Future of the 350/2s

[Class 466]

350s to displace 323s to displace 331s to replace 333s is what I'd heard (take with a pinch of salt obviously)

 

[Sparks807Evo]

350s to displace 323s to displace 331s to replace 333s is what I'd heard (take with a pinch of salt obviously)

Funny enough my first thought on all of this was that internal cascade - weren’t the 332s rotting underneath and so wonder if any similar considerations on the 333s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

350s to displace 323s to displace 331s to replace 333s is what I'd heard (take with a pinch of salt obviously)

Are there problems with the 333s? They are newer than 323s and air conditioned too.

 

[OhNoAPacer]

There aren't any long distance Northern EMU services and won't be unless Windermere gets the wires. Blackpool stoppers are not long distance services, and 350/2s are perfectly suited to them, particularly to families who will like the well-spaced facing bays of 6, which are the closest you can get on the railway to a family car. They really are decent units (maybe not as decent as a /1, /3 or /4, but you can't have everything, and I suspect families might even prefer the /2 due to more facing bays).

If I were Northern I'd consider taking a couple of rows out on the 2 side and putting in a luggage rack, but aside from that they'd be perfect for those services. If ASDO could be fitted or Unit Deselect used, in 8 car formations too.

What families wouldn't like is the lack if a table, they don't even have a shelf to put a cup down on. So I would agree with putting in luggage racks but would also put in some small selves, I know it wouldn't be possible to fit tables.

 

[skyhigh]

weren’t the 332s rotting underneath and so wonder if any similar considerations on the 333s

The 333 fleet has been going through welding work to remove corrosion - I think it's now finished (or nearly finished), so isn't a consideration.

 

[Sparks807Evo]

The 333 fleet has been going through welding work to remove corrosion - I think it's now finished (or nearly finished), so isn't a consideration.

Thank you.

Are there problems with the 333s? They are newer than 323s and air conditioned too.

Other than the corrosion issue nothing I know of. Indeed - my only thinking would be that they are looking to try and standardise the fleet as much as they can on the east side now, and then play the long game on the 323s (and rely on spares from the out of use units) until the new fleet is procured and delivered…then possibly 350/2s are retained alongside the CAF and new trains post TRU?

 

[amahy]

The 333s being withdrawn would be a huge step backwards for Northern, in my opinion, they are one of the best Northern units.

 

[Russel]

Northern are trialling them (not in service) on one route. The outcome of the trial is not yet known publicly.

More than one route though, isn't it?

Thought they were trailed on the Stoke route earlier this year, or was that unrelated to the current testing?

 

[ayubdaud]

More than one route though, isn't it?

Thought they were trailed on the Stoke route earlier this year, or was that unrelated to the current testing?

Do 350s fit in the bay at Stoke? The sectional appendix suggests it's 88m but it looks a lot tighter than that, it'd have thought closer to 80m.

 

[Peter0124]

Do 350s fit in the bay at Stoke? The sectional appendix suggests it's 88m but it looks a lot tighter than that, it'd have thought closer to 80m.

4 car 350s are 80m though aren't they?

 

[L+Y]

As a semi-frequent traveller on the Blackpool-Manchester route, I definitely think 1x350 would be a downgrade on 2x323, which are impressive people absorbers. Clearly 1x350 is an upgrade though - so I guess from my perspective it all depends on the ability to run in multiple with SDO.

 

[tfw756rider]

As a semi-frequent traveller on the Blackpool-Manchester route, I definitely think 1x350 would be a downgrade on 2x323, which are impressive people absorbers. Clearly 1x350 is an upgrade though - so I guess from my perspective it all depends on the ability to run in multiple with SDO.

Presumably you mean 2x350 is an upgrade?

 

[L+Y]

Presumably you mean 2x350 is an upgrade?

Whoops- yes!

 

[778]

With regards to this "project" (in the loosest possible term) - a certain pair of Northern Mayors are attempting to drive this forwards, moreso than GBR/DfT.

Good political opportunity to spin here - "new" and fairly nice trains laid up in sidings with no prospects, whilst telling the story that Merseyside and Greater Manchester otherwise continue to get ancient and well worn castoffs from BR days.

Levelling up etc. If that coincides with a ROSCO offering a good financial incentive, moreso the better, especially as the ultimate asset owners of the 323s will not want to sink huge amounts of money in increasingly difficult to maintain rolling stock, particularly the ability to obtain parts.

Bringing "new" trains to Northern may well solve a few issues both politically and mechanically - so long as the timetable isn't (too adversely) affected. No doubt an introduction could even coincide with the run up to an opportune election or bad news day.

I don't think bringing in 17 trains only to get rid of them 2 or 3 years later would be a good political move.

 

[tonywalk]

I have lived adjacent to the MAN-HAD/GLO line for 39 years and been a regular user. I would like to add my obsevations.

Capacity: During rush hour, particularly as Northern don't seem to want to restore the 20 min frequency, we need more seats. This was starkly proved when train was cancelled in late 2024 and the train was that crowded, there were two faintings, one of which made the national media. I was actually stood next to her and managed to somewhat catch her as she dropped.

Stations: Most on the line were build for longer trains anyway. Only the new-builds at Godley Heights and Stalag Flowery Field needed extending and this was done in anticipation of Northern dumping seriously old 319s on us. Thankfully, those hateful things, were too slow.

Refurbished 323s: Some may have seen my comments across the 'net and even getting a letter published in RAIL. The refurbs are such low quality - seats way too hard, windows to dark to see station names, deafening door beepers, seat layout for those of us with a (very) slightly longer leg.

350/2: It looks like a good solution. Offers plenty of extra seats. Good comments about reliability. The only potential question is on performance. Can they maintain the timetable? It would be brilliant if they outperformed the 323s and matched the old 303s which could do a 15 min rush-hour schedule.

