Car damage by level crossing barriers (27/07)

[SouthStand]

Richard is an experienced driving instructor and his videos have helped many people (myself included) pass their driving test.

Gave up watching that video after less than 2 minutes. The first two real life situations he demonstrated were ridiculous, on his part. He held back about 3 times further than he needed to in the first example. The second example, the roundabout, he didn't need to dramatically stamp on the brakes and almost get rear-ended, he just needed to ease off and approach very slightly slower.

The Highway Code and the law versus some random bloke on YouTube!!!

Thanks for the reminder why, apart from music, I never watch YouTube videos.

 

[Donny Dave]

How many level crossings. do you know that have such a poor line of sight, that as a driver you can't see if the road ahead is clear? I believe it's a requirement (could be wrong so don't shoot me), that level crossings have to have clear lines of sight specifically for this reason.

Kiveton Park Station. Manor Road has a level crossing at the end of the platform, with a t-junction immediately after the crossing.

 

[Falcon1200]

If the barriers for whatever reason are delayed between starting to lower and the usual time of achieving down detection, an alarm will sound which needs acknowledgement.

If the barriers are hit or bent in a way which dislodges them then again the alarm sounds which prevents clearing signals, and if this is after the signals are cleared already, in most cases they will revert to danger automatically.

Thanks for the info.

So, presumably in the situation described in Post #1, the barriers were not sufficiently damaged to prevent normal operation, and the car was observed on CCTV to have moved off the crossing, so the signals could therefore be cleared.

 

[sportzbar]

Kiveton Park Station. Manor Road has a level crossing at the end of the platform, with a t-junction immediately after the crossing.

So one level crossing then that any vehicle driver obeying the highway code will be forced to drive at a speed that requires them to see the road ahead of the level crossing is clear. Therefore if driving sufficiently and correctly there will be a clear line of sight as required....

 

[Tomnick]

I used to operate a CCTV crossing where there was a right turn into industrial premises immediately after the crossing, combined with not brilliant sighting of oncoming traffic and a fairly uneven crossing surface meaning low approach speeds for lorries. All that together meant that lorries would often enter the crossing, to then turn right, with no oncoming traffic visible, but by the time they were actually ready to make their turn, there'd be cars coming which meant they'd have to wait, blocking the crossing. No auto-lower so, whilst I didn't always monitor the whole lowering process, I would check that the crossing wasn't obstructed like that before starting the lowering sequence – you had to put the picture on before you could start the sequence anyway.

 

[Nippy]

We have the same issue at Mitre Bridge crossing. Vehicles regularly block the crossing.

 

[edwin_m]

Kiveton Park Station. Manor Road has a level crossing at the end of the platform, with a t-junction immediately after the crossing.

Also a narrow bridge and a turning on the other side of the crossing, so a risk of being stuck on it in that direction too. This has a controlling signal box immediately alongside, and I'd expect (but I don't know) the signaller to ensure there's no road traffic approaching before starting the sequence, and also to check again between lowering the entrance barriers and lowering the exit barriers.

 

[MCR247]

A mate is waiting at a CCTV locally monitored crossing, full barriers. There are two cars ahead of him. The train passes and the barriers open.

Cars start to move across then one up ahead (we’ll clear of crossing) stops & blocks road for unknown reason, my mate is straddling the exit barriers, car behind him on the crossing.

It’s only been about 10 seconds and the lights & sirens start again. No way forward, so the car behind reverses off the crossing and my mate does the same, but as he’s passing under the entrance barriers they hit the roof of his car and scratch down roof/windscreen/bonnet.

Barriers complete closure and train passes a couple of minutes later.

Who fools the bill for the damage??

I’m sorry but I don’t have much sympathy for your friend and I’d hope NR/the insurer dismiss him pretty quickly

 

[AM9]

Part of the problem is drivers who when they see the amber light, close up behind the vehicle in front to squeeze through, just as they would at conventional traffic lights. The rule for level crossings is that amber means stop at the line unless they have already crossed it, or are so close that it would mean crossing the line before the vehicle actually stopped, - thereby blocking the crossing. Eagerness to cross the track before the barriers fall causes drivers to break this rule, - not some misplaced concern for the overall delay of all traffic. Drivers closing the gap to an unsafe distance for the speed is what causes these situations, and it's unreasonable to put the driver who does obey light signals in the position that they must break them to avoid a rear end collision, which may put them in more danger.
Maybe there should be an automatic fine (with points) for any driver who passes the flashing reds having had the amber warning. Running a (highway as opposed to railway) camera from when the ambers start to when the gates are fully down would make prosecutions worthwhile. A rear end collision in these circumstances should also attract a fine and points.

