Future of the 350/2s

[D365]

Would the surplus of centre carriages form 5 car units for LNWR, if this would go ahead

Given that the remaining Class 350s are owned by Angel Trains, that's another level of speculation in itself.

 

[JonathanH]

It has been investigated. It's not impossible.

It doesn't provide the same level of capacity as a 323 though, even with the 3+2 seating retained.

I guess a 7-car 350 formation would become possible, which would be roughly the same length as a 6-car 323 formation.

Scrapping 15 year old trailer cars seems a bit wasteful though.

 

[Snow1964]

The now free 5-car IETs could be used on the Cardiff to Portsmouth fast services to help relieve overcrowding and provide a second service an hour between Cardiff and Portsmouth, which would require 8 5-car IETs. 12-13 IETs would be freed from the 350/2s and 387s reshuffle, with an additional 5 coming from the South West with the 175 introduction. Also, this would allow for the North Cotswolds to continuously operate with 10-car IETs to Oxford and then 5-car to Worcester and another 5-car running to Banbury, which would allow for the withdrawal of the every other hour Didcot to Banbury stopper to be replaced by an hourly service instead which improves frequency and reduces overcrowding on Cross Country.

The IETs are not currently cleared south of Westbury.
From memory it is not possible to ease Hamble viaduct for 26m vehicles, it is curved (actually a series of straight spans, where joints are angled).

It would probably be lot easier to make the 350s dual voltage (some were equipped for it anyway), add batteries and use them on Cardiff-Portsmouth and some other services too.

 

[Russel]

Would the surplus of centre carriages form 5 car units for LNWR, if this would go ahead

Given the 350s remaining with LNWR have a difference owner to the 350/2s, while probably technically possible, it would almost certainly be too difficult from a red tape and paperwork aspect.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Given that the remaining Class 350s are owned by Angel Trains, that's another level of speculation in itself.

Given the 350s remaining with LNWR have a difference owner to the 350/2s, while probably technically possible, it would almost certainly be too difficult from a red tape and paperwork aspect.

It wouldn't be impossible for one leasing company to sell surplus vehicles to another leasing company, which would avoid most of the red tape complications.

I do think, though, it's probably better to find a use for the 350/2s as they are* and I agree with @JonathanH that scrapping 15 year old carriages should be avoided.

*Even if this does cause a multiple way cascade somewhere.

 

[Russel]

It wouldn't be impossible for one leasing company to sell surplus vehicles to another leasing company, which would avoid most of the red tape complications.

Not impossible but we all know how anything railway related, even simple stuff ends up become very complex very quickly!

 

[43096]

Not impossible but we all know how anything railway related, even simple stuff ends up become very complex very quickly!

It has been done before though.

 

[Energy]

Would the surplus of centre carriages form 5 car units for LNWR, if this would go ahead

LNWR requires trains that can be formed into 240m units.

2x 5 car class 730 is ~240m

2x 5 car class 350 is ~200m
3x 4 car class 350 is ~240m

Mixed-length 350s wouldn't suit LNWR's operations well either. They like to send any 350 to any 350 route; while with 5 car units, they need to make sure they don't send a 5 car unit to a triple 350 diagram. The 730s and 350s are planned for different diagrams to ensure that a 350 and 730 aren't sent out to couple with each other.

How possible even is refitting them to 3 carriages?

One of the vehicles is a trailer, which looks like it could be easily removed. I presume the trailer is where Porterbrook planned to install batteries.

Northern previously operated 4x20m class 319 units. Does anyone know if the 6-car platform extensions done recently are long enough for 8x20m?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Northern previously operated 4x20m class 319 units. Does anyone know if the 6-car platform extensions done recently are long enough for 8x20m?

I think a more important question is for the termini and junction stations rather than intermediate stations where SDO could be deployed.
Manchester Oxford Road Platform 5 can only fit 4 carriages, Salford Crescent can only fit 6*20m.
There will be many more examples.

 

[Energy]

think a more important question is for the termini and junction stations rather than intermediate stations where SDO could be deployed.

Agreed. The class 350s SDO is currently unit deselect though I believe the LNWR /1, /3 and /4 units have been fitted with a more sophisticated system which'll be in use, alongside SDO on 730/2s, once the 350/2s have all left LNWR service. So fitting better SDO to the 350/2s shouldn't be too difficult.

Manchester Oxford Road Platform 5 can only fit 4 carriages

The Manchester Oxford Road remodelling has 8 carriages on the thru and 6 carriages on the single turnback. They don't state platform length but I'd assume 24m.

It seems odd that Northern would choose 4x20m units when its future rolling stock plans for a while have been around 3/4 x 24m.


