Car damage by level crossing barriers (27/07)

[qwertyberty]

A mate is waiting at a CCTV locally monitored crossing, full barriers. There are two cars ahead of him. The train passes and the barriers open.

Cars start to move across then one up ahead (we’ll clear of crossing) stops & blocks road for unknown reason, my mate is straddling the exit barriers, car behind him on the crossing.

It’s only been about 10 seconds and the lights & sirens start again. No way forward, so the car behind reverses off the crossing and my mate does the same, but as he’s passing under the entrance barriers they hit the roof of his car and scratch down roof/windscreen/bonnet.

Barriers complete closure and train passes a couple of minutes later.

Who fools the bill for the damage??

 

[HughT]

Highway code para 291: "Never drive onto a crossing until the road is clear on the other side."

Since your mate shouldn't have started to cross until the road was clear, I'm afraid it's between him and his own insurance company. Compared to what could have happened I'd say he's a lucky guy! (None of which excuses the thoughtless action of the car at the front who randomly stopped without paying attention to what was going on behind him.)

 

[qwertyberty]

Yeah, I understand the Highway Code rule. In fairness, as you said, he had no idea some plonker would block the road just beyond the crossing (as per car in front & behind him). But what about the crossing operator?

Allowing the barriers to continue to lower even though cars on the railway and not stopping the barriers whilst said cars are trying to remove themselves (which is also mentioned in Highway Code I believe).

And then presumably pressing crossing clear to clear the signal, whilst barrier alarms must have been going/gone off on the panel. The bit that could have led to a much worse outcome. It seems harsh to put it all on a driver caught in a tricky situation. If the big red button to stop the lowering sequence had been pressed, his car wouldn’t have got crunched…

 

[Nippy]

Crossing clear can’t be pressed until the barriers are proved lowered and if the level crossing failed alarm has gone off won’t be proved lowered. Although of course it is possible to be press crossing clear when not clear if something is trapped, occasionally happens that a pedestrian gets caught and can’t be seen, but I don’t know of anyone who’d press crossing clear with a car inside the barriers.
Which crossing was it? There are different types so it helps to know……

 

[Falcon1200]

Allowing the barriers to continue to lower even though cars on the railway and not stopping the barriers whilst said cars are trying to remove themselves

At CCTV level crossings, which are remotely monitored, not locally (as there would then be no need for the CCTV), the Signaller does not normally watch the barriers coming down, the CCTV is used once the barriers are down to check that the crossing is clear.

And then presumably pressing crossing clear to clear the signal whilst barrier alarms must have been going/gone off on the panel.

How do you know that is what happened?

 

[styles]

Yeah, understand the Highway Code rule. In fairness, as you said, he had no idea some plonker would block the road just beyond the crossing (as per car in front & behind him).

This is why the rule for crossings (and yellow boxes) refer to the road on the other side being clear, rather than say when a driver might think they'll be able to make it across the crossing in fairness. It's a pretty common trait to see people proceed into yellow boxes when they expect the traffic ahead will make space for them, and maybe 99% of the time it does, so drivers continue to do it, but when it doesn't work that 1% with yellow boxes it can be a pain, and I suppose in the 1% of the time it doesn't work on railway level crossings, it can be fatal. Hard habit to change en masse though!

But what about the crossing operator? Allowing the barriers to continue to lower even though cars on the railway and not stopping the barriers whilst said cars are trying to remove themselves (which is also mentioned in Highway Code I believe). And then presumably pressing crossing clear to clear the signal whilst barrier alarms must have been going/gone off on the panel. The bit that could have led to a much worse outcome. Seems harsh to put it all on a driver caught in a tricky situation. If the big red button to stop the lowering sequence had been pressed his car wouldn’t have got crunched…

Few too many unknowns here, depends on how the crossing is controlled, monitored, and we don't actually know what happened behind the scenes in this case.

 

[qwertyberty]

It’s remotely monitored, CCTV. So sounds like not much point in reporting to BTP/Network Rail to see if Network Rail might be liable for car repair costs?

 

[yorkie]

This is why the rule for crossings (and yellow boxes) refer to the road on the other side being clear, rather than say when a driver might think they'll be able to make it across the crossing in fairness. It's a pretty common trait to see people proceed into yellow boxes when they expect the traffic ahead will make space for them, and maybe 99% of the time it does, so drivers continue to do it, but when it doesn't work that 1% with yellow boxes it can be a pain, and I suppose in the 1% of the time it doesn't work on railway level crossings, it can be fatal. Hard habit to change en masse though!

