Heritage railways: patronage trends 2025

[Titfield]

Anecdotal evidence as to how busy it is, is just that.

The benefit to the railway is income minus expenditure. The cost of bringing in guest locomotives can be very significant indeed and whilst it may appear that the tills are ringing the reality is for the accountants / finance department to declare.

From one point of view, time and effort can be better expended by running appeals and encouraging legacies than by running events which on occasion can be marginal.

 

[Trainlog]

I think you are focusing on one perspective and what you personally would like to see, rather than an overall view and the best solution for everybody.

Most enthusiasts I have encountered in Steamworks have spoken very positively about it, and particularly enjoying being able to step onto the footplate of multiple engines. Steamworks turned a dark, inaccessible shed into a well lit accessible space for all. Enthusiasts are not the main customer market at preserved railways - families are, and the railway needed to adapt to this. As such, the exhibits are aimed at young children (and sometimes not so young children!) so they can gain a basic understanding of the railways. There is an also a basic Stepney driving simulator, and although I wish the whistle wasn’t so loud (it does wind everyone up!) it is very popular.

Steamworks takes up the northern half of the shed, with the southern half still being the old ‘running shed’ and you can look out into the yard. There are often engines undercover in the running shed half, which you can still wander round as it was pre 2018. The Steamworks half also allows you cab access on three engines (currently Stepney, Baxter and the C), with the footplate of the C being accessible for wheelchairs. You can also look at most of the locos in the northern half from ground level, perhaps with the exception of Stepney.

I wouldn’t say the line is getting too expensive - you have to remember the price of your ticket includes other things around the railway. An adult rover is £27, which I think is a fair price for the length of line and entry to other things such as the shed, museum and C&W.

The loco works at the railway is too small to be overhauling engines solely to loan out, with a lot of projects already being outsourced to people like Leaky Finders, the SVR and the 4253 Loco Group.

On the rolling stock front, The Southern Railway Coach Group has been formed to remove the reliance on Mk1 Stock and increase our operational fleet of vintage coaches. In May, Maunsell Restriction 0 Brake 3687 entered service, allowing the railway to have a set of 4 Maunsell coaches operational simultaneously. However, carriage restoration does not happen overnight, so it will take time to build up a large operational fleet of pre-BR coaches.

Firstly, I did say it was 'armchair manager' of me, but lets be fair, who hasn't done this at least once? These are more things that I have observed over the course of over 10 years watching the line go from one with so much potential when it got to East Grinstead to one that has become 'too safe' in all honesty, with some of its ideas and others having more questions than answers from an outsider's point of view.

When I say the phrase export railway, I don't mean it would spend the whole 10 years of a locomotive's ticket away from the Bluebell; at most, it should be 18months, unless the contract needs extending. Hiring out locos helps a railway's image and could do wonders for heritage lines that have one or two former main railway locos by providing steam traction should their native loco fail.

I still think in many regards, the line has raised more questions than answers in terms of its choices over the past decade. The cancelled SECR E class still seems a strange choice even post-cancellation of the project, when something like an SECR R1 would have still provided an excuse to machine parts and construct boilers that are compatible with the H class (should a spare boiler be built).

Also how confident should enthusiasts outside the Southeast be in terms of operational Bluebell locos visiting a line near them soon? The Adams Radial tank will be a brilliant loco once overhauled, but seeming as the H class did not leave the Bluebell on its last boiler ticket, is it worth getting enthusiasts' hopes up if it's most likely a one-off cameo at the Swanage railway? And how come the line has had to rely on a GWR Hall class for this long despite the Bluebell's claim to fame as the premier Southern railway collection?

I do, however, appreciate the steps the Bluebell has taken. I said about the Dukedog at the VOR museum, and the dry storage of P class '178' at Margate - I guess this balances out the space taken up by steamworks. I also read through the Bluebell Railway's overhaul page, and I am glad to see strategies for their locos' overhauls and statuses.

