Western Region changeover from GWR ATC to BR AWS in 1970s

[Taunton]

I am wondering how the changeover from ATC to AWS on the Western Region in the mid-1970s was handled. It needed to be complete before HST service started on a route. Were all traction units converted to dual system, then the ground equipment was changed, then the old equipment on locos was removed, or was it some other sequence?

Shortly before this work started there was a fatal for crew accident at Bridgwater in 1974 when a train ran through signals at speed and collided with the one ahead. The LMR-based Peak loco only had BR AWS, and the track was still GWR ATC. It had been a longstanding practice, from steam days, that locos without ATC were not allowed on WR main lines, hence the universal changing of locos at Bristol, but this requirement had been relaxed. I believe after the accident there was union pressure to return to the former practice, but what was the impact on the AWS changeover?

 

[Rescars]

An interesting question. From very hazy memories and limited exposure, I recall seeing the ATC ramps being replaced quite suddenly with AWS magnets. So I think there was no duplication of ground equipment. I have no knowledge of the traction side. Would it have been practical to have fitted a dual system? Presumably there wasn't an overnight wholesale regional conversion as some sort of repeat performance of May 1892!

 

[Magdalia]

I have no knowledge of the traction side. Would it have been practical to have fitted a dual system?

Yes, various locomotives had dual BR/WR AWS, including the earliest reallocations of classes 25 and 31 to the Western Region in the early 1970s. Some of classes 37 and 47 also had dual BR/AWS, and possibly class 46 too?

I am wondering how the changeover from ATC to AWS on the Western Region in the mid-1970s was handled.

June 1974 Railway Observer says this for the Western Region London Division:

During April many of the former GWR aws ramps were removed from the main lines of the division, mainly between Paddington and Swindon. BR standard aws ramps have now replaced them as part of the HST programme.

The Western Region made the change very quickly February 1976 Railway Observer says this:

the western Region has now completed its programme of replacing the GWR automatic train control system by BR's own AWS, with the final change-over being made in the Hereford area.

But there is an ironic twist in the June 1976 issue:

It has been pointed out that, although all Western Region trackage has been converted to BR aws, some LMR ex GW lines are still to be done, as, for example, between Smethwick West and Droitwich Spa via Stourbridge Junction.

So it seems that the last outpost of GWR ATC was on the LMR!

 

[Taunton]

These Birmingham lines sound like those ex-GWR ones whose passenger service was entirely by former WR dmus, operating out of Tyseley depot.

I've wondered about the 10 Peaks, D33-42, allocated from new to Bristol, and which for long stayed there as a separate group, as to whether they had dual equipment or not. I never saw them operate off the ex-Midland Birmingham to Bristol line.

 

[midland1]

There is a photo in Danger Signals by Stanley Hall of a ATC ramp being removed at Stratford-u-A in 1979.

 

[John Webb]

Link to the Bridgewater accident report: https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DoE_Bridgwater1974.pdf for those interested.

The guard of the second train was travelling in the rear cab of the loco and it was he that was killed. The accident was blamed on the driver and the second man for not observing the (colour light) signals.

 

[ac6000cw]

Yes, various locomotives had dual BR/WR AWS, including the earliest reallocations of classes 25 and 31 to the Western Region in the early 1970s. Some of classes 37 and 47 also had dual BR/AWS, and possibly class 46 too?

There were class 46's allocated to Laira in the 1970s (I think primarily for the NE/SW trains) so they may well have had dual AWS/ATC. I used to see them regularly at New Street on those services. Whether any of the Gateshead-allocated 46's had dual AWS/ATC I've no idea.

These Birmingham lines sound like those ex-GWR ones whose passenger service was entirely by former WR dmus, operating out of Tyseley depot.

They were - 'Smethwick West and Droitwich Spa via Stourbridge Junction' was my local line in the 1970s, and services on that line often ran through to Leamington and Stratford (essentially replicating via New Street the service patterns from the then-closed Snow Hill lines).

 

[Taunton]

There were class 46's allocated to Laira in the 1970s (I think primarily for the NE/SW trains) so they may well have had dual AWS/ATC. I used to see them regularly at New Street on those services. Whether any of the Gateshead-allocated 46's had dual AWS/ATC I've no idea.

The Laira Class 46s became essentially the maids-of-all-work, also taking over from Warships, on ballast and works trains, freights, passenger reliefs, etc. They were of course steam heat only.

