Australia: Stark warning about "Journey Beyond" train operator

[Tetchytyke]

Proof of identity before processing a high value refund is absolutely standard practice, especially where there is any potential risk of money laundering. I note that your location in your profile is Kyiv. This is a part of the world that is understood to be at a higher risk of both money laundering and terrorist financing due to the ongoing conflict there. I'm surprised they didn't just push a refund back to the credit card it came from, but for high value transactions from riskier jurisdictions then it may not always be possible.

I don't interpret the email to mean that the document has to be issued or certified by the Australian government, merely it has to be one that the Australian government recognises as being appropriate proof of identity. A Ukrainian driving licence may not meet these requirements. The Australian government are particularly pedantic on these things, even for those of us who hold Australian citizenship; I had to jump through a lot of hoops just to renew my passport a few years ago.

A Ukrainian passport- the details of which can be easily verified using various commercial software- probably will be sufficient. They may ask for a certified copy to be sent to them, and arranging for a copy to be certified or apostilled should be straightforward enough for you.

But I don't see anything wrong with the company seeking to obtain appropriate KYC from you before pushing a large value refund back to you. It's standard practice.

 

[doc7austin]

@Tetchytyke Journet Beyond cancelled the train on me. It is absolutelly unreasonable to put this burden on me (e.g. certifying my foreign ID documents to obtain a refund).

 

[Tetchytyke]

@Tetchytyke Journet Beyond cancelled the train on me. It is absolutelly unreasonable to put this burden on me (e.g. certifying my foreign ID documents to obtain a refund).

They have to be certain of your identity to process a high value refund, especially if it is a bank transfer rather than a push back to a credit card.

I see nothing unreasonable in their request. It is common practice in the industry which I work in, with the KYC requirements in my industry kicking in at a value of EUR 3,000.

If I were you, I would provide them with a copy of your passport, uncertified and see what they say. Commercial software can verify the authenticity of a passport at the click of a button. But if you want to dig your heels in, it's your money...

 

[doc7austin]

I am fine with Journey Beyond to refund the ticket money to the card with which the purchase was made (original payment method)
A standard process that all major airlines do without a fuzz - even large-sum tickets.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jul 2025 ==

I see nothing unreasonable in their request. It is common practice in the industry which I work in, with the KYC requirements in my industry kicking in at a value of EUR 3,000.

Where is the logic in that ? Where did Journey Beyond implemented a KYC (know your customer) policy for purchasing expensive tourist train tickets ?
For large-item ticket purchases - no KYC !
For refunds (esp. for cases where Journey Beyond cancelled the train) - suddenly KYC comes into play ? That's a pretty "convenient" policy - saving Journey Beyond lots of money by not refunding tickets.

 

[Tetchytyke]

For refunds (esp. for cases where Journey Beyond cancelled the train) - suddenly KYC comes into play ? That's a pretty "convenient" policy - saving Journey Beyond lots of money by not refunding tickets.

If you purchase a service there is no potential money laundering. If that service fee is then refunded- irrespective of whose fault it is- then there is potential money laundering.

Without going into details, that's how it largely works in my industry- KYC on the way out, not on the way in.

I don't see anything unusual or untoward about their request.

 

[doc7austin]

Easy - I have asked Journey Beyond multiple times to simply rebook me for free. No money out then! David Donald has refused.

 

[RT4038]

Seems like you've got yourself into a right pickle. Did it really matter why the train was cancelled? Annoying I agree, but it seems there was a rush of blood to your head. Perhaps it was something that would not reflect well on the Company - staff absence/walkout, safety issues with the rolling stock, infestation on the train, so a more comfortable explanation was proffered? Who knows, but at the end of the day the train wasn't going to run. Not really sure what reporting them to the regulatory authority was going to achieve, apart from making you feel better for 5 minutes, but it is now causing you a bucket full of trouble. [The Passenger Train company didn't have a freight train derailment, so there is no regulatory action to be taken].

Easy - I have Journey Beyond multiple times to simply rebook me for free. No money out then! David Donald has refused.