As for Steamworks, yes, I can understand that from that point of view, after all, I am a pro-footplate guy myself. However, that was the fun part of the shed originally. Walking in, you were almost immediately met with the buffers of the Dukedog from ground level. The attention was on the locos themselves with no iPads or screens. It was nice to walk around with no distractions in relative peace, just admiring the locos between trains. The dingy feeling ironically brought the locos more to life for me but I might be in the minority on that one.

I haven't changed my opinion on the Barry 4mt tank. It has been almost 50 years now in Bluebell possession and I don't want to hear one day it should be broken up for spares/scrapped because they kept promising an overhaul and left it too late. Any ex-BR standard loco is a valuable loco from an operations and maintenance point of view and an utter waste to scrap it.

But in all honesty, thank you for the clarifications, that you did raise about the Bluebell railway, I am glad to hear about the positive elements such as the coach restorations, and wish the line well in its restoration of that fleet .

 

[158760]

Firstly, I did say it was 'armchair manager' of me, but lets be fair, who hasn't done this at least once? These are more things that I have observed over the course of over 10 years watching the line go from one with so much potential when it got to East Grinstead to one that has become 'too safe' in all honesty, with some of its ideas and others having more questions than answers from an outsider's point of view.

When I say the phrase export railway, I don't mean it would spend the whole 10 years of a locomotive's ticket away from the Bluebell; at most, it should be 18months, unless the contract needs extending. Hiring out locos helps a railway's image and could do wonders for heritage lines that have one or two former main railway locos by providing steam traction should their native loco fail.

I still think in many regards, the line has raised more questions than answers in terms of its choices over the past decade. The cancelled SECR E class still seems a strange choice even post-cancellation of the project, when something like an SECR R1 would have still provided an excuse to machine parts and construct boilers that are compatible with the H class (should a spare boiler be built).

Also how confident should enthusiasts outside the Southeast be in terms of operational Bluebell locos visiting a line near them soon? The Adams Radial tank will be a brilliant loco once overhauled, but seeming as the H class did not leave the Bluebell on its last boiler ticket, is it worth getting enthusiasts' hopes up if it's most likely a one-off cameo at the Swanage railway? And how come the line has had to rely on a GWR Hall class for this long despite the Bluebell's claim to fame as the premier Southern railway collection?

I do, however, appreciate the steps the Bluebell has taken. I said about the Dukedog at the VOR museum, and the dry storage of P class '178' at Margate - I guess this balances out the space taken up by steamworks. I also read through the Bluebell Railway's overhaul page, and I am glad to see strategies for their locos' overhauls and statuses.

As for Steamworks, yes, I can understand that from that point of view, after all, I am a pro-footplate guy myself. However, that was the fun part of the shed originally. Walking in, you were almost immediately met with the buffers of the Dukedog from ground level. The attention was on the locos themselves with no iPads or screens. It was nice to walk around with no distractions in relative peace, just admiring the locos between trains. The dingy feeling ironically brought the locos more to life for me but I might be in the minority on that one.

I haven't changed my opinion on the Barry 4mt tank. It has been almost 50 years now in Bluebell possession and I don't want to hear one day it should be broken up for spares/scrapped because they kept promising an overhaul and left it too late. Any ex-BR standard loco is a valuable loco from an operations and maintenance point of view and an utter waste to scrap it.

But in all honesty, thank you for the clarifications, that you did raise about the Bluebell railway, I am glad to hear about the positive elements such as the coach restorations, and wish the line well in its restoration of that fleet .

Perhaps I was too harsh in my original reply - everyone does have their own ideas and plans, especially in the case of railways.

The E Class proposal was slightly before my time so I can’t add anything to that, other than there is a spare H/O1 boiler currently stored at Kingscote. You can see it from the train if you look out the right window heading to East Grinstead.

This year, both Fenchurch and the O1 have found their way onto Western Territory (WSR and GWSR respectively). The transport costs for moving large engines to other railways, especially further afield is very high, compared to “down the road” for some other railways in the South East. It’s more the decision of the respective railways to ask for an