South Wales Mainline Improvements

[a good off]

Years ago this would have been impossible due to the heavy amount of freight traffic on the Reliefs. Not much to get in the way now…

 

[positron]

Presumably part of this money is being spent on upgrading the relief lines, so hopefully there's capacity for some freight too. Especially if they upgrade some of the switches to get you into/out of freight sidings

 

[John R]

AIUI (from a recent article in Modern Railways) the introduction of electric arc furnaces at the Margam steelworks will result in a significant increase in inbound freight traffic along the main line, as a huge amount of scrap steel is required to feed the furnaces.

 

[Christian Schm]

The proposed train service is 2tph Cardiff-Bristol and 2tph Cardiff-Cheltenham.

The 2tph Cardiff-Bristol is additional to the current trains, and will allow those to be speeded up - probably Newport only, though there may be a case for some to stop at STJ as there’s a fair amount of travel from STJ to Bath. AFAIK the timetabling had been done and it fits.

Pilning so far not included but as (English) Severnside is now identified as a key employment destination in various West Of England plans, and as there is now a working group to improve PT from there towards Wales, that should hopefully being looked at next.

The 2tph Cardiff-Cheltenham would be an upgrade to the current 1tph. This requires some work done in Cheltenham, but that work is part of WoE rail plans anyway. So the new stations would have 4tph - which is the Welsh Government’s aspiration for all Cardiff Capital Region stations

 

[Caaardiff]

Where does the XC Cardiff-Nottingham fit into all that? Would that make Cheltenham 3tph or would they put the new stops in?

 

[John R]

Where does the XC Cardiff-Nottingham fit into all that? Would that make Cheltenham 3tph or would they put the new stops in?

XC would not be calling at the new local stations (with the possible exception of Cardiff Parkway, which is a different development anyway).

So yes, 3 tph if the TfW service is increased to 2tph.

 

[Envoy]

I think that the TFW Cardiff to Cheltenham service should be extended - see:> https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/ashchurch-for-tewkesbury-station-needs-more-services.289599/

Having say FLIRTS running a stopping service from Bristol TM to Cardiff seems a good idea apart from the problem of terminating in Cardiff. I wonder if they could be extended to Bridgend via Rhoose - which would give the added bonus of serving Cardiff Airport?

 

[John R]

I think that the TFW Cardiff to Cheltenham service should be extended - see:> https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/ashchurch-for-tewkesbury-station-needs-more-services.289599/

Having say FLIRTS running a stopping service from Bristol TM to Cardiff seems a good idea apart from the problem of terminating in Cardiff. I wonder if they could be extended to Bridgend via Rhoose - which would give the added bonus of serving Cardiff Airport?

It’s already been extended from Gloucester to Cheltenham, and now there is a proposal to double the service. I think there is a limit to how much TfW should be relied upon to improve services in England. Extension of the hourly Bristol to Gloucester service would be the obvious answer.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

It’s already been extended from Gloucester to Cheltenham, and now there is a proposal to double the service. I think there is a limit to how much TfW should be relied upon to improve services in England.

I suppose it deppends on whether such an extention would be profitable. Obviously it would be unresonable ro expect Welsh taxpayers to subsidise improved services in England.

 

[The exile]

I suppose it deppends on whether such an extention would be profitable. Obviously it would be unresonable ro expect Welsh taxpayers to subsidise improved services in England.

Not that having a service physically operated by a TfW train and crew need mean any greater call on the Welsh public purse regardless of whether or not the extension washes its face financially (which it almost certainly wouldn’t). Any necessary subsidy could come from one of several English pots, which unfortunately are all rather empty at the moment.

 

[John R]

Not that having a service physically operated by a TfW train and crew need mean any greater call on the Welsh public purse regardless of whether or not the extension washes its face financially (which it almost certainly wouldn’t). Any necessary subsidy could come from one of several English pots, which unfortunately are all rather empty at the moment.

True, but the reality is that the Welsh govt is unlikely to even want to get involved in it. I can’t see what possible upside there would be for it.

And as noted before, there is a much more logical service to extend to facilitate it, which is the Bristol to Gloucester hourly service. That keeps all the financials within England, and moreover I think it is a much more logical fit in terms of customer demand.

 

[The exile]

True, but the reality is that the Welsh govt is unlikely to even want to get involved in it. I can’t see what possible upside there would be for it.

And as noted before, there is a much more logical service to extend to facilitate it, which is the Bristol to Gloucester hourly service. That keeps all the financials within England, and moreover I think it is a much more logical fit in terms of customer demand.

Indeed.

 

[Dr Day]

I suppose it deppends on whether such an extention would be profitable. Obviously it would be unresonable ro expect Welsh taxpayers to subsidise improved services in England.