 

[midland1]

In the report into the Bridgewater accident it states that at 31 Dec. 1974 there were still 291 route miles still equipped with ATC.

 

[D7666]

deleted

 

[Gloster]

The 1973 Ian Allan Combined Volume (WR date 30 December 1972) shows all the 52, 200+ 47, 30 25, 28 31 and 90 37 with dual AWS; there are also quite a few DMUs. The information should be taken with a little bit of caution.

 

[D7666]

The 1973 Ian Allan Combined Volume (WR date 30 December 1972) shows all the 52, 200+ 47, 30 25, 28 31 and 90 37 with dual AWS; there are also quite a few DMUs. The information should be taken with a little bit of caution.

yes thats why I deleted my post while I look deeper

 

[ac6000cw]

They were of course steam heat only.

IIRC, at the time, all the NE/SW trains were steam heat. The NW/SW and Poole trains used dual-heat stock due to the ETH-only AC electric locos and SR cl.33 that hauled them over part of their routes.

 

[D7666]

The question about D33-D42 at Bath Road w.r.t. ATC / AWS has been asked before on a forum somewhere but IIRC it was many moons ago.

I'd suggest their allocation there was more paper to cover maintenance and they were probably in reality outbased LMR engines for work north of Bristol on legacy LMR work over legacy LMR routes, rather than WR loco proper => either no AWS or only BR AWS.

They were allocated there 1961 to 1965/66*** - and when /most/ of them moved away they went not to a specific LM depot but to 'ML' Midland Lines power controller. This move is probably a reflection of what they were doing all the time, a paper change, not a change in duty.

A spin off question might be to what extent, then, 1961/1966 Bath Road did maintenance on them - I bet they might have only done the lighter exams like A and B and Toton or somewhere did C and higher. Not every LM depot did every level of exam, and if they were outbased LM locos the same would apply.

_


re. equiping tracks, I suggest having both WR ATC and BR AWS ramps at the same location for the same signal is neither physically practical, nor makes any sense, there is zero need to go from one to both to the other with all the complexications involved. Hence observers may perceive a "sudden" change.


_


It is interesting LMR should have had the last WR ATC track routeage inherited from the 1963 changes.


The opposite happened with the 1963 WR / SR regional boundary changes - it forced WR to dual fit locos.

The first BR SR main line to be fully BR AWS equipped was Exeter Central to Pirbright Jn, completed 02/06/63 i.e. it started under SR before the boundary changes. Hence 1964 D800s took over the core passenger trains on the route, a group of D800s D803-821 were dual fitted, back then, before general dual fitting started. That is not to say other D800s did not work the route, there is a huge amount of evidence everywhere they did, in fact every BR D800 is known to have done almost from the start. (There are other reasons, unrelated, why D803-821 were nominated for the route.)

The BR SR AWS roll out started at the country ends of the Exeter and Bournemouth lines working towards London but initially only as far as the then third rail area at Pirbright. There were some electromagnetic compatibility issues needing sorting in third rail areas (in simple terms an EMU constantly running over a DC route magnetises itself into a large magnet sufficient to disturb AWS operation).

_

In a visit to Swindon works in 1972 - remember the 14:30 Wednesdays turn up at the gate thing ? while D1000s were still being overhauled - we were told D800s etc summoned to Swindon for component recovery before scrap was not just for Maybach etc parts for D1000s but they recovered their AWS fittings for further use.

_


Another WR ATC thing, definitely involving SR, those dual electrified routes with LT 3+4 rail was WR ATC loco kit fouled the LT centre rail. This had some relevance for sections, amongst others, such as Wimbledon / East Putney, then a routine freight, excursion and diversionary route.

Is there any evidence WR ATC hydraulics worked over the Met. route Harrow / Amersham ? I believe not.


_


It is always true, start a thread like this, and all sorts of gen pops up, some of it not necessarily obvious.


_


*** EDIT
Bristol Bath Raod was the legacy GWR depot, Bristol Barrow Road legacy LMR depot. Might be coincidence but Barrow Road, by then a sub depot of Bath road, closed 11/65 - might it have have been possible D33-42 operated off Barrow Road and only paper allocated to Bath Road for maintenance ? That is a question, not a statement.

