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modernrail

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I am sure this must have been raised before but apologies, I can’t find the thread.

If you buy a split ticket and it pops out as two advance fares that match with 2 connecting services, are you bound to buy a new fare on the second service if the first one is delayed meaning you have to catch a later timed version of second one.
 
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Mcr Warrior

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@modernrail. Presume the minimum connection time would be respected at the station where the first advance ticket ends and the second starts, if everything had run correctly?
 

jfollows

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@modernrail. Presume the minimum connection time would be respected at the station where the first advance ticket ends and the second starts, if everything had run correctly?
If you buy split tickets in a single transaction, such as this site’s sales, yes, the minimum connection time will be respected. If you buy split tickets separately then it’s down to you to get it right. It also means that the entire journey is eligible for Delay Repay.
 

modernrail

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If you buy split tickets in a single transaction, such as this site’s sales, yes, the minimum connection time will be respected. If you buy split tickets separately then it’s down to you to get it right. It also means that the entire journey is eligible for Delay Repay.
Yes I am thinking of where you buy the tickets on this site or trainline in a single transaction.

Who protects you, the railway T&Cs or the seller?

Are you also protected if you:

-Buy two separate advance tickets. Let’s say Milton Keynes to Crewe and Crewe to Wigan, respecting the min time to change, and miss the Wigan service because the train to Crewe was delayed.

- use an Oyster card or other non-advance ticket from say Herne Hill to St P and then an advance from KX to York and the Herne Hill service is delayed. I ask this one specifically because I have missed multiple LNER trains because Thameslink was down and LNER have told me I need to buy a new ticket. I can’t work out if the better thing to do is buy a through ticket (more expensive than contactless Herne Hill to St P and a separate LNER ticket) or to stick what I have been doing after being stung multiple times, which is never buy an advance fare if relying on public transport to get to KX.
 

jfollows

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Yes, if you buy separate split tickets and respect the minimum connection time, that’s fine, it just means you have to work it out, cross-London can seem complicated.

National Rail advance tickets terms and conditions, see https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/tick...tickets/advance-tickets-terms-and-conditions/

5.2 If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

LNER: https://support.lner.co.uk/s/articl...-ticket-and-you-miss-your-connection-due-to-d
If you missed your LNER connection due to a non-LNER service being delayed or cancelled, you’ll be allowed to travel on the next available LNER service provided it follows the route and operator conditions of your original Advance ticket.
You were told rubbish at King’s Cross, presumably the usual problem of staff making up the rules themselves.
You need to allow 31 minutes between arrival into Saint Pancras and departure from King’s Cross.
 
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modernrail

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Yes, if you buy separate split tickets and respect the minimum connection time, that’s fine, it just means you have to work it out, cross-London can seem complicated.

National Rail advance tickets terms and conditions, see https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/tick...tickets/advance-tickets-terms-and-conditions/
Is the relevant clause: 5.2 If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey?

If so, that seems super vague to me. I read that as meaning if you have commenced your journey named on your advance ticket rather than allowing you to argue, for instance, your inbound Thameslink (paid for on contactless) was late and so you can catch the next train after your booked train (or later if Thameslink was down for a long time) at KX.

If it does allow that, the wording is surely so vague it also does not preclude you claiming you have missed the train for which you have an advance ticket for any other reason. Fur instance the bus was late or you were stuck in traffic in a taxi. The wording does not specify which form of transport delays might have occurred on.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Yes, if you buy separate split tickets and respect the minimum connection time, that’s fine, it just means you have to work it out, cross-London can seem complicated.

National Rail advance tickets terms and conditions, see https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/tick...tickets/advance-tickets-terms-and-conditions/



== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

LNER: https://support.lner.co.uk/s/articl...-ticket-and-you-miss-your-connection-due-to-d

You were told rubbish at King’s Cross, presumably the usual problem of staff making up the rules themselves.
You need to allow 31 minutes between arrival into Saint Pancras and departure from King’s Cross.
This is a bit mind blowing to be honest. Literally hundreds of pounds down the drain. I am a very frequent traveller, spend thousands a year on tickets and had assumed I knew the ticketing system fairly well. The amount of stress I have had on Thameslink platforms when I have been due to catch an LNER or Avanti service!

