50mph = Slowest Intercity journey? - guess where...

[tornado]

The journey from Manchester to Leeds takes 52 minutes (best case where it just stops at Huddersfield) to do ~44 miles.

With an average speed of 50mph this must be the slowest journey between two major cities in the uk.

My question is why so slow? Is there not some form of tilting train that could improve this?

 

[LexyBoy]

My question is why so slow?

It's not a route to London, so it doesn't matter

I bet there's some slower examples - Bristol to Southampton is ~40mph (using the most direct driving distance).

 

[AlterEgo]

My question is why so slow? Is there not some form of tilting train that could improve this?

Curves aren't the only problem; the Transpennine route is extremely hilly, hence the use of powerful Class 185s.

 

[NSEFAN]

It could be line capacity issues. The line can only be as fast as the slowest train.

Southampton-Bristol Temple Meads is about 75 miles in approx 1h40, making the journey about 45mph on average. According the Google maps, taking a car on a similar route takes around 2 hours, so the train is still quicker for this route. Plus, if you get a cheap advance ticket, it can be quite good value!

 

[AlterEgo]

It could be line capacity issues. The line can only be as fast as the slowest train.

Not if the services are spaced properly to allow for slower services...

 

[LexyBoy]

Not if the services are spaced properly to allow for slower services...

Which can't be done if the line is running near capacity...


Seriously though, a few passing loops / separated lines for platforms to allow for faster trains to pass would do wonders for mixed-use lines like this.

 

[Woody]

It's not a route to London, so it doesn't matter

I bet there's some slower examples - Bristol to Southampton is ~40mph (using the most direct driving distance).

For main line intercity routes to London the Plymouth to Exeter line must rank one of the slowest at 52 miles in about I hour average speed a mere 52 mph even on todays HSTs.Little change since the "warship" and "Western" days of the 1960s.

 

[tornado]

It's not actually the hilly section that's the problem. It does this (reasonably) quickly, although I think electrification would help here with acceleration...

The real bottleneck is coming in from around stalybridge into manc picc (~10 miles). The train really slows to a crawl here despite the line being flat and fairly straight. It seems to do this even late at night with few other trains around, which seems odd?

 

[The Snap]

Manchester to Sheffield is similar. That is 40 miles and takes between 48 and 52 minutes...

 

[WelshBluebird]

And Cardiff to Swansea. Around 40 miles, and takes about an hour.

 

[142094]

It seems to do this even late at night with few other trains around, which seems odd?

That curve coming into Guide Bridge is very tight - any faster and the train would probably come off.

 

[Philip Elliott]

Leicester - Birmingham: 41 miles in 50 minutes

 

[tbtc]

Manchester to Sheffield is similar. That is 40 miles and takes between 48 and 52 minutes...

Yup, and with only two services an hour (ignoring the Northern Pacer which takes around an hour and a half), with two coach trains forming a number of TPE/EMT services (170s or 158s).

At least Manchester - Leeds gets four "fast" trains an hour (generally three coach 185s). The Guide Bridge delays should be resolved once the Leeds service is diverted to Manchester Victoria instead, which should mean a faster journey.

 

[WestCoast]

Yup, and with only two services an hour (ignoring the Northern Pacer which takes around an hour and a half), with two coach trains forming a number of TPE/EMT services (170s or 158s).

The Northern stopper is around 1h18. I have used it in the past because of overcrowding on the EMT and TPE services.

Manchester - Preston (InterCity if we are going by the definition some posters are using) is 31 miles and takes between 39mins and 55mins (with the majority of services being circa. 47mins). I personally believe intercity should strictly refer to the style of train service, regardless of the places involved. TPE/EMT services are InterRegional in my definition.

 

[tbtc]

I personally believe intercity should strictly refer to the style of train service, regardless of the places involved. TPE/EMT services are InterRegional in my definition

I'd agree with you there.

For example, Liverpool and Chester are both cities, but I wouldn't call the Merseyrail 507/508 an Intercity service!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The real bottleneck is coming in from around Stalybridge into Manc Picc (~10 miles). The train really slows to a crawl here despite the line being flat and fairly straight. It seems to do this even late at night with few other trains around, which seems odd?

Your point is well made here and I would add that the section where Guide Bridge is reached must have one of the tighest radius line turnout on any Inter-City route.

Perhaps the Ordsall Chord project, when operational, will give a better run from Manchester Victoria to Stalybridge.

 

[ab]

Portsmouth to Southampton is about 19 miles yet the quickest journey is 45 minutes - thats about 25mph average speed! That makes Manchester to Leeds look positively supersonic!!

 

[adamp]

How about Manchester - Leeds via BRIGHOUSE....if you thought 50 minutes was slow, that takes a whopping 1hr 30!!!!!!

 

[185]

The journey from Manchester to Leeds takes 52 minutes (best case where it just stops at Huddersfield) to do ~44 miles.