 

[MadMac]

Yes, various locomotives had dual BR/WR AWS, including the earliest reallocations of classes 25 and 31 to the Western Region in the early 1970s. Some of classes 37 and 47 also had dual BR/AWS, and possibly class 46 too?

Certainly some dual-equipped DMUs were around for a period.

 

[150219]

I have a resignalling notice regarding the rationalisation of lines at Birmingham Snow Hill which clearly shows ATC ramps on the diagram, so I think it's reasonable to assume this tallys with the comments above about ATC being fitted in the early 70's on the LMR route.

Until the resignalling of Banbury in 2016 there was still an ATC ramp in the vicinity of Manor Farm LC dumped on the former Up Goods Line that previously continued to Astrop. It was presumably therefore still in situ until Astrop was switched out in around 1979, or wasn't recovered if the UGL was out of use prior to that.

Further back, although not by much, there was also an ATC ramp also dumped in the cess at Princes Risborough. IIRC it was recovered as part of the Evergreen 3 upgrade in 2012.

When Class 122 bubble car 960015 (previously 55019) was based at Aylesbury from around 2001, it still had it's ATC fitted albeit isolated and there was a note to ensure that it was always left so (and checked in case of failure).

 

[Taunton]

The question about D33-D42 at Bath Road ... I'd suggest their allocation there was more paper to cover maintenance and they were probably in reality outbased LMR engines for work north of Bristol on legacy LMR work over legacy LMR routes, rather than WR loco proper => either no AWS or only BR AWS.




Another WR ATC thing, definitely involving SR, those dual electrified routes with LT 3+4 rail was WR ATC loco kit fouled the LT centre rail. This had some relevance for sections, amongst others, such as Wimbledon / East Putney, then a routine freight, excursion and diversionary route.



Bristol Bath Road was the legacy GWR depot, Bristol Barrow Road legacy LMR depot. Might be coincidence but Barrow Road, by then a sub depot of Bath road, closed 11/65 - might it have have been possible D33-42 operated off Barrow Road and only paper allocated to Bath Road for maintenance ? That is a question, not a statement.

From youthful attention around 1962 I can say that D33-42 were very much Bristol-based locos, although seemingly only used on the Midland line north, and were tediously routine! One or more was generally on the depot tracks, and another stood on the Up centre roads at the Gloucester end of the station for long periods. It would be interesting to know when the Bristol-Birmingham line had AWS fitted. Barrow Road shed was still very much open then, and as the locos arrived before the new Bath Road diesel depot opened, I believe they were initially allocated there, and even after the Bath Road opening trains on the ex-Midland line north were only handled by Barrow Road crews.

Regarding ATC fitted stock running over LT electrification, the key point was into the Paddington Suburban platforms. As I understand it the Pressed Steel suburban dmus, and the 61xx steam tanks before them, had an adaptation of their ATC shoes whereby as they approached Paddington Suburban a specially high ATC ramp lifted the shoe beyond normal level, whereby the mechanism clipped itself up, and on departure the reverse happened. The only other locos allowed on the approach track into Suburban were Class 08 shunters, which didn't have a warning system fitted at all. Some dmus which were later transferred to Old Oak/Reading didn't have this adaptation, and were inscribed boldly on the inside cab roof "This unit must not work into Paddington Suburban", which lasted on them long after the joint track usage ceased. If we are lucky someone will be along to say "Ah, I have the works drawing of how that worked" .

 

[D7666]

From youthful attention around 1962 I can say that D33-42 were very much Bristol-based locos, although seemingly only used on the Midland line north, and were tediously routine! One or more was generally on the depot tracks, and another stood on the Up centre roads at the Gloucester end of the station for long periods. It would be interesting to know when the Bristol-Birmingham line had AWS fitted. Barrow Road shed was still very much open then, and as the locos arrived before the new Bath Road diesel depot opened, I believe they were initially allocated there, and even after the Bath Road opening trains on the ex-Midland line north were only handled by Barrow Road crews.