One LNER person said to me ‘well how am I meant to know how you got to the station’. I assumed that it was just a case of different TOC, different ticket, so I had to ticket TOC off.

On the Avanti example, is this where it breaks down? There I would be walking from St P to Euston. Does that have a ‘min transfer time’ .

Does it also break down if you are arriving by tube/bus? If the Victoria line is down, am I entitled to get a later train than the one named on my advance?
 
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jfollows

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Saint Pancras to Euston is 40 minutes for most of the day, 45 minutes until 7am, https://www.brtimes.com/!board?stn=STP&show=info&date=20250727

Cross London times assume tube during its operating hours. These are times for today, Sunday. Other days is 35 minutes upwards, depending on time of day.

Obviously Saint Pancras to Euston many of us would walk, that doesn’t change the equation.
 
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modernrail

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Thanks! This continues to be mind blowing!

So what does one do when you face the inevitable refusal at the gateline at Euston or KX. Are you meant to go to the ticket office first? How do they work out how you were delayed, check your contactless card and then the recent past running of the tube.

I can’t tell you how much stress this will remove for a northerner living in south london with multiple clients up north as well.
 

Benjwri

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So what does one do when you face the inevitable refusal at the gateline at Euston or KX. Are you meant to go to the ticket office first? How do they work out how you were delayed, check your contactless card and then the recent past running of the tube.
The gateline should let you through, but if not I would try the ticket office. Obviously if as in your first example it’s a National Rail train delayed then it is clear how to display that occurred.

The tube is more complicated, your right to take the next train is only guaranteed if it’s a cross London trip, between two national rail trips. If it is its fairly unlikely the tube itself would cause a long enough delay without a disruption notice being issued, as the Minimum Connection Times are generous.

If LNER staff refuse to allow travel on the next service you should buy a ticket on the next service, retain receipts and claim the cost back from LNER.
 

modernrail

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The gateline should let you through, but if not I would try the ticket office. Obviously if as in your first example it’s a National Rail train delayed then it is clear how to display that occurred.

The tube is more complicated, your right to take the next train is only guaranteed if it’s a cross London trip, between two national rail trips. If it is its fairly unlikely the tube itself would cause a long enough delay without a disruption notice being issued, as the Minimum Connection Times are generous.

If LNER staff refuse to allow travel on the next service you should buy a ticket on the next service, retain receipts and claim the cost back from LNER.
At okay, good to know, thanks.

Yes agreed it is rare that the tube has delays bad enough to cause a problem. Thameslink on other hand is like Russian roulette but is my logical route from Herne Hill. The back up is Herne Hill to london Victoria the Victoria Lime to Euston/KX but you can easily still miss the advance ticket service doing it that way.

It also sounds like they might argue I haven’t been delayed if I go via Victoria as none of those services have actually been delayed, just the original Thameslink service that was cancelled etc, so perhaps just better to be properly delayed via Thameslink and still have the tap in, tap out for that route.

Complicated!!
 

DeverseSam

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Seems to be that Herne Hill - Peterborough - York is the cheapest way, probably on a through ticket.

Also you’d already be within the station at Peterborough so no gateline problems.
 

Hadders

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If so, that seems super vague to me. I read that as meaning if you have commenced your journey named on your advance ticket rather than allowing you to argue, for instance, your inbound Thameslink (paid for on contactless) was late and so you can catch the next train after your booked train (or later if Thameslink was down for a long time) at KX.
You may use two or more tickets to make a journey.
 

Watershed

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If the disruption isn't known about at the time you touch in, and you have allowed enough time to change trains at St Pancras/Kings Cross, then you are absolutely entitled to travel on the next service compatible with your Advance ticket's operator or route restrictions.

This is a basic principle of split ticketing; multiple tickets can be used to make one journey. Contactless counts as a ticket under the NRCoT hence it can be used as part of a split ticketed journey.

The bigger issue arises where disruption is already known about (e.g. your intended train has already been cancelled) by the time you touch in, or if you see that there's disruption and therefore don't go to the station and touch in until the next train. The scheduled timings of that next train would generally not meet the minimum connection time.

Therefore, LNER etc. might argue that you didn't have a valid itinerary because you knew the connection would be invalid (or impossible) at the time you touched in - which could be regarded as the point when you 'bought' the ticket.