With an average speed of 50mph this must be the slowest journey between two major cities in the uk.

My question is why so slow? Is there not some form of tilting train that could improve this?

It's been done in 38 minutes sort-of empty stock in a 158.

Train was late leaving picc due to a driver's obligatory PNB break. All stops were taken out, and we did it in the much shorter time due to it being evening. That said, on a map you wil see unlike a straight 44mile long line, the actual track is all over the place around the mountains, wiggling it's way through Stalybridge, Huddersfield, Mirfield, and Morley.

 

[Bevan Price]

Liverpool to Manchester (34½ miles via Warrington Central) with most "fast" trains taking 43 to 47 minutes is even worse (up to 50 minutes in reverse direction due to "charter time" additions to schedules. Main problem is fitting paths between stopping trains.
And to think, Liverpool to Manchester Exchange used to take 36 minutes in 1961, using Trans Pennine (Class 124) units limited to 70 mph. Such is progress....

 

[FLHH East Anglia]

When the Harwich Parkston Quay-Manchester Piccadilly & return boat train used to run i think it averaged below 45mph.

 

[185]

Liverpool to Manchester (34½ miles via Warrington Central) with most "fast" trains taking 43 to 47 minutes is even worse (up to 50 minutes in reverse direction due to "charter time" additions to schedules. Main problem is fitting paths between stopping trains.
And to think, Liverpool to Manchester Exchange used to take 36 minutes in 1961, using Trans Pennine (Class 124) units limited to 70 mph. Such is progress....

Done Liverpool to Deansgate in 29 minutes on the empties via Chat Moss. Train did almost roll over at Huyton, to be fair.

 

[starrymarkb]

Truro to Plymouth?

 

[RyanB]

Glasgow Queen Street to Edinburgh Waverly averages about 60mph over the whole route, takes just under an hour to do about 55 miles. This is via Falkirk High, Glasgow to Edinburgh via Airdrie-Bathgate takes around 90 minutes, but it's a stopper. Would love to see an express service on that route stopping at maybe an handful of stations, would get close to the times on the Falkirk High line. Central to Waverly via Shotts takes about 75 mins on average.

Once the Falkirk High Line is electrified though, ScotRail expects to make the journey in a dizzying 30 mins. Gets me thinking what kind of rolling stock they would use, more 380s?

 

[Bevan Price]

Done Liverpool to Deansgate in 29 minutes on the empties via Chat Moss. Train did almost roll over at Huyton, to be fair.

Presumably at a time when there were no local services running ? (between midnight and about 05:00 )

 

[stanley T]

It's not actually the hilly section that's the problem. It does this (reasonably) quickly, although I think electrification would help here with acceleration...

The real bottleneck is coming in from around stalybridge into manc picc (~10 miles). The train really slows to a crawl here despite the line being flat and fairly straight. It seems to do this even late at night with few other trains around, which seems odd?

which is why it would make sense to divert at least some the TPE trains via Victoria; indeed and ease pressure on the Standedge route by sending some via Rochdale, Halifax and Bradford : a slower route, but serving different destinations.

As for Sheffield, one is amazed that no decent motorway or dual carriageway was built between it and Manchester. Indeed the disused Woodhead tunnels could have done instead of filling them with electric cables ( I realise that rail-to-road conversion does not go down well on this forum...)

Surely Exeter - Penzance is the slowest intercity service (barely 40 mph). If the South west is not to be electrified (and it is difficult to make a case) then tilting diesels along Super Voyager lines make sense. But then HSE would insist on expensive and unnecessary balises, although the rest of Europe manages without them.

 

[Oswyntail]

I'd agree with you there.

For example, Liverpool and Chester are both cities, but I wouldn't call the Merseyrail 507/508 an Intercity service!

Wandering off topic, but this reminds me of the station announcer at Peckham Rye in 1979 who often announced the "Inter City service from London Bridge to London Victoria", and put immense expression into each station en route.

 

[185]

Presumably at a time when there were no local services running ? (between midnight and about 05:00 )

Almost.... 2053 off Lime St

 

[150222]

it would be a good idea to send some tpe trans via the calder valley for reasons afformentioned and the drivers already sign the route for diversions.

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

As for Sheffield, one is amazed that no decent motorway or dual carriageway was built between it and Manchester. Indeed the disused Woodhead tunnels could have done instead of filling them with electric cables ( I realise that rail-to-road conversion does not go down well on this forum...)

There always was supposed to be one, if you drive along it you will notice how the carriageway sort of ends in what feel like slip roads, with a main carriageway to Sheffield clearly missing through the middle. But of course money and political pressure got in the way, not helped by the expensive and techincal nature of the route. Going through the Peak District was never going to be popular either.

An interesting(really!) website on the motorways that were never built http://http://pathetic.org.uk/unbuilt/m67_manchester_to_sheffield_motorway/ ... however, I suspect if the grand plans had happened, then the railways outside of London would not have survived, or at least been heavily truncated.