Not surprising really - I suspect Australians don't like foreigners causing them trouble in their own country (not that many other nationalities do either!), and your action have resulted in the boss digging his heels in. Don't suppose, at this stage, he wants you on his train ever again. I expect you'll get your money back eventually, but with much work on your part. Was it all worth it?

 

[doc7austin]

Seems like you've got yourself into a right pickle. Did it really matter why the train was cancelled? Annoying I agree, but it seems there was a rush of blood to your head.

When a tourist train is cancelled, you suddenly have a lot of time - because all of your careful planing is thrown overboard.
Australia is one of the worst places in the world to have your train journey cancelled, because it is expensive to find replacement accomodation and alternative transport.

Perhaps it was something that would not reflect well on the Company - staff absence/walkout, safety issues with the rolling stock, infestation on the train, so a more comfortable explanation was proffered? Who knows, but at the end of the day the train wasn't going to run.

Well, I got the feeling that the Journey Beyond has lied to me. And being in a stressful situation, I wanted to know the truth.

Not really sure what reporting them to the regulatory authority was going to achieve, apart from making you feel better for 5 minutes, but it is now causing you a bucket full of trouble. [The Passenger Train company didn't have a freight train derailment, so there is no regulatory action to be taken].

It's different. All train derailments have to reported to the ONRSR. The regulation doesn't specify who is allowed to report this in or who isn't it.
What I did - and I had a lot of time on that day. So I called in. ONRSR was not aware of a freight train derailment. They asked me some more details and who told me that.
That must have triggered ONRSR to contact Journey Beyond. And that's why David Donald got involved.

Not surprising really - I suspect Australians don't like foreigners causing them trouble in their own country (not that many other nationalities do either!), and your action have resulted in the boss digging his heels in.

I think he didn't know that I was not an Australian resident.

Don't suppose, at this stage, he wants you on his train ever again.

I would rather ask the question how long it will be his train. With his emails he is not making himself a favour.

I expect you'll get your money back eventually, but with much work on your part. Was it all worth it?

Well, trains get cancelled all the time. However, when Avanti cancels a train, your ticket is valid on the next one. Moreover, you can always opt to get refund.
With a tourist train (that may only run once a week) it is different. There is more money involved. The cancellation of a Journey Beyond tourist train is going to cause much more harm than the cancellation of an Avanti train. And the harm is so much worse, when you realize, you had been lied to.

Hence, I think it is right to showcase how Journey Beyond is handling these cases.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jul 2025 ==

[The Passenger Train company didn't have a freight train derailment, so there is no regulatory action to be taken].
The last word is not spoken on that. Verbally a person at ONRSR told me on the phone that it is illegal to spreading the news (like the Journey Beyond staff did) about a freight derailment when there wasn't one.

 

[AdamWW]

Perhaps it was something that would not reflect well on the Company - staff absence/walkout, safety issues with the rolling stock, infestation on the train, so a more comfortable explanation was proffered?

I shall add "a more comfortable explanation was proffered" to my list of euphemisms for lying.

 

[doc7austin]

I shall add "a more comfortable explanation was proffered" to my list of euphemisms for lying.

I believe 99% of the crowds on these tourist trains would believe any proffed explanation (e.g. lie).

 

[RT4038]

When a tourist train is cancelled, you suddenly have a lot of time - because all of your careful planing is thrown overboard.
Australia is one of the worst places in the world to have your train journey cancelled, because it is expensive to find replacement accomodation and alternative transport.

I agree, but these things happen sometimes. You have to pick yourself up and find an alternative.

Well, I got the feeling that the Journey Beyond has lied to me. And being in a stressful situation, I wanted to know the truth.

Maybe, but I rather suspect some vindictiveness has crept in. It still didn't make any difference as to whether the train ran or not.

It's different. All train derailments have to reported to the ONRSR. The regulation doesn't specify who is allowed to report this in or who isn't it.
What I did - and I had a lot of time on that day. So I called in. ONRSR was not aware of a freight train derailment. They asked me some more details and who told me that.
That must have triggered ONRSR to contact Journey Beyond. And that's why David Donald got involved.