Image Description: The station plan Network Rail have proposed for Manchester Oxford Road Remodelling. The plan contains two 8 carriage thru platforms and a single 6 platform turnback platform. [source - Network Rail]

 

[Dspatula]

I was told this happening because of the situation with spare parts for 323s being provided by webtec Doncaster who are closing and no other supplier is available for parts. Porterbrook own both fleets and siemens have been approached about the 3 car conversations and ASDO.

I think a more important question is for the termini and junction stations rather than intermediate stations where SDO could be deployed.
Manchester Oxford Road Platform 5 can only fit 4 carriages, Salford Crescent can only fit 6*20m.
There will be many more examples.

a 7 car 350 pair would be 142.4m a 6 car 331 pair are 142.8m. Platform 5 at Oxford Rd isn't any more or less an issue than it is for the current emu fleet and the shortest platform at Salford Crescent is 152m. They'd actually be slightly more useful for Stoke platform 3 which is 88m.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Platform 5 at Oxford Rd isn't any more or less an issue than it is for the current emu fleet

In fact, looking at the length according to https://www.railwaydata.co.uk/stations/overview/?TLC=MCO, 5*20m would fit.

 

[The Ham]

It wouldn't be impossible for one leasing company to sell surplus vehicles to another leasing company, which would avoid most of the red tape complications.

I do think, though, it's probably better to find a use for the 350/2s as they are* and I agree with @JonathanH that scrapping 15 year old carriages should be avoided.

*Even if this does cause a multiple way cascade somewhere.

If the centre cars are sold as "scrap" I'd image that if the other ROSCO had a use for them they may just buy them.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

I have seen it in a rail magazine that GWR is looking at replacing its 387s. I think that this is very unlikely to happen. But I wonder if GWR would bring in the 350/2s to replace the 387s?

 

[Zomboid]

That's more likely in relation to replacing everything with something new on a common platform.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

I don't see the 350/2s going to Northern Railway as they have the 323, which I believe will be used until Northern gets totally new trains. I just think that Northern is going with the 323 until their life expires.

 

[BerkshireRails]

The reasons in favour of the 350s being taken to GWML, would need to be balanced.

During the course of the day, you need 12 units for the Didcot Parkway to Paddington services, assuming 8 coaches.

You also need 3 units for the Newbury to Paddington, which runs as a 4 car but has a 62 minute turnround at Paddington.

A further 2 units for the Newbury to Reading shuttle.

Unless I am missing anything, that's only 17 units. Even bolstering capacity at peak, and adding in any odds and sods, that's all there is. I doubt the Cardiff diagram is absolutely mandatory, but if Swindon drivers are the ones who are doing it, then they'd be signing 350s anyway as they already do Didcot to Paddington work?

Electrification to Oxford is not happening soon. Nor is Reading to Basingstoke, or anything like Newbury to Bedwyn, or the branches. So you're actually net gain, with the option of an increased use of 110mph 350s on other services as required (perhaps some Cardiff diagrams, perhaps in that way), to release more 80x fleet back for longer, better services between Cardiff and Bristol, or out West.

Quite bluntly, Heathrow Express is also not important. If you have to retain a microfleet of 387s for a short period for that service, then so be it. They will undoubtedly get replaced in due time, and the service may even fold.

So, all this in the round, this seems fine to me. And in return, you are sending a small heap of 387s with DC shoes off to be able to partially reshape the Southern route, homogenising the 387 fleet in Sussex. Or, you end up simultaneously replacing the Southeastern fleet in totality, which gives Southern plenty of units to choose from e.g. 377s, 387s and you can then start considering battery fitment if that's a serious idea for the Marshlink and the Uckfield, and possibly even the North Downs if you switch operators.

I don't have a view either way, but I don't think there's much reason to keep all those 387s on the Western, when you could potentially use them on all sorts of other services south of London.

During the peaks the Didcot's are 12 coach services, as it isn't uncommon for the 1Ks Newbury to London's to be 8 car units.

Heathrow Express contract expires in 2028 so that would be the logical time to remove the Heathrow Express services and modify calling pattern to use the Mains for the Readings XR services between Portobello Junction and Stockley Bridge Junction freeing up extra paths for more Heathrow all stop services to make up for the lose of the Heathrow Express if the Reliefs can not support any more trains for that part of the route.

The battery 350/2s would allow Oxford and Bedwyn to be transferred to commuter trains rather than IETs which aren't really suited to those workings. Oxford requires 3 IETs at the moment so your looking at 6 class 350/2s for the fasts and 2-4 units for the Didcot stopper extension which frees up two turbos for other workings.

North Downs has been proposed for service extensions to Oxford, Portsmouth Harbour and Brighton, which might make sense to retain Reading TCD as the depot for the Downs. Also the Downs went to Western from Southern to simplify operations, since at that time Reading only had diesel traction and Southern Region was mostly electric.