Agreed; the car driver made the assumption based on what happens ~99% of the time, and unfortunately the exit wasn't clear, so the driver is liable for that.

Few too many unknowns here, depends on how the crossing is controlled, monitored, and we don't actually know what happened behind the scenes in this case.

Agreed; if @qwertyberty can provide more information, there's a good chance we'll have some experts on here who will be familiar with the location.

 

[LAX54]

If they are MCB-OD then the Signaller has no CCTV anyway, but there will be no 'clear' indication if the barrier is prevented from lowering, or the radar detetcs an obstruction, plus many CCTV crossings now have auto-lower, so again no requirement to watch lowering sequence, allthough many do if they have the time, but again alarm will go if boom does not lower, and before pressing crossing clear, will check picture to ensure crossing clear.
If this incident delayed trains, not only a repair bill for car, but a claim from Network Rail too !

 

[ic31420]

It’s remotely monitored, CCTV. So sounds like not much point in reporting to BTP/Network Rail to see if Network Rail might be liable for car repair costs?

To add insult to injury BTP might stick "your mate" on for the relevent offence and NR send the bill for inspection and remediation of the crossing equipment.


What's the level of damage to your car?

 

[MarkyT]

At CCTV level crossings, which are remotely monitored, not locally (as there would then be no need for the CCTV), the Signaller does not normally watch the barriers coming down, the CCTV is used once the barriers are down to check that the crossing is clear.

There are a handful of town centre crossings that are extremely busy with pedestrians at certain times, where watching the barriers fall and rise is advisable as otherwise it's all too easy to trap a pedestrian on lower, or have one get entangled in the barrier on raise after leaning on the boom or tying their dog lead or child restraint to it. Poole, Paignton North, Lincoln spring to mind.

 

[OscarH]

This is why the rule for crossings (and yellow boxes) refer to the road on the other side being clear, rather than say when a driver might think they'll be able to make it across the crossing in fairness. It's a pretty common trait to see people proceed into yellow boxes when they expect the traffic ahead will make space for them, and maybe 99% of the time it does, so drivers continue to do it, but when it doesn't work that 1% with yellow boxes it can be a pain, and I suppose in the 1% of the time it doesn't work on railway level crossings, it can be fatal. Hard habit to change en masse though!

Level crossings perhaps are a case where you should more carefully follow this.

But this video from a driving instructor I thought quite well summarises the reality at many yellow boxes, where if you actually stop until the other side is clear it really ain't gonna go well

,

 

[J663738]

I did get caught in a yellow box junction, two lane merging to one, then a junction with a yellow box, which was camera monitored. The way was clear for me and I edged forward as it was heavy traffic, until some ****** over took me and grabbed the space, leaving me stuck on the box! I fully expected to be fined and had my dash cam and excuses all ready, but never heard anything. Maybe they do take multiple shots and examine what happened?/
It was down near Croydon somewhere and must have made a packet from people who didn't know the score, very poor road layout.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Level crossings perhaps are a case where you should more carefully follow this.

But this video from a driving instructor I thought quite well summarises the reality at many yellow boxes, where if you actually stop until the other side is clear it really ain't gonna go well

,

Gave up watching that video after less than 2 minutes. The first two real life situations he demonstrated were ridiculous, on his part. He held back about 3 times further than he needed to in the first example. The second example, the roundabout, he didn't need to dramatically stamp on the brakes and almost get rear-ended, he just needed to ease off and approach very slightly slower.

 

[Djgr]

Level crossings perhaps are a case where you should more carefully follow this.

But this video from a driving instructor I thought quite well summarises the reality at many yellow boxes, where if you actually stop until the other side is clear it really ain't gonna go well

,

The Highway Code and the law versus some random bloke on YouTube!!!

 

[simonw]

Level crossings perhaps are a case where you should more carefully follow this.

But this video from a driving instructor I thought quite well summarises the reality at many yellow boxes, where if you actually stop until the other side is clear it really ain't gonna go well

,

Thanks for the reminder why, apart from music, I never watch YouTube videos.

 

[styles]

Tbh that YouTube video just emphasised how many unlawful yellow boxes there are. Yellow Box Guru explains in much detail.