And where has that got you?

Well, trains get cancelled all the time. However, when Avanti cancels a train, your ticket is valid on the next one. Moreover, you can always opt to get refund.
With a tourist train (that may only run once a week) it is different. There is more money involved. The cancellation of a Journey Beyond tourist train is going to cause much more harm than the cancellation of an Avanti train. And the harm is so much worse, when you realize, you had been lied to.

How much 'harm' a cancellation causes is neither here nor there. It was a tourist train in Australia, not Avanti. A better comparator would be the VSOE. Rebooking on the next one may not have been an option for either you or them. What does it really matter why the train was cancelled - it was not going to run. No point in getting upset about it. Trying to cause them trouble has resulted in you being caused trouble. Is it worth your 5 minutes of felling better? Perhaps you could have spent that time planning a different itinerary?

I believe 99% of the crowds on these tourist trains would believe any proffed explanation (e.g. lie).

But does it really matter? The train didn't run for whatever the reason. I expect they have moved on, but you are still trying to deal with it.

 

[doc7austin]

And where has that got you?

Big trouble for David Donald, admitting that a policy existed that foreigners were not entitled to refunds.

What does it really matter why the train was cancelled - it was not going to run.

Passengers would revolt if you didn't tell them a reason.

Have you heard about the recent Antarctica cruise scandal ?

 

[ainsworth74]

Passengers would revolt if you didn't tell them a reason.

A reason was of course given at the time by Journey Beyond staff...

 

[Mike395]

Out of interest, has the avenue of a chargeback with the credit card company been pursued? I'd have gone there long before ending up in an email exchange with the MD....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Out of interest, has the avenue of a chargeback with the credit card company been pursued? I'd have gone there long before ending up in an email exchange with the MD....

Unfortunately it seems the OP left it too long for this (or Section 75) to apply.

 

[Mike395]

Unfortunately it seems the OP left it too long for this (or Section 75) to apply.

Yes I appreciate it's now comfortably time-barred, but I was interested in why this avenue wasn't pursued at the time.

 

[doc7austin]

A reason was of course given at the time by Journey Beyond staff...

Exactly, the staff did it to calm down the passengers. It worked for 99%. It didn't work for me.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jul 2025 ==

Out of interest, has the avenue of a chargeback with the credit card company been pursued? I'd have gone there long before ending up in an email exchange with the MD....

Yes, I tried, but failed.

 

[ainsworth74]

Exactly, the staff did it to calm down the passengers. It worked for 99%. It didn't work for me.

Indeed, though I wonder if those other passengers have now had their refunds? I suspect that they probably have.

I too get annoyed when companies lie about things but sometimes you've got to be pragmatic and lose a battle (the lie over the reason for the cancellation) to win the war (getting a refund).

 

[doc7austin]

Indeed, though I wonder if those other passengers have now had their refunds? I suspect that they probably have.

I am in contact with some of them. They didn't.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Unfortunately it seems the OP left it too long for this (or Section 75) to apply.

The OP's location doesn't appear to be in the UK, so s.75 wouldn't apply.

A reason was of course given at the time by Journey Beyond staff...

It wouldn't be the first, nor the last, time that an individual staff member heard something on the jungle drums, passed it on, and then that information turned out to be incorrect.

I don't see that the staff member would have any incentive to lie.

I too get annoyed when companies lie about things but sometimes you've got to be pragmatic and lose a battle (the lie over the reason for the cancellation) to win the war (getting a refund).

I'm genuinely at a loss as to what the argument is, to be quite honest.

Asking for KYC for a high value refund is absolutely standard practice in many industries. If suitable KYC is provided (and a foreign driving licence would often not be accepted in my industry) and the refund still isn't forthcoming then that's a different matter.

But right now they've asked for KYC and, rather than provide it, the OP has chosen to pick a battle over it. That's entirely the OP's prerogative but I don't really understand why.