The IETs are not currently cleared south of Westbury.
From memory it is not possible to ease Hamble viaduct for 26m vehicles, it is curved (actually a series of straight spans, where joints are angled).

It would probably be lot easier to make the 350s dual voltage (some were equipped for it anyway), add batteries and use them on Cardiff-Portsmouth and some other services too.

Not being able to get past Hamble Viaduct isn't a show stopper it just means splitting the service at Southampton Central which might be a good thing as you can then provide a better local services with SWR & Southern services between Portsmouth & Southampton with GWR running a Southampton or Eastleigh service to Cardiff.

Wouldn't a Battery 350/2 have a similar range to the battery 379? Also the 350/1s were meant to be 450s hence having shoegear however the 350/2s were never meant to be 450s hence not having shoegear. You looking at needing at a minimum around 200 miles range during winter to enable you to get from Patchway to Redbridge and back to depot without recharging in case a fault prevents recharging off third rail or OLE.

Agreed. The class 350s SDO is currently unit deselect though I believe the LNWR /1, /3 and /4 units have been fitted with a more sophisticated system which'll be in use, alongside SDO on 730/2s, once the 350/2s have all left LNWR service. So fitting better SDO to the 350/2s shouldn't be too difficult.

The Manchester Oxford Road remodelling has 8 carriages on the thru and 6 carriages on the single turnback. They don't state platform length but I'd assume 24m.

It seems odd that Northern would choose 4x20m units when its future rolling stock plans for a while have been around 3/4 x 24m.

View attachment 184548
Image Description: The station plan Network Rail have proposed for Manchester Oxford Road Remodelling. The plan contains two 8 carriage thru platforms and a single 6 platform turnback platform. [source - Network Rail]

Do we know what sort of carriage they are using to work out how many carriages could fit at Manchester Oxford Road. the SWT 450s & 444s certainly have ASDO fitted which shows the 350/2s could gain ASDO. Also the 350/2s would provide a slight capacity enhancement, from allowing more trains to be longer as well as faster since they could be pathed at 110mph rather than 90mph when it is possible to reach 90+mph.

 

[ic31420]

I don't see the 350/2s going to Northern Railway as they have the 323, which I believe will be used until Northern gets totally new trains. I just think that Northern is going with the 323 until their life expires.

Plenty of folk dischuffed about tired non aircon slower 323s replacing the rapid, new, Aircon fitted 333s and grumbling to Burnham.

I like the 323s but they're a definite downgrade from the 333 to most passengers and in the hot weather a few weeks ago even I wasn't happy on the 323. Several people grumbling about the "broken air con" as they simply couldn't imagine a train on the newly electrified line wouldn't be fitted with Aircon in this day and age.

It's a bit of a difficult one to put a positive spin on for Burnham. "yup your new trains delivered a few years ago are now being sent to Yorkshire.... But don't worry, youre getting a load of 30year old cast offs from Brum, that are tired inside, slower, don't have air con and sound a bit weird"

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Plenty of folk dischuffed about tired non aircon slower 323s replacing the rapid, new, Aircon fitted 333s and grumbling to Burnham.

I like the 323s but they're a definite downgrade from the 333 to most passengers and in the hot weather a few weeks ago even I wasn't happy on the 323. Several people grumbling about the "broken air con" as they simply couldn't imagine a train on the newly electrified line wouldn't be fitted with Aircon in this day and age.

It's a bit of a difficult one to put a positive spin on for Burnham. "yup your new trains delivered a few years ago are now being sent to Yorkshire.... But don't worry, youre getting a load of 30year old cast offs from Brum, that are tired inside, slower, don't have air con

Manchester gained more 331 carriages than it lost to the east side, with 12*3 cars going over and 12*4 cars coming from the East.
Althogh with the 319s leaving quite a lot of 3 car 331s took over their diagrams.
It's not the 331s swapping to 323s, it's 319s swapping to 323s.

and sound a bit weird"

The sound is the best part!

 

[amahy]

Manchester gained more 331 carriages than it lost to the east side, with 12*3 cars going over and 12*4 cars coming from the East.
Althogh with the 319s leaving quite a lot of 3 car 331s took over their diagrams.
It's not the 331s swapping to 323s, it's 319s swapping to 323s.

I get the impression that Northern doesn’t have enough 4 car units since the 319s left. The only routes (in my opinion, at least) that should be single 3 car sets are Man Picc - Glossop/Hadfield, Man Vic - Wigan NW via Eccles, and arguably the Airedale/Wharfedale lines and Man Picc - Alderley/Crewe (off peak, a 3 car is fine, but in the peaks, a 3 car is too short, but a 6 car is too long).

Most of Northern’s 3 car EMUs end up running in pairs, but that creates problems in itself, as none of them have end gangways. Double 331/0s now operate on Liverpool - Man Air, which are too long for most platforms on the route, but a single 331/0 would leave people behind at peak time.