I'd've loved to have jumped on the 350/2 they had testing to see what I thought. Hopefully, if Northern are going to acquire them, they will do driver training runs and I can catch one then. Given the timing of this test, they may look to introduce them at the December timetable change.

 

[Snow1964]

350s to displace 323s to displace 331s to replace 333s is what I'd heard (take with a pinch of salt obviously)

A cascade is quite likely, group various types up by area. Simplifies maintenance and training.

There are bits of electrification (Bolton etc) coming on stream, and any new build is unlikely to be in service until 2029 (later still if a completely new design is chosen).

Having a few extra units is much better for passengers than situation around say Bristol where short formed trains or cancellations due to lack of serviceable trains happens multiple times every day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

350/2: It looks like a good solution. Offers plenty of extra seats. Good comments about reliability. The only potential question is on performance. Can they maintain the timetable? It would be brilliant if they outperformed the 323s and matched the old 303s which could do a 15 min rush-hour schedule.

They're very fast off the mark (full power would probably knock you over) but door operation is slow (same as 185s) so time could be lost that way.

 

[Class 466]

As a semi-frequent traveller on the Blackpool-Manchester route, I definitely think 1x350 would be a downgrade on 2x323, which are impressive people absorbers. Clearly 1x350 is an upgrade though - so I guess from my perspective it all depends on the ability to run in multiple with SDO.

You couldn’t run 8 cars on that route without potentially breaking the Castlefield corridor timetable around Oxford Road.

 

[Fokx]

They're very fast off the mark (full power would probably knock you over) but door operation is slow (same as 185s) so time could be lost that way.

Door operation of a 185 or 350/2 is faster than the class 331 which make appearances on the same services, It wouldn't be an issue

There's also the added benefit for Northern of a GOP door panel at every door and cab for guard revenue duties and door/dispatch responsibilities

 

[Class15]

You couldn’t run 8 cars on that route without potentially breaking the Castlefield corridor timetable around Oxford Road.

Why exactly? I would have thought that 8-car trains would have less overcrowding and shorter dwell times, helping performance?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Length issue at Oxford Road?

 

[Class 466]

Length issue at Oxford Road?

Why exactly? I would have thought that 8-car trains would have less overcrowding and shorter dwell times, helping performance?

You’d overhang the platforms and foul junctions on either side, therefore reducing capacity - until it gets rebuilt (if it does) you’re limited to 6 cars/138m calling there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You’d overhang the platforms and foul junctions on either side, therefore reducing capacity - until it gets rebuilt (if it does) you’re limited to 6 cars/138m calling there.

I suppose one option is not to call there when you need to run double sets, but then that messes with the pattern. Probably better just to use them on routes without that constraint, e.g. Victoria or Liverpool rather than Castlefield ones, or those where 4x20m will be enough.

 

[Lanley]

I suppose one option is not to call there when you need to run double sets, but then that messes with the pattern. Probably better just to use them on routes without that constraint, e.g. Victoria or Liverpool rather than Castlefield ones, or those where 4x20m will be enough.

Is Oxford Road operated as if it were a two platform station currently? I.e. one westbound train and one eastbound train at a time in the through platforms. The issue was overcome when TPE used 8-car Cl350s, so the solution likely exists already.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is Oxford Road operated as if it were a two platform station currently? I.e. one westbound train and one eastbound train at a time in the through platforms. The issue was overcome when TPE used 8-car Cl350s, so the solution likely exists already.

Did TPE call 8.350 there or did they just drop the stop on services diagrammed 8 car?

It's largely run as a two through platform station using only 2 and 4. 3 is used occasionally (usually if a train is "stuck" waiting for something e.g. crew, a failure or police), and 1 hardly ever as it has no lift. Not being able to use 1 or 3 for a couple of minutes twice an hour would probably not be a big problem.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

It's largely run as a two through platform station using only 2 and 4. 3 is used occasionally (usually if a train is "stuck" waiting for something e.g. crew, a failure or police), and 1 hardly ever as it has no lift. Not being able to use 1 or 3 for a couple of minutes twice an hour would probably not be a big problem.

However if an overlength train was in P4, it might block trains from entering/leaving P5.
In addition, SDO at such a busy interchange would probably end in quite a bit of overcarrying (which isn't too much of a problem towards Piccadilly, but next stop Eccles or Salford Crescent would be much more inconvenient.

 

[Bletchleyite]

However if an overlength train was in P4, it might block trains from entering/leaving P5.

It would obviously depend on the timetabling as to how much of an issue that was.

In addition, SDO at such a busy interchange would probably end in quite a bit of overcarrying (which isn't too much of a problem towards Piccadilly, but next stop Eccles or Salford Crescent would be much more inconvenient.

The Blackpools call at Deansgate.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

The Blackpools call at Deansgate.

I'm sure there used to be some services that didn't stop there, but that doesn't seem to be the case any more (outside some first/last trains)

 

[CJ]

TPE did indeed call at Manchester Oxford Road with 2 x 350s at 8 car length, it just about fit the platforms (2 and 4).

One other thing to mention as well, there was also another previous test train that ran with a Class 350/2 between Manchester Airport and Liverpool Lime Street via Newton-le-Willows, I remember seeing it on RealTimeTrains and was done overnight, happened about a year or so ago. The unit went back to Crewe after the test.

 

[mattpharrison]

Just chiming in here on the Hadfield run - alongside the ROSCO, Northern is supporting exploratory work which is taking place to determine whether Class 350 trains would be suitable for deployment on routes in the north of England. At present there is no commitment from Northern to operate Class 350 trains in the future.

Hope this helps to clear things up.