Is it actually Welsh taxpayers or more general UK taxpayers, like those who subsidise all the rest of TfWs/XC/GWR/Avanti services across both Wales and England?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jul 2025 ==

I suppose it deppends on whether such an extention would be profitable. Obviously it would be unresonable ro expect Welsh taxpayers to subsidise improved services in England.

Is it actually Welsh taxpayers or more general UK taxpayers, like those who subsidise all the rest of TfWs/XC/GWR/Avanti services across both Wales and England?

 

[John R]

Is it actually Welsh taxpayers or more general UK taxpayers, like those who subsidise all the rest of TfWs/XC/GWR/Avanti services across both Wales and England?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jul 2025 ==


Is it actually Welsh taxpayers or more general UK taxpayers, like those who subsidise all the rest of TfWs/XC/GWR/Avanti services across both Wales and England?

Well unless the Welsh govt was fully recompensed for any loss for the net cost of the extended service I don’t see how it wouldn’t end up with Welsh taxpayers footing the bill.

But this is a very speculative digression from the topic of the improvement along the south wales main line with 5 new stations, so maybe we should leave it there.

 

[mrmartin]

Cardiff East is poorly located imo unless there are plans to knock down a lot of the industrial units and retail park units and replace them with high density housing longer term?

I strongly suspect that the retail park at least towards the city is doing very badly. TGI Fridays went bust, Poundland is virtually bust (sold for £1 itself!), huge charity shop, Argos unit has been vacant for years.

However if it remains as is - then it is going to be extremely poorly used imo. Not a nice place on foot to walk to, nearly all of the shops are geared to heavy stuff/DIY which needs a car. Even on bus it's pretty oppressive just crossing Newport road to get from from the station to the bus stop out of the city.

Perhaps slightly more useful when/if the bay tram gets there, but even still the interchange options are going to be pretty niche, given you could go the other way towards central and queen Street which gives far better destinations and timings.

For roath and Penylan crwys road would be much more convenient and far better on foot.

 

[Caaardiff]

Cardiff East is poorly located imo unless there are plans to knock down a lot of the industrial units and retail park units and replace them with high density housing longer term?

I strongly suspect that the retail park at least towards the city is doing very badly. TGI Fridays went bust, Poundland is virtually bust (sold for £1 itself!), huge charity shop, Argos unit has been vacant for years.

However if it remains as is - then it is going to be extremely poorly used imo. Not a nice place on foot to walk to, nearly all of the shops are geared to heavy stuff/DIY which needs a car. Even on bus it's pretty oppressive just crossing Newport road to get from from the station to the bus stop out of the city.

Perhaps slightly more useful when/if the bay tram gets there, but even still the interchange options are going to be pretty niche, given you could go the other way towards central and queen Street which gives far better destinations and timings.

For roath and Penylan crwys road would be much more convenient and far better on foot.

I'd disagree. It's located next to Tremorfa and Splott which are densely populated areas. It's on the edge of Roath and a bit further to Pen-y-lan. There's been some housing developments along Colchester Avenue.
There's industrial areas in Tremorfa as well as Ipswich Road.

Not everyone comes from or wants to go to Cardiff City Centre.

In terms of retail parks, that's just the general state of retail in the UK. TGIs going bust as well as Poundland is nothing to do with Newport Road, it's down to how those businesses are run in the current climate.
Argos was replaced by Home Bargains and a Pet store a while ago.
That whole stretch of retail area just needs a refresh. The old Leekes building is tatty, but a well located space, Carpet right the same, as well as the area by The Range.
Leckwith Retail park isn't actually close to many residential areas but seems to do OK.
Having the station there could lead to the area being rejuvenated.

 

[MikePJ]

I'm pretty sure that the landowners will look at the opportunities to turn some of those industrial and commercial buildings into houses or flats, especially if the presence of the new station helps with the planning application.

 

[Christian Schm]

I think that the TFW Cardiff to Cheltenham service should be extended - see:> https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/ashchurch-for-tewkesbury-station-needs-more-services.289599/

I thought the West of England rail plans propose some additional services between Bristol and Worcester?

Cardiff East is poorly located imo unless there are plans to knock down a lot of the industrial units and retail park units and replace them with high density housing longer term?

One of Mark Barry's Metro papers makes exactly that point, that with a railway station you could have more valuable businesses there

Perhaps slightly more useful when/if the bay tram gets there

Which is of course also proposed.

I'd disagree. It's located next to Tremorfa and Splott which are densely populated areas. It's on the edge of Roath and a bit further to Pen-y-lan. There's been some housing developments along Colchester Avenue.
There's industrial areas in Tremorfa as well as Ipswich Road.

