cards to keep tabs on their HSTs and Mk4s. One strong gust of wind from an errant desk fan and chaos could result

 

[Harpo]

Far more annoying is a single departure screen scrolling through three screens worth of info and more.

On Monday I arrived with a few minutes in hand and just missed the info I needed on screen ‘1/3’ so waited an age as screen 2 did its stuff, then while screen 3 did its stuff and got ready for what I needed when up popped advance engineering works information instead. Infuriating!

 

[ainsworth74]

Far more annoying is a single departure screen scrolling through three screens worth of info and more.

On Monday I arrived with a few minutes in hand and just missed the info I needed on screen ‘1/3’ so waited an age as screen 2 did its stuff, then while screen 3 did its stuff and got ready for what I needed when up popped advance engineering works information instead. Infuriating!

Oh yes that's another perennial bugbear of mine. Again, the info on 3/3 is often useful (though sometimes not!) but it's not a good use of a single screen when you need train running information! If you want a display that will scroll through various messages like that then stick up another one next to the one that's showing train running info.

Really the whole provision of information screens is one of those things that needs a bit of centralised thinking and design work. We must have at least a dozen different types of screens with different display capabilities (LNER stations have full LED screens that can support diagrams, moving images, text and all in full colour, Northern stations are the traditional multi-line white/orange scrolling text design, etc etc). Those different screens are deployed in a hodge podge of locations because they've been done on a per-TOC basis, they're also used in different ways because different TOCs took different approaches. It's a chaotic mess and must be great fun from a contractual point of view having all these different screens from different providers with their own foibles.

I increasingly think it's more accident than design that we have screens that communicate information at all sometimes

 

[357]

Ha I can believe that! I'm sure it wasn't all that long ago that LNER were using post-it notes and index cards to keep tabs on their HSTs and Mk4s. One strong gust of wind from an errant desk fan and chaos could result

I've had calls from a signaller before saying "Your control are asking what train you're driving, they seem to have lost a few units"

 

[Harpo]

Really the whole provision of information screens is one of those things that needs a bit of centralised thinking and design work.

Quite! Information too. My Monday experience included one TOC’s trains delayed by ‘a signalling system fault’ and another's on the same screen by ‘lineside equipment problems’. Yep - same incident.

 

[ainsworth74]

I've had calls from a signaller before saying "Your control are asking what train you're driving, they seem to have lost a few units"

I once messaged a friend who worked in Northern control mentioning that RTT thought such and such a unit was working my train but it very much wasn't. From memory I think they passed that one onto a colleague at a different desk to work out where the unit that was allocated to my train actually was and how it had gotten lost. Was quite amusing to see the RTT allocation change thanks to my intervention once they'd sorted it out

 

[BurtonM]

Information board is for information and nothing else. I hate having to stand around waiting for those things to go onto the next page - shoving info off the bottom for things like that is nothing more than an annoyance to passengers.

If they really want to display that message, they can put it on a sticker on the bottom of the board surely?

 

[43066]

Sure it is useful, but not on a summary departure board where real estate is limited. If all the TPE services on there also had two lines on them taken up with a message saying "You can reserves seats up to 15 minutes before departure at tpe.co.uk" and all the CrossCountry services as well?

If it had reached the point of overload the then I completely agree. I’m not sure the board pictured is at that stage though - to me they would be useful information if I were an LNER customer. The information around an alternative service for the cancelled 1654 is also useful, and overall the board looks quite sensibly laid out.

It certainly doesn’t appear to be advertising or anything described up thread. Perhaps LNER should introduce audio announcements regarding the ability to reserve seats five mins prior to boarding .

 

[dosxuk]

If it's a repeated message that is not specific to that service, it shouldn't be on the departure boards. They could get the message across more effectively with a poster next to that board than attaching the same message to every service.

That message is effectively blocking 7 other services from appearing on the boards.

 

[Djgr]

I think you misunderstand the requirements in this area. A statement of opinion of this nature (a “mere puff”) doesn’t require proof, and isn’t intended to be taken literally. It isn’t misleading or likely to be actionable.

So it's okay that information systems can be clogged up with "mere puffs"?

 

[Andyh82]

When seeing the thread title did anyone else think the ‘advertising’ was going to be a full panel advertising something like McDonalds in between services?

I’m not massively sure how directing people to a nationalised website to book a seat is ‘advertising’?

If it's a repeated message that is not specific to that service, it shouldn't be on the departure boards. They could get the message across more effectively with a poster next to that board than attaching the same message to every service.

That message is effectively blocking 7 other services from appearing on the boards.

The LNER services at Leeds always have two lines of text underneath. Usually a message saying that passengers should stay on the concourse until the platform is advertised

 

[dosxuk]

The LNER services at Leeds always have two lines of text underneath. Usually a message saying that passengers should stay on the concourse until the platform is advertised

More information that shouldn't be on departure summary boards and could easily be replaced with a static sign.

 

[357]

More information that shouldn't be on departure summary boards and could easily be replaced with a static sign.

Is there an issue at this location with not enough trains being shown on the screen?

As long as an appropriate number of trains is shown then I don't see an issue.

The photos posted in the original message show a classic issue of infinitely delayed trains not being taken off the screens automatically. This is a software issue that I was needing to call control about and ask them to remove manually 15 years ago!

The time shown in the image is 18:21. I think it's safe to say the 16:15 isn't running.