 

[Belperpete]

Also a narrow bridge and a turning on the other side of the crossing, so a risk of being stuck on it in that direction too. This has a controlling signal box immediately alongside, and I'd expect (but I don't know) the signaller to ensure there's no road traffic approaching before starting the sequence, and also to check again between lowering the entrance barriers and lowering the exit barriers.

I am not aware of any CCTV crossing where the signaller has separate control of the entrance and exit barriers. As a previous poster noted, the usual arrangement is that the signaller briefly presses the LOWER button and then everything happens automatically until all the barriers are down, when the signaller presses CROSSING CLEAR to allow the signal to clear. Where auto lower is provided, the signaller doesn't even press the lower button, just Crossing Clear. The signaller does have a STOP button that he can use to stop the sequence.

 

[Djgr]

Richard is an experienced driving instructor and his videos have helped many people (myself included) pass their driving test.

For the sake of other motorists, I hope that all of your driver training wasn't taken online.

 

[norbitonflyer]

At 30mph, the recommended two-second separation is over 50m, so normal prudent driving would ensure enough spacing to make this unnecessary for just about every level crossing.

At many level crossing the actual speeds are much lower, and separation likewise. Manor Road (North Sheen) the speed limit (rarely acheived) is 20mph, and given that there is often a queue beyond for the A316 roundabout, not to mention the right turn into Sainsburys car park, actual speeds are much lower and traffic almost nose to tail. I will always pause to give a bit more space behind the car in front, as I know how often the barriers come down, but many don't.

 

[Deepgreen]

For what it's worth I never cross (driving) a level crossing unless there is more than ample space beyond. Saving one or two seconds is far from worth it if stuff like this thread's topic occurs. However, there are vast numbers of drivers out there who think that they can get out of any situation (not referring to anyone mentioned in this thread) and who therefore take stupid risks/don't think ahead.

 

[styles]

At many level crossing the actual speeds are much lower, and separation likewise. Manor Road (North Sheen) the speed limit (rarely acheived) is 20mph, and given that there is often a queue beyond for the A316 roundabout, not to mention the right turn into Sainsburys car park, actual speeds are much lower and traffic almost nose to tail. I will always pause to give a bit more space behind the car in front, as I know how often the barriers come down, but many don't.

At lower speeds it should have even less of an impact as the stopping distances are decreased and the average speed is lower.

In stop-start congestion there's really no excuse to end up stuck on a level crossing when driving a standard non-towing car/van/motorbike (unless the car in front reverses to remove the gap you had the opposite side of the crossing or something wild).

 

[Macwomble]

At 30mph, the recommended two-second separation is over 50m, so normal prudent driving would ensure enough spacing to make this unnecessary for just about every level crossing.

Errrrrr....30mph is 44 feet per second or 88 feet (roughly 30 yards) in 2 seconds....so the gap is, actually, a lot closer than you suggest.

 

[markle]

Kiveton Park Station. Manor Road has a level crossing at the end of the platform, with a t-junction immediately after the crossing.

That is a terrible looking junction, but could easily be resolved by changing the road markings so that traffic exiting Manor Road has priority and there's give way / stop lines in both directions on Dog Kennels Lane.

There's a similar arrangement at the West Barnes Lane crossing north of Motspur Park station, albeit with a bit more road space.

 

[styles]

That is a terrible looking junction, but could easily be resolved by changing the road markings so that traffic exiting Manor Road has priority and there's give way / stop lines in both directions on Dog Kennels Lane.

There's a similar arrangement at the West Barnes Lane crossing north of Motspur Park station, albeit with a bit more road space.

I feel like sometimes we exaggerated as drivers in the UK.

The UK has some of the safest roads in the world, despite our frustration with other drivers.

'terrible looking' for a crossing with no recorded collisions in decades, and that's part of a reasonably frequent bus route.

I mean sure I think it could be improved, and it's not how I'd design it, but it hardly seems terrible, and the data suggests it isn't that bad.

 

[edwin_m]

'terrible looking' for a crossing with no recorded collisions in decades, and that's part of a reasonably frequent bus route.

I mean sure I think it could be improved, and it's not how I'd design it, but it hardly seems terrible, and the data suggests it isn't that bad.