Well in my view Splott should have its own station. Re Roath and Colchester Avenue (and indeed Heath Hospital), there would be interchange to Cardiff Bus' existing orbital routes 1/2.

 

[mrmartin]

I thought the West of England rail plans propose some additional services between Bristol and Worcester?

One of Mark Barry's Metro papers makes exactly that point, that with a railway station you could have more valuable businesses there

Which is of course also proposed.

Well in my view Splott should have its own station. Re Roath and Colchester Avenue (and indeed Heath Hospital), there would be interchange to Cardiff Bus' existing orbital routes 1/2.

You do realise the 1 and 2 routes are every 1 hour, no sunday service and finish at ~6pm?

 

[John R]

You do realise the 1 and 2 routes are every 1 hour, no sunday service and finish at ~6pm?

The City Circle has been running for at least 50 years, and I understand it the primary purpose is to provide better connectivity to the Heath Hospital and enable people visiting and attending appointments to not have to go into the centre and back out again.

 

[mrmartin]

Yes but I cannot see how it could provide any reasonable connectivity to the new train station we are discussing. I've got it a few times and I am often the only passenger.

 

[John R]

Yes but I cannot see how it could provide any reasonable connectivity to the new train station we are discussing. I've got it a few times and I am often the only passenger.

I completely agree!

 

[MikePJ]

It's also worth noting that bike+train is a good combination for a residential area like that. Cardiff council's cycling masterplan includes a route from the city centre out to St Mellons, and this passes right through the area where the station will be. I'm involved in some local campaign groups for better cycling provision in and around Cardiff and we'd certainly be pushing for a big secure bike park at a future Cardiff East station.

 

[Caaardiff]

Yes but I cannot see how it could provide any reasonable connectivity to the new train station we are discussing. I've got it a few times and I am often the only passenger.

It can be quiet during the middle of the day, but it's never dead. I've often caught this bus and it can be busy. Its difficult to gauge its popularity because of its routing around the city.
It stops just outside TGIs which is right by the proposed Newport road station. So anyone coming from the East could get off and catch the CC if the frequency was increased. I cant see it making much different than going into Central and getting one of the more regular direct buses around the city.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Cardiff East is bit of a sleeper station really. Eventually it's designed to be a junction with Cardiff Crossrail providing a link from the mainline to Splott, Tremorfa and Cardiff Bay. That's probably at least a decade away but it's probably worth building the station now while the money is on the table.

 

[Christian Schm]

You do realise the 1 and 2 routes are every 1 hour, no sunday service and finish at ~6pm?

Well orbital routes in particular rely on good interchange to make them successful...

 

[Brubulus]

Isn't there a plan under Midlands Rail Hub for there to be an extra hourly service from Moor St to Cardiff. How do these plans for another Cardiff-Cheltenham stopper impact this? 4tph from Cardiff to Gloucester/Cheltenham seems unreasonable.

 

[positron]

Isn't there a plan under Midlands Rail Hub for there to be an extra hourly service from Moor St to Cardiff. How do these plans for another Cardiff-Cheltenham stopper impact this? 4tph from Cardiff to Gloucester/Cheltenham seems unreasonable.

Why does it seem unreasonable? Fwiw I'm assuming that moor Street train would be cross-country (GBR) rather than tfw and so would be an express service. So the smaller stations would still be tfw only. Assuming the lines have the capacity why is it unreasonable to use it?

 

[Christian Schm]

Firstly the Metro proposal suggest 4tph at all stations. WG have confirmed to MCC that this includes AGV, STJ, CDT and CPW. Though it is accepted that this is a long-term aspiration, and quite frankly the proposed 2tph will be sufficient for the local service for quite a while.

Two separate longer-distance service would be a good idea. One the one hand the current cross-country service would surely benefit from speeding up - providing a proper inter-city service BHM-CNM-GCR-NWP-CDF. On the other hand the market towns along the line (e.g. CPW, LYD, Tewkesbury) benefit from having more than just a local service. What I don’t think would be a good idea would be to extent the local TfW service to Birmingham…

 

[cle]

It’s already been extended from Gloucester to Cheltenham, and now there is a proposal to double the service. I think there is a limit to how much TfW should be relied upon to improve services in England. Extension of the hourly Bristol to Gloucester service would be the obvious answer.

It seems logical that this could be one of the stoppers, it could always run faster north of Cheltenham. And if TfW, doesn't really matter - although given the bays/sharing, I would think interworking would be planned with the new Bristol, and indeed the Hereford. TfW could run the Bristol-Moor St, and maybe it could interwork with the Bristol-Cardiff, and be something of a triangular operation, if needed.