I don't think that really applies to most yellow boxes though, or indeed many level crossings which are usually very short.

 

[qwertyberty]

To add insult to injury BTP might stick "your mate" on for the relevent offence and NR send the bill for inspection and remediation of the crossing equipment.


What's the level of damage to your car?

I heard today they were actually straddling the entrance barrier (not exit) and had stopped as soon as noticed car ahead stop abruptly on the crossing exit. By the time the car behind them reversed & they started to reverse it was too late, barrier hit roof and dragged off car into lowered position. Dented the roof when it hit. Car damage all cosmetic but dents/deep scratches to roof/bonnet/side & front panels. Definitely an insurance claim £ level anyway. I suppose at the end of the day the insurance company will debate liability with Network rail. No yellow hatching on the road surface (for YouTube fans but I still don’t know the location. Thanks for all the replies.

 

[800001]

I heard today they were actually straddling the entrance barrier (not exit) and had stopped as soon as noticed car ahead stop abruptly on the crossing exit. By the time the car behind them reversed & they started to reverse it was too late, barrier hit roof and dragged off car into lowered position. Dented the roof when it hit. Car damage all cosmetic but dents/deep scratches to roof/bonnet/side & front panels. Definitely an insurance claim £ level anyway. I suppose at the end of the day the insurance company will debate liability with Network rail. No yellow hatching on the road surface (for YouTube fans but I still don’t know the location. Thanks for all the replies.

I would say they need to take it on the chin and pay for repairs them selves.
They still entered the crossing without knowing the route ahead was clear.

 

[Falcon1200]

There are a handful of town centre crossings that are extremely busy with pedestrians at certain times, where watching the barriers fall and rise is advisable

Good point. It would be helpful if the OP could name the crossing involved?

Question for the signalling experts; Can the situation as described below result in the barrier lowering sequence being completed without serious damage to the barrier, and with no alarm being generated and the Signaller therefore being unaware anything untoward had occurred?

barrier hit roof and dragged off car into lowered position.

 

[MarkyT]

aGood point. It would be helpful if the OP could name the crossing involved?

Question for the signalling experts; Can the situation as described below result in the barrier lowering sequence being completed without serious damage to the barrier, and with no alarm being generated and the Signaller therefore being unaware anything untoward had occurred?

For an MCB, there are contacts in the mechanism that prove the barriers have fully lowered and continuity strips in the booms that check they are still intact, before crossing clear can be confirmed to release protecting signals.

 

[66701GBRF]

Just for info regarding yellow boxes at level crossings, they are only painted at some level crossings for emphasis where risks of queuing have been identified. Absence of a yellow box or a faded yellow box does not remove a driver's liability.

 

[sportzbar]

Its really very simple. If he has proceeded beyond the stop line by any small amount, without checking that there is space on the other side of the crossing for his vehicle to completley clear the crossing including the barriers then it is he that is at fault unfortunately....

 

[AnyFile]

Highway code para 291: "Never drive onto a crossing until the road is clear on the other side."

But the only way to literally follow this rules would be that any car approaching the level crossing should stop, wait for the next car to be far from the end of the opposite side of the level crossing and only then start moving.

Can you imagine if every drivers do this in a busy road. The number of cars able to pass every hour would be drastically reduced.

In my opinion they should be able to check if it is OK to lower the barrier. What happen if there are a problem that has not been caused by the inobservance of the above mentioned rule? For example if a car broke down, or if there is a problem in the road that traps the car.

If the system currently present at CCTV level crossing is not able to assess if the situation is clear to lower the barriers (or if the procedure to lower the barrier is just pressing one button and not two different button, one for starting the flashing sequence and on to lower the barriers after checking that is safe) then there is a problem in this system.

 

[sportzbar]

But the only way to literally follow this rules would be that any car approaching the level crossing should stop, wait for the next car to be far from the end of the opposite side of the level crossing and only then start moving.

Can you imagine if every drivers do this in a busy road. The number of cars able to pass every hour would be drastically reduced.

In my opinion they should be able to check if it is OK to lower the barrier. What happen if there are a problem that has not been caused by the inobservance of the above mentioned rule? For example if a car broke down, or if there is a problem in the road that traps the car.