Having a pre-purchased ticket avoids all of this risk, which is why I sometimes buy a paper ticket in advance for journeys where using Oyster or contactless would be cheaper - if guaranteeing a certain contractual/planned arrival time is crucial (e.g. for making a flight).

In practical terms, you can show your Oyster or contactless journey history on the TfL Go app if you register your card. There's a delay of about 10-20 minutes before tap data makes it to the app but given the journey time from Herne Hill to any London terminus, this shouldn't be a major issue. That should be accepted by staff as evidence of your ticket from Herne Hill, although the above considerations still apply.
 

modernrail

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Thanks Watershed, that is really helpful.

Is it possible to buy a paper ticket at the contactless fare somehow or do you chose to accept the cost premium of a paper ticket to get rid of the risk?

Do you buy a through ticket for the whole journey or is it still two tickets with the first is an untimed ticket (as I don’t think you can buy one for a designate service Herne Hill to St P) but that you can argue was bought in advance of the disruption?

I have always thought this is a problem with contactless. It is not the passengers fault if a service evaporates or is badly delayed between the time they look it up and get to the station. One thing I have started doing, where I have had to buy an advance from KX because otherwise it is the anytime fare which I just cannot afford, is looking it up on the journey planner the night before and taking a screenshot, ready to argue it was a train on time when I checked and I should be entitled to rely on that information. This feels particularly important on Thameslink where services frequently do evaporate in the 15 mins it takes me to walk to the station.

One of the reasons this is so important to me is that I run my own small business and often need to be in York, Newcastle or Liverpool. I cannot charge the clients for the fare and the business absolutely cannot afford anytime fares. Some advance fares are doable in peak times although availability seems to have dried up recently (I have my suspicions as to why). I cannot afford to annoy a client by missing a train due to Thameslink and then saying to the client I cannot afford to get the next one, it just looks rubbish and unprofessional.

That is one of the reasons I am so exercised on here about both Anytime fares, the restrictions on Advance fares and LNER’s trials. I use trains as transport for work. Hopefully I am generating tax revenue. The need for meetings pops up on quite short notice a lot. The mood music on here sometimes seems to be that those travelling last minute for work can suck up whatever the cost is. I absolutely cannot. The result now is I only arrange meetings in person where I know I can travel on an off peak ticket. That caps the fare at something at least predictable. It is still not cheap. Maybe 40% + of what I can charge that client for that day’s work. In reality that means I avoid in person meeting requests like the plague now - but it is not a good look with clients.

Thameslink is so bad that I have just stopped risking peak advances at all for the last couple of years. At least this knowledge puts them back in play.

It is a real shame the wording of the actual T&C is vague drivel. It should be completely accurate on this really important point.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Yes, if you buy separate split tickets and respect the minimum connection time, that’s fine, it just means you have to work it out, cross-London can seem complicated.

National Rail advance tickets terms and conditions, see https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/tick...tickets/advance-tickets-terms-and-conditions/



== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

LNER: https://support.lner.co.uk/s/articl...-ticket-and-you-miss-your-connection-due-to-d

You were told rubbish at King’s Cross, presumably the usual problem of staff making up the rules themselves.
You need to allow 31 minutes between arrival into Saint Pancras and departure from King’s Cross.
I have just checked a random journey between Herne Hill and KX bought as a through ticket, as I am starting to think I just do this unless there is a big cost penalty (which sometimes there is for reasons I can never fathom). The journey I checked only allows 27 minutes rule to change. I assume where LNER offers this (which is less than the 31 mins actual min change) it is bound to honour it.

LNER also claims this service has a restaurant car?!?!? Screenshot attached. Have they reintroduced them? Marvellous news.

I have checked the same journey on split tickets. It offers the same connection so I assume LNER also would have to accept it even though bought through a 3rd party provider?

The wording explaining what happens if hour first journey seems to be incorrect to me. It states ‘
• If you are delayed after the departure of your first service e.g. miss a connecting train/a train is cancelled, you can catch the next service on the
same route.’