MCB crossings in general have a good safety record, probably because they are positively confirmed clear before the train can approach, and the full barriers effectively eliminate non-compliance by road users once they are down.

 

[Annetts key]

Good point. It would be helpful if the OP could name the crossing involved?

Question for the signalling experts; Can the situation as described below result in the barrier lowering sequence being completed without serious damage to the barrier, and with no alarm being generated and the Signaller therefore being unaware anything untoward had occurred?

Yes.

If the barriers for whatever reason are delayed between starting to lower and the usual time of achieving down detection, an alarm will sound which needs acknowledgement.

Modern installations have a timer, the entrance barriers must have completed lowering (and be detected as fully lowered) before the timer "times-out". Same with the exit barriers.

However, some older crossing do not have these timers.

If the barriers are hit or bent in a way which dislodges them then again the alarm sounds which prevents clearing signals, and if this is after the signals are cleared already, in most cases they will revert to danger automatically.

Only if the damage is enough to cause the barrier integrity device to detect a problem. So if the main boom is uneffected, but the skirt is mangled, no alarm will sound in the controlling signal box, and the signals will not be held or put back to red.

For further info, barriers are attached to the mechanism with bolts designed to fracture if the barriers are crashed into, so the barrier immediately detaches rather than bends or breaks, to allow it to be simply reattached by technicians. This of course breaks the circular and creates an alarm. The ‘usual’ impact they are designed for is horizontal from moving vehicles. In general barriers are strong enough for someone to hold on to them as they go up without breaking.

Not true for all types. For example, BR WR barriers are attached to the vertical post with large U-bolts or with long bolts clamping two semi-circular clamps to the round post. As the fibreglass booms are rather strong, in most cases, the boom will rotate on the post before the boom breaks. If the initial impact was not noticed by the signaller or other railway staff, then either the gap at the tip of the barrier (when compared to the adjacent barrier) gets noticed or the skirt getting caught in the cage that keeps the public from the danger of getting caught in the mechanism gets noticed and reported.

For BR Spec 843 Mk2 barriers, if hit hard enough, the boom will break or be damaged, meaning a new boom is needed.

Most need manual operation to begin, but it is the process of starting the sequence that prompts people to clear the crossing. The siren and lights are the trigger to stop people entering, then the entry barriers close fully, then - after a set specific time which varies for each crossing to allow all vehicles and pedestrians to be fully clear - the exit barriers lower. On most crossings this all happens from a single button push, sometimes separate pushes are needed for different stages, or sometimes need the button holding throughout, all depending on risk assessments when designed.

Of all the types I have worked on, all MCB, MCB-CCTV and TMOB require either one push of the lower button to start the sequence (modern crossings) or require the lower button to be held until all barriers have fully lowered (older designs). The amber lights will show, then a timer runs. After this short delay the red lights flash on the wig-wags. There is then another short delay. Then the entrance barriers lower. The exit barriers commence lowering immediately after the entrance barriers have been detected as fully lowered. If the distance across between each side of the crossing is longer than normal, there may well be a time delay before the exit barriers commence lowering.

Of the types I have worked on, there are no separate buttons or controls to continue the next stage. However, if the crossing is protected by signals, these signals will not clear until the crossing clear button is pressed. There are however raise and stop buttons.

If signallers waited until crossings were clear before starting sequences, they could be waiting hours.

Yes, exactly. Road users seem to think that they are entitled to stop on a crossing because there is asphalt there. Or that it's okay to ignore the road traffic signals. So often the signaller has to start the sequence even though the crossing is not clear. And of course, at an automatic crossing, there is no signaller to check if the crossing is clear.

All public crossings (that is crossings on roads where there is a public right of way) have to comply with a level crossing order, which is a legal document.

 

[Belperpete]

There are a handful of town centre crossings that are extremely busy with pedestrians at certain times, where watching the barriers fall and rise is advisable as otherwise it's all too easy to trap a pedestrian on lower, or have one get entangled in the barrier on raise after leaning on the boom or tying their dog lead or child restraint to it. Poole, Paignton North, Lincoln spring to mind.

With most CCTV crossings, the CCTV picture only turns on when the crossing needs to be closed. The picture then usually turns off automatically as soon as the crossing is closed and the signaller presses CROSSING CLEAR. So the signaller doesn't usually see the train pass over, or the barriers rise. The crossing reopens automatically after the train, with no signaller action.