If the system currently present at CCTV level crossing is not able to assess if the situation is clear to lower the barriers (or if the procedure to lower the barrier is just pressing one button and not two different button, one for starting the flashing sequence and on to lower the barriers after checking that is safe) then there is a problem in this system.

How many level crossings. do you know that have such a poor line of sight, that as a driver you can't see if the road ahead is clear? I believe it's a requirement (could be wrong so don't shoot me), that level crossings have to have clear lines of sight specifically for this reason.

Drivers are responsible for ensuring that they can completely clear the level crossing as per the highway code. If they can't do that then they either hold back (as per highway code) or hand their license back in. A road being busy is not an excuse.....

 

[Lockwood]

But the only way to literally follow this rules would be that any car approaching the level crossing should stop, wait for the next car to be far from the end of the opposite side of the level crossing and only then start moving.

Can you imagine if every drivers do this in a busy road. The number of cars able to pass every hour would be drastically reduced.

There is a difference between "come to a stop" and "wait to start".

If the traffic is freely flowing, and it is immediately obvious that you can safely exit upon entering, good. Go for it.

If things have only just started to get going, then you should be more cautious in proceeding.

If a driver were to treat the entrance to every level crossing and yellow box as stop and give way sign, they would not be driving to the standard expected of a competent road user

 

[Benjwri]

But the only way to literally follow this rules would be that any car approaching the level crossing should stop, wait for the next car to be far from the end of the opposite side of the level crossing and only then start moving.

If you’re leaving enough space to stop if the driver were to stop suddenly you’re most of the way to allowing enough space for the level crossing, just just need to slow slightly and build a little bigger gap.

I do know however that leaving a safe distance is another one that a lot of people don’t believe in.

 

[styles]

But the only way to literally follow this rules would be that any car approaching the level crossing should stop, wait for the next car to be far from the end of the opposite side of the level crossing and only then start moving.

Can you imagine if every drivers do this in a busy road. The number of cars able to pass every hour would be drastically reduced.

As with yellow boxes, drivers don't normally need to actually stop when traffic in front of them is moving, merely ease off the gas. I can't say I've ever struggled with this and most drivers go their whole driving career without stopping on a level crossing and having to reverse.

Even when I lived in London and it seemed like every other yellow box had an enforcement camera, I managed to avoid any yellow box breaches and can't say it was any more stop-start than other parts of the road.

 

[endofthetunnel]

Question for the signalling experts; Can the situation as described below result in the barrier lowering sequence being completed without serious damage to the barrier, and with no alarm being generated and the Signaller therefore being unaware anything untoward had occurred?

If the barriers for whatever reason are delayed between starting to lower and the usual time of achieving down detection, an alarm will sound which needs acknowledgement.

If the barriers are hit or bent in a way which dislodges them then again the alarm sounds which prevents clearing signals, and if this is after the signals are cleared already, in most cases they will revert to danger automatically.

For further info, barriers are attached to the mechanism with bolts designed to fracture if the barriers are crashed into, so the barrier immediately detaches rather than bends or breaks, to allow it to be simply reattached by technicians. This of course breaks the circular and creates an alarm. The ‘usual’ impact they are designed for is horizontal from moving vehicles. In general barriers are strong enough for someone to hold on to them as they go up without breaking.

If the system currently present at CCTV level crossing is not able to assess if the situation is clear to lower the barriers (or if the procedure to lower the barrier is just pressing one button and not two different button, one for starting the flashing sequence and on to lower the barriers after checking that is safe) then there is a problem in this system.

Some CCTV crossings on quieter crossings have Auto Lower, so the process starts with no signaller checking the crossing.

Most need manual operation to begin, but it is the process of starting the sequence that prompts people to clear the crossing. The siren and lights are the trigger to stop people entering, then the entry barriers close fully, then - after a set specific time which varies for each crossing to allow all vehicles and pedestrians to be fully clear - the exit barriers lower. On most crossings this all happens from a single button push, sometimes separate pushes are needed for different stages, or sometimes need the button holding throughout, all depending on risk assessments when designed.

If signallers waited until crossings were clear before starting sequences, they could be waiting hours.

 

[edwin_m]

But the only way to literally follow this rules would be that any car approaching the level crossing should stop, wait for the next car to be far from the end of the opposite side of the level crossing and only then start moving.

At 30mph, the recommended two-second separation is over 50m, so normal prudent driving would ensure enough spacing to make this unnecessary for just about every level crossing.