 

[D365]

Most of Northern’s 3 car EMUs end up running in pairs, but that creates problems in itself, as none of them have end gangways. Double 331/0s now operate on Liverpool - Man Air, which are too long for most platforms on the route, but a single 331/0 would leave people behind at peak time.

How many 3 car 331s are left on the ’west side’?

 

[amahy]

How many 3 car 331s are left on the ’west side’?

19, I believe. If Northern leased the 350/2s, it would allow all electric services around Yorkshire to become 4 carriages once more, and also routes such as Liverpool - Man Air to become 4 carriages. To standardise things, I would transfer the 12 331/1s back to Yorkshire to operate alongside the 333s, leaving 350/2s, 331/0s, and 323s to operate around Manchester. Depending on numbers, some 323s could be withdrawn.

 

[Class15]

19, I believe. If Northern leased the 350/2s, it would allow all electric services around Yorkshire to become 4 carriages once more, and also routes such as Liverpool - Man Air to become 4 carriages. To standardise things, I would transfer the 12 331/1s back to Yorkshire to operate alongside the 333s, leaving 350/2s, 331/0s, and 323s to operate around Manchester. Depending on numbers, some 323s could be withdrawn.

Isn’t the plan to have 6-car trains on the Airedale and Wharfedale lines?

 

[YorksLad12]

Isn’t the plan to have 6-car trains on the Airedale and Wharfedale lines?

Yes - platform extensions are underway (such as Kirkstall Forge, where the platforms will become around 50% longer).

The 350s are shorter than the 331s; the denser seating doesn't really make up for the difference you get with a 2x3-car set. Do the 350/2s have first class seating?

 

[MCR247]

Yes - platform extensions are underway (such as Kirkstall Forge, where the platforms will become around 50% longer).

The 350s are shorter than the 331s; the denser seating doesn't really make up for the difference you get with a 2x3-car set. Do the 350/2s have first class seating?

Yes they have a section of 2+2 first class in one of the centre vehicles. Similar to where it used to be on 450s

 

[JonathanH]

Yes they have a section of 2+2 first class in one of the centre vehicles. Similar to where it used to be on 450s

Although that is the coach that would be removed if they were taken down to three coaches.

 

[ic31420]

Manchester gained more 331 carriages than it lost to the east side, with 12*3 cars going over and 12*4 cars coming from the East.
Althogh with the 319s leaving quite a lot of 3 car 331s took over their diagrams.
It's not the 331s swapping to 323s, it's 319s swapping to 323s.

I stand corrected. I'm not really a book ahead sort. I know it's unfashionable and a frowned upon these days but I'm a turn up and go sort. In the last 3 years I've rarely encountered a 319 and had sort of forgotten about them.

Probably by chance I seem to be dropping on the 323s regularly. Usually the grotty ones. I'm usually on the Bolton - Preston Services

My fellow passengers seem to be uncomplimentary about them in a way I don't recall them being with the 319s

The sound is the best part!

Agreed. Either I've become accustomed to the 331s or they being driven more conservatively but they seem to have lost some poke too. Or was that feature of the refurbishment?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Probably by chance I seem to be dropping on the 323s regularly. Usually the grotty ones. I'm usually on the Bolton - Preston Services

319s didn't do that route much, it was mostly 3+3 331s, with 319s typically staying on the Liverpool services.

There are quite a lot of 323 diagrams on the Blackpool N - Airport services now.
Today it was:
3 pairs of 331 - 020+030, 013+031, 026+022.
and 5 pairs of 323 - 220+210, 205+234, 212+207, 202+231, 232+208.

 

[Peter0124]

Probably by chance I seem to be dropping on the 323s regularly. Usually the grotty ones. I'm usually on the Bolton - Preston Services

My fellow passengers seem to be uncomplimentary about them in a way I don't recall them being with the 319s

Agreed. Either I've become accustomed to the 331s or they being driven more conservatively but they seem to have lost some poke too. Or was that feature of the refurbishment?

Are the former WMT 323s better than the original Northern ones?

 

[Energy]

Are the former WMT 323s better than the original Northern ones?

IIRC, both have had the Porterbrook PRM, TrainFX & internal refresh treatment in 2019 (or later). Northern tendered for the WMR units to have their interior refreshed into Northern but I don't think anything has come of that yet.

It's a bit of a difficult one to put a positive spin on for Burnham. "yup your new trains delivered a few years ago are now being sent to Yorkshire.... But don't worry, youre getting a load of 30year old cast offs from Brum, that are tired inside, slower, don't have air con and sound a bit weird"

The 350/2s will still be funny-sounding cast-offs from Birmingham, just more modern ones.