If what I am being told on here is correct, should it not state:
‘If your first journey is delayed or cancelled and causes you to miss your connecting train, you can catch the next service on the same route operated by the same operator’
 

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jfollows

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I have just checked a random journey between Herne Hill and KX bought as a through ticket, as I am starting to think I just do this unless there is a big cost penalty (which sometimes there is for reasons I can never fathom). The journey I checked only allows 27 minutes rule to change. I assume where LNER offers this (which is less than the 31 mins actual min change) it is bound to honour it.
See https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/split-ticket-delay-rights.286860/#post-7302655
Some journey planners, including the one that's used by National Rail Enquiries, use a reduced interchange time of 21 minutes between St Pancras and Kings Cross, rather than the 31 minutes (15 minutes at each station + 1 minute walk) which the data would otherwise suggest.
Some TIS suppliers / retailers use a reduced interchange time (of 21 minutes), not in the data, between Kings Cross and St Pancras. Trainline and Silverrail are two, there may be more.
The itinerary is still valid.
 
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Watershed

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Thanks Watershed, that is really helpful.

Is it possible to buy a paper ticket at the contactless fare somehow
For journeys where Project Oval applies, like Sevenoaks or Eynsford to London, then in broad terms the paper singles have been reduced to equal half of the return, meaning they are generally the same as the contactless PAYG fare (there are some rounding discrepancies as paper fares traditionally only go in multiples of 10p).

There are also some differences between the way Off-Peak time restrictions work between paper tickets and contentless; paper tickets are restricted based on the scheduled departure time of each train you take, whereas PAYG peak or off-peak fares are charged based on the time you touch in, regardless of when you actually board a train or when you touch out. Railcard discounts are of course only available for paper fares, not contactless ones.

For journeys within the London Zones it generally isn't possible to buy a paper fare at the contactless/PAYG rate, unfortunately. The cost of a paper ticket is often a lot more expensive than the PAYG fare, though there are some circumstances (e.g. evening peak NR-only journeys if you have a Railcard, or travelling with a Network Railcard on weekends) where it can be cheaper.

or do you chose to accept the cost premium of a paper ticket to get rid of the risk?
Generally I'll buy a paper ticket through a retailer that doesn't charge admin fees for walk-up refunds, and only collect the paper ticket if I can see there's disruption. Otherwise I'll refund the ticket and use PAYG.

Yes, arguably unfair on the retailer as they incur the costs without getting the sales commision - but I generally use GTR, who are of course a DfT TOC, so I don't feel too bad about it!

Do you buy a through ticket for the whole journey or is it still two tickets with the first is an untimed ticket (as I don’t think you can buy one for a designate service Herne Hill to St P) but that you can argue was bought in advance of the disruption?
Separate (split) tickets are absolutely fine as are walk-up tickets. The issue is about having a contract in place (i.e. buying your ticket) before disruption is known.

I have always thought this is a problem with contactless. It is not the passengers fault if a service evaporates or is badly delayed between the time they look it up and get to the station.
Agreed - unfortunately this is one of many scenarios that the TOCs/DfT probably didn't even think of when they increased the price of paper tickets. If they did, they probably thought of it as an "edge case" not worth considering further. I've been there in industry meetings when the desire to push through a particular project/strategy means that broad principles are the only thing considered, with "edge cases" swept aside...

One thing I have started doing, where I have had to buy an advance from KX because otherwise it is the anytime fare which I just cannot afford, is looking it up on the journey planner the night before and taking a screenshot, ready to argue it was a train on time when I checked and I should be entitled to rely on that information. This feels particularly important on Thameslink where services frequently do evaporate in the 15 mins it takes me to walk to the station.
I would absolutely agree; unfortunately the latest NRCoT edition removes even the notion of a "published" timetable and simply refers to the timetable "in place on the day of travel", which could mean anything the industry wants it to mean. They could argue that since you didn't have a ticket when the disruption started, they don't have any obligation to let you on a later train. It's not an argument that I can support, but I can kind of see where they are coming from.

One of the reasons this is so important to me is that I run my own small business and often need to be in York, Newcastle or Liverpool. I cannot charge the clients for the fare and the business absolutely cannot afford anytime fares. Some advance fares are doable in peak times although availability seems to have dried up recently (I have my suspicions as to why). I cannot afford to annoy a client by missing a train due to Thameslink and then saying to the client I cannot afford to get the next one, it just looks rubbish and unprofessional.
Absolutely and this is the kind of problem that TOCs like LNER probably don't even realise they are causing.