Regarding ATC fitted stock running over LT electrification, the key point was into the Paddington Suburban platforms. As I understand it the Pressed Steel suburban dmus, and the 61xx steam tanks before them, had an adaptation of their ATC shoes whereby as they approached Paddington Suburban a specially high ATC ramp lifted the shoe beyond normal level, whereby the mechanism clipped itself up, and on departure the reverse happened. The only other locos allowed on the approach track into Suburban were Class 08 shunters, which didn't have a warning system fitted at all. Some dmus which were later transferred to Old Oak/Reading didn't have this adaptation, and were inscribed boldly on the inside cab roof "This unit must not work into Paddington Suburban", which lasted on them long after the joint track usage ceased. If we are lucky someone will be along to say "Ah, I have the works drawing of how that worked" .

Methinks yourpersonal observation at least agrees with my theorising about Bristol.

GMTA on the Paddington suburban stuff (and then further west via Baker Street to Farringdon (G)WR sdgs). I thought about mentioning this, but, nah, someone else can do the typing, and, the subject would then have drifted in tripcocks and trainstops.

 

[Sprinter107]

There were class 46's allocated to Laira in the 1970s (I think primarily for the NE/SW trains) so they may well have had dual AWS/ATC. I used to see them regularly at New Street on those services. Whether any of the Gateshead-allocated 46's had dual AWS/ATC I've no idea.


They were - 'Smethwick West and Droitwich Spa via Stourbridge Junction' was my local line in the 1970s, and services on that line often ran through to Leamington and Stratford (essentially replicating via New Street the service patterns from the then-closed Snow Hill lines).

Many trains on the Stourbridge line ran through to Lichfield City from the early 1970s through to 1978 when the Cross City service started. I can't recall any running through onto Leamington and Stratford lines, such trains would've been very useful to me back then.
While the majority of trains were former WR dmu sets, we also had ex Monument Lane LMR 3 coach Met Cam class 101s. I wouldnt think they'd have been fitted with the WR ATC equipment.

 

[MadMac]

Stuart Mackay (owner of the Railcar site) has very kindly pointed me towards This Picture of a 117 with the buffer beam painted “Fitted with ATC clip-up gear and trip cock” and This Picture of the in-cab notice in a 118.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Regarding ATC fitted stock running over LT electrification, the key point was into the Paddington Suburban platforms. As I understand it the Pressed Steel suburban dmus, and the 61xx steam tanks before them, had an adaptation of their ATC shoes whereby as they approached Paddington Suburban a specially high ATC ramp lifted the shoe beyond normal level, whereby the mechanism clipped itself up, and on departure the reverse happened.

Sometime in the 1960s, there was a remodelling of the Paddington Suburban station to segregate the LT lines from the BR ones. LT got the northside Island (platforms 15 & 16) and BR the southside (13 & 14)

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Sometime in the 1960s, there was a remodelling of the Paddington Suburban station to segregate the LT lines from the BR ones. LT got the northside Island (platforms 15 & 16) and BR the southside (13 & 14)

Yes, the major remodelling was in November 1967 - main-line services were diverted to Kensington Olympia and Marylebone whilst the work was in progress. 'Main Line' and 'Suburban' were dropped from the timetables after this.

Layout here.

 

[matchmaker]

These Birmingham lines sound like those ex-GWR ones whose passenger service was entirely by former WR dmus, operating out of Tyseley depot.

I've wondered about the 10 Peaks, D33-42, allocated from new to Bristol, and which for long stayed there as a separate group, as to whether they had dual equipment or not. I never saw them operate off the ex-Midland Birmingham to Bristol line.

As far as I can find, no 44, 45 or 46 had dual AWS.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Yes, the major remodelling was in November 1967 - main-line services were diverted to Kensington Olympia and Marylebone whilst the work was in progress. 'Main Line' and 'Suburban' were dropped from the timetables after this.

Layout here.

Here’s a Pathè film from YouTube giving a brief glimpse of some of the rebuilding and relaying work at Paddington.

There is another film somewhere (on DVD?) showing a more detail view.

 

[Taunton]

Here’s a Pathè film from YouTube giving a brief glimpse of some of the rebuilding and relaying work at Paddington.

Pressed Steel dmu appears to be departing on the Suburban station lines, with ATC doubtless clipped up (possibly for the last time), at 0:55 in the film.

 

[45Fox]

As far as I can find, no 44, 45 or 46 had dual AWS

I worked with a lot of drivers in the past who were passed on 45s and 46s, one of them was telling me once about locos with dual BR AWS & WR ATC, he went into quite some detail about it on (IIRC) some 47s. I asked him that very question, if 45/46s had been equipped with both, he replied, "none of them that I ever got on."