 

[signed]

At the end of the day, if they won't refund you even if you provide a passport copy (I doubt any court's will take lightly to you not doing that before initiating action, but I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice) your only option is to take them to small claims

 

[doc7austin]

Asking for KYC for a high value refund is absolutely standard practice in many industries. If suitable KYC is provided (and a foreign driving licence would often not be accepted in my industry) and the refund still isn't forthcoming then that's a different matter.

But right now they've asked for KYC and, rather than provide it, the OP has chosen to pick a battle over it. That's entirely the OP's prerogative but I don't really understand why.

Journey Beyond is trying to trick me. I have no guarantee that Journey Beyond is going to issue the money refund, after I have provided them with my passport copy.

I have good reason to mistrust David Donald:
1) He wrote on May 13 that he requires to see my drivers license. I provided that. And guess what ? David comes up with a new idea to deny the refund.
2) It is safe to assume that David has a much different intention to obtain my passport copy.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jul 2025 ==

At the end of the day, if they won't refund you even if you provide a passport copy (I doubt any court's will take lightly to you not doing that before initiating action, but I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice) your only option is to take them to small claims

1. I do not possess an identity document, which has been certified by the Australian Government.
2. I did exactly what David Donald asked me of.

Additionally, please note that as per our company policy, any refund processed by Journey Beyond requires an identity verification. Therefore, I will need a copy of your driver's licence, passport, or other government certified identity documents.

 

[signed]

1. I do not possess an identity document, which has been certified by the Australian Government.

You do, a passport. A national passport is recognized by the australian government.

In most countries the only way for a foreigner to identify themselves.

 

[Tetchytyke]

He wrote on May 13 that he requires to see my drivers license. I provided that. And guess what ? David comes up with a new idea to deny the refund.

Drivers licences often aren't accepted for ID outside of their country of issue because they are harder to verify, and I presume that you don't have an Australian driving licence. Perhaps he could/should have been clearer on this, but that doesn't mean his email was a lie.

I have an Isle of Man driving licence and most people look at it with a bemused face when I show it.

Passports, on the other hand, are very easy to verify. At work I use a specialist provider who verify it immediately.

I have no guarantee that Journey Beyond is going to issue the money refund, after I have provided them with my passport copy.

You don't have a guarantee, but you're definitely not going to get your refund by continuing to dig your heels in about it.

It is safe to assume that David has a much different intention to obtain my passport copy.

And do what with it?

 

[sprunt]

If you purchase a service there is no potential money laundering. If that service fee is then refunded- irrespective of whose fault it is- then there is potential money laundering.

Without going into details, that's how it largely works in my industry- KYC on the way out, not on the way in.

I don't see anything unusual or untoward about their request.

I'm struggling to see the potential for money laundering here. There isn't any layering I can see, and it isn't the client who's decided to cancel the service and have the money returned to somewhere other than where it came in.

 

[Mike395]

Exactly, the staff did it to calm down the passengers. It worked for 99%. It didn't work for me.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jul 2025 ==


Yes, I tried, but failed.

Failed under what grounds? I don't know your location but in the UK/EU an entire failure to provide a contracted service at all would constitute grounds for a chargeback.

 

[doc7austin]

You do, a passport. A national passport is recognized by the australian government.

My driver's license is also recognized by the Australian Governments (its state governments), when I am driving through Australia as a tourist.

Drivers licences often aren't accepted for ID outside of their country of issue because they are harder to verify,

Your UK drivers license will be accepted by all state police forces in the USA, as long as you are a temporary guest.

 

[The exile]

I'm struggling to see the potential for money laundering here. There isn't any layering I can see, and it isn't the client who's decided to cancel the service and have the money returned to somewhere other than where it came in.

Journey Beyond’s bank doesn’t know that - they’ve got to allow for the possibility of collusion.

 

[Mike395]

With apologies to @doc7austin but I'm going to lock this thread. I've been made aware of multiple bits of information being sent to members privately as replies, rather than put on the public thread, which fill gaps they're clearly not willing to disclose publicly, and without which this thread cannot produce any further useful discussion.

 

[Mike395]

Unlocked for doc7austin to provide an update