That is one of the reasons I am so exercised on here about both Anytime fares, the restrictions on Advance fares and LNER’s trials. I use trains as transport for work. Hopefully I am generating tax revenue. The need for meetings pops up on quite short notice a lot. The mood music on here sometimes seems to be that those travelling last minute for work can suck up whatever the cost is. I absolutely cannot. The result now is I only arrange meetings in person where I know I can travel on an off peak ticket. That caps the fare at something at least predictable. It is still not cheap. Maybe 40% + of what I can charge that client for that day’s work. In reality that means I avoid in person meeting requests like the plague now - but it is not a good look with clients.

Thameslink is so bad that I have just stopped risking peak advances at all for the last couple of years. At least this knowledge puts them back in play.
Completely understand that, but I think avoiding peak Advances may be a slight overreaction given the workarounds that exist.

It is a real shame the wording of the actual T&C is vague drivel. It should be completely accurate on this really important point.
The rail industry really doesn't "get" how important it is to be clear to passengers in their terms and conditions; the NRCoT is a case in point (we've had many threads discussing areas it leaves unclear). Terms are often either uselessly vague and open to interpretation, or so full of jargon that no reasonable member of the public could be expected to understand them.
 

modernrail

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For journeys where Project Oval applies, like Sevenoaks or Eynsford to London, then in broad terms the paper singles have been reduced to equal half of the return, meaning they are generally the same as the contactless PAYG fare (there are some rounding discrepancies as paper fares traditionally only go in multiples of 10p).

There are also some differences between the way Off-Peak time restrictions work between paper tickets and contentless; paper tickets are restricted based on the scheduled departure time of each train you take, whereas PAYG peak or off-peak fares are charged based on the time you touch in, regardless of when you actually board a train or when you touch out. Railcard discounts are of course only available for paper fares, not contactless ones.

For journeys within the London Zones it generally isn't possible to buy a paper fare at the contactless/PAYG rate, unfortunately. The cost of a paper ticket is often a lot more expensive than the PAYG fare, though there are some circumstances (e.g. evening peak NR-only journeys if you have a Railcard, or travelling with a Network Railcard on weekends) where it can be cheaper.


Generally I'll buy a paper ticket through a retailer that doesn't charge admin fees for walk-up refunds, and only collect the paper ticket if I can see there's disruption. Otherwise I'll refund the ticket and use PAYG.

Yes, arguably unfair on the retailer as they incur the costs without getting the sales commision - but I generally use GTR, who are of course a DfT TOC, so I don't feel too bad about it!


Separate (split) tickets are absolutely fine as are walk-up tickets. The issue is about having a contract in place (i.e. buying your ticket) before disruption is known.


Agreed - unfortunately this is one of many scenarios that the TOCs/DfT probably didn't even think of when they increased the price of paper tickets. If they did, they probably thought of it as an "edge case" not worth considering further. I've been there in industry meetings when the desire to push through a particular project/strategy means that broad principles are the only thing considered, with "edge cases" swept aside...


I would absolutely agree; unfortunately the latest NRCoT edition removes even the notion of a "published" timetable and simply refers to the timetable "in place on the day of travel", which could mean anything the industry wants it to mean. They could argue that since you didn't have a ticket when the disruption started, they don't have any obligation to let you on a later train. It's not an argument that I can support, but I can kind of see where they are coming from.


Absolutely and this is the kind of problem that TOCs like LNER probably don't even realise they are causing.


Completely understand that, but I think avoiding peak Advances may be a slight overreaction given the workarounds that exist.


The rail industry really doesn't "get" how important it is to be clear to passengers in their terms and conditions; the NRCoT is a case in point (we've had many threads discussing areas it leaves unclear). Terms are often either uselessly vague and open to interpretation, or so full of jargon that no reasonable member of the public could be expected to understand them.
Thanks for the thoughtful replies on all those points Watershed. That has really improved my knowledge as to how best run the gauntlet of trying to get from A to B on usual journeys without being fleeced by the system for its own errors!

I think I will:

- book the through ticket where it does not add too much to the price to secure the full contractual commitment

- otherwise look out for the minimum change time, which is a bit over the top for St P to KX but fine

- combine a screenshot when I book the advance fare and tell any gateline staff that want to argue that it is not my job to constantly check a service, it is the job of the railway to run it and to respond properly when they don’t.

- if they still argue/try and charge - jump the gate. Only joking - but sometimes I really do feel like doing just that.

Off topic but why on earth are LNER advertising they have a restaurant car??? Could the people running the app really not work out how to type ‘at seat service’ instead? This stuff really is mind blowing. That statement is what, 15 years out of date?
 

Watershed

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Thanks for the thoughtful replies on all those points Watershed. That has really improved my knowledge as to how best run the gauntlet of trying to get from A to B on usual journeys without being fleeced by the system for its own errors!

I think I will:

- book the through ticket where it does not add too much to the price to secure the full contractual commitment
That, or buying a separate paper ticket for the 'local' leg ahead of time (which you can refund if not necessary), would be my suggested course of action.

- otherwise look out for the minimum change time, which is a bit over the top for St P to KX but fine
I think others have alluded to this, but the minimum connection time from one National Rail service to another between STP & KGX is intended to be 21 minutes, not 31. The industry data feed for connection times and inter-station links is structured in a way that assumes you want to allow the minimum connection time at each station (i.e. 15 mins at each of STP & KGX).

It doesn't support the negative connection times or walking links that would needed to allow a 21 min connection to be offered across all retailers; instead, some retailers have basically used a 'hack'/workaround to implement it. The fact that not all retailers have done so is why you see the inconsistency between different journey planners.

- combine a screenshot when I book the advance fare and tell any gateline staff that want to argue that it is not my job to constantly check a service, it is the job of the railway to run it and to respond properly when they don’t.
Though I completely agree with you from a moral perspective, I don't think that argument is going to get you very far with most gateline staff...

- if they still argue/try and charge - jump the gate. Only joking - but sometimes I really do feel like doing just that.
Far less risky to pay for a new ticket under duress and then claim it back afterwards from the relevant TOC's customer relations.

Off topic but why on earth are LNER advertising they have a restaurant car??? Could the people running the app really not work out how to type ‘at seat service’ instead? This stuff really is mind blowing. That statement is what, 15 years out of date?
Because LNER have marked their train as having catering facility "F" in the schedule data, which based on the industry definition (scroll down to catering codes) means having a restaurant car for first class passengers. Their journey planner is outputting exactly what the schedule data tells it; "garbage in = garbage out" as the saying goes.

The definitions for these sorts of things were set up back in BR days, before complimentary at-seat catering was 'a thing' in first class. So LNER's timetable team are somewhat limited in how they can convey that you get food in first class. It's one of many areas where the industry is behind the times...
 

yorkie

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Thanks for the thoughtful replies on all those points Watershed. That has really improved my knowledge as to how best run the gauntlet of trying to get from A to B on usual journeys without being fleeced by the system for its own errors!

I think I will:

- book the through ticket where it does not add too much to the price to secure the full contractual commitment

- otherwise look out for the minimum change time, which is a bit over the top for St P to KX but fine

- combine a screenshot when I book the advance fare and tell any gateline staff that want to argue that it is not my job to constantly check a service, it is the job of the railway to run it and to respond properly when they don’t.
Or use the forum's site, which has various advanced options which may be useful, and will check to see if it's splitting without you having to do so.

If you want the option to use contactless to travel across London, and obtain e-tickets to/from the relevant termini (where cheaper and available, respectively), we have an option for that.

You can also allow additional interchange time, if you wish.

We'd also give you enhanced support, in the unlikely event of a dispute.
Off topic but why on earth are LNER advertising they have a restaurant car??? Could the people running the app really not work out how to type ‘at seat service’ instead? This stuff really is mind blowing. That statement is what, 15 years out of date?
This is just what the data says. Whether you call it a "restaurant" or not is perhaps subjective, though I'd say it's perhaps not appropriate for non-Dine trains.

There are a limited number of options within the data; whether LNER have chosen the right option, or whether additional options should be available in the data, or whether any should be renamed, is perhaps best discussed in a separate thread, rather than conflate separate issues in this one.
 
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