Using KeyGo, how does the system differentiate between peak / off peak for departures around 09:30?

[Richardr]

Recently I caught a train from St Albans to West Hampstead. It was the 9:27, which is the last train that is peak in the morning. I did that rather than wait for the next train which is off-peak. I was on KeyGo, and entered the station at 9:20, and at that point no delay was indicated.

As it happened, the train was slightly delayed, and arrived and left not long after 9:30. However, by that time those waiting for the first off-peak train had been able to enter the station and, not least as it changed platform to the same platform as the next slow train, largely got that train.

I assume the peak / off-peak split depends on the time tapped in rather than the actual time of the train, and it is right that people are charged differing amounts for the same journey depending on when exactly they tapped in?

I was charged what I had originally expected i.e. the peak fare, so am not worried about the personal cost, but am just interested in the designation of peak / off-peak.

 

[jfollows]

See https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/tube-and-rail-fares

Peak and off-peak times​

We charge higher fares at the busiest times of the day. Peak and off-peak fares are charged based on the time you touch in.

Using pay as you go​

On Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services in London:

• Peak fares - Monday to Friday (not on public holidays) between 06:30 and 09:30, and between 16:00 and 19:00
• Off-peak fares - at all other times and if you travel from a station outside Zone 1 to a station in Zone 1 between 16:00 and 19:00, Monday to Friday

There are a few minutes’ leeway on the times, I can’t recall exactly how many, so if you touch in at 09:29 you probably get charged the lower amount.

See also https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...fl-contactless-fares-on-national-rail.284749/

1) Touching in after the start of the AM peak

Peak starts at 06.35.

2) Touching in before the end of the AM peak

Off-peak starts at 09.27.

3) Touching in after the start of the PM peak

Peak starts at 16.05.

4) Touching in before the end of the PM peak

Off-peak starts at 18.57.

Please note that the grace times quoted above apply for both Oyster and Contactless. The quoted times are as set at the particular validation devices and these may sometimes vary from true time; the grace times are therefore not guaranteed to apply from the perception of the user.

 

[Watershed]

There are different thresholds and rules depending on the way you pay for your journey.

With contactless or Oyster PAYG (not that Oyster is valid at St Albans) it's the time you touch in that matters. As @jfollows says, there's actually a small leeway in the passenger's favour at each end of the peak periods, basically intended so that you can get through the barriers in time for an 09:30 train for example.

With paper tickets, restrictions usually apply based on the scheduled departure time rather than the actual live running, though it can vary depending on the wording of the restriction code that applies to the ticket you buy - some restriction codes are based on actual departure times.

However, in practice the barriers (and barrier staff) will usually accept or reject a ticket based on predetermined times of day, at least for frequent/local services like Thameslink. For long distance services the restrictions based on scheduled timings would generally be enforced even in the event of (slight) late-running.

KeyGo charges either the paper or PAYG fare, whichever is cheaper. As I understand it, this is done based on it working out which train(s) you are likely to have used based on both your touch in and touch out times - taking into account any disruption. It then calculates the cheapest fare that would have been valid for that service; AFAIK the PAYG fares it uses are encoded in the same way as paper fares, i.e. that they're charged based on scheduled rather than actual timings.

Therefore I'd expect it to potentially still charge a peak PAYG or Anytime paper fare if you take a late-running train scheduled to depart before 09:30 (or whenever the relevant cut-off is for your journey). Of course that may also work in your favour at the start of the morning and evening peak, if there are late-running services scheduled to depart before the relevant cut-offs.

I haven't used KeyGo much so I can't definitively say that's the behaviour, but based on my understanding of how the system works, that's what if expect it to do. If anyone has any experience of using it around the peak/off-peak threshold when there's disruption (@Haywain ?) that would be useful to know.

 

[Richardr]

Thanks for those answers which tie in with what happened.

Interestingly enough in a related issue that ties in with a recent thread here, the delay repay calculation seems to completely ignore the tap in time and is just on the train time. A couple of times recently I've received delay repay for Thameslink trains that were delayed by more than 15 minutes, but for which I only tapped in a couple of minutes or so before the delayed train arrived.

 

[Watershed]

Interestingly enough in a related issue that ties in with a recent thread here, the delay repay calculation seems to completely ignore the tap in time and is just on the train time. A couple of times recently I've received delay repay for Thameslink trains that were delayed by more than 15 minutes, but for which I only tapped in a couple of minutes or so before the delayed train arrived.

I think that is correct. You can't deduce whether or not the passenger intended to travel on a particular service based on touch in or touch out times. Those only indicate what train they were likely on - not which one they intended to catch. There's an argument to say that if you don't already have a ticket to travel when the disruption is known about, you can't claim Delay Repay - but at least in this case, it would seem they're not applying that.

 

[redreni]

Thanks for those answers which tie in with what happened.

Interestingly enough in a related issue that ties in with a recent thread here, the delay repay calculation seems to completely ignore the tap in time and is just on the train time. A couple of times recently I've received delay repay for Thameslink trains that were delayed by more than 15 minutes, but for which I only tapped in a couple of minutes or so before the delayed train arrived.

Do you mean you have claimed delay repay and it's been approved? If so that's very encouraging, perhaps it was worth taking that up with the Ombudsman after all.

Or do you mean they're paying delay repay automatically because you're using KeyGo?

 

[Haywain]

Recently I caught a train from St Albans to West Hampstead. It was the 9:27, which is the last train that is peak in the morning. I did that rather than wait for the next train which is off-peak. I was on KeyGo, and entered the station at 9:20, and at that point no delay was indicated.

As it happened, the train was slightly delayed, and arrived and left not long after 9:30. However, by that time those waiting for the first off-peak train had been able to enter the station and, not least as it changed platform to the same platform as the next slow train, largely got that train.

I assume the peak / off-peak split depends on the time tapped in rather than the actual time of the train, and it is right that people are charged differing amounts for the same journey depending on when exactly they tapped in?

I was charged what I had originally expected i.e. the peak fare, so am not worried about the personal cost, but am just interested in the designation of peak / off-peak.

The complication that comes in with KeyGo is that, unlike contactless, it doesn't charge based on each journey in isolation but on what the appropriate charges are for the whole day. So the journey you refer to could be charged as an Anytime Day Single or the PAYG Peak single, but what you did late in the day can cause a Return fare to be applied. In isolation, I would have expected that journey to be charged as the PAYG fare as it is cheaper than the Anytime Day Single. Without knowing what you did across the day it is difficult to say.

If anyone has any experience of using it around the peak/off-peak threshold when there's disruption (@Haywain ?) that would be useful to know.

I don't think I have any appropriate experience of this.

Or do you mean they're paying delay repay automatically because you're using KeyGo?

I have had that happen on one occasion, when there was major disruption preventing train leaving Brighton for a couple of hours. I would guess that it was applied automatically to anyone travelling from Brighton at the relevant time. All the other qualifying delays I have experienced when using KeyGo have required me to apply for DR compensation.

 

[Richardr]

Do you mean you have claimed delay repay and it's been approved? If so that's very encouraging, perhaps it was worth taking that up with the Ombudsman after all.

Or do you mean they're paying delay repay automatically because you're using KeyGo?

It's because of KeyGo and they contact you saying that they have:

created a new Auto Delay Repay claim for this

For some bizarre reason they don't automatically refund the account you use to pay fares, nor leave it as a credit against your next fare, so you have to go online and give them an account to pay into. So from the email you have to "Please click the button below to verify your details and select your preferred payment method."

There could be a weekly cap that will affect it, so the amount can't be confirmed then, nor paid for at least a week or so.

 

[Haywain]

For some bizarre reason they don't automatically refund the account you use to pay fares, nor leave it as a credit against your next fare, so you have to go online and give them an account to pay into. So from the email you have to "Please click the button below to verify your details and select your preferred payment method."

When I received the automatic DR it was 'paid' in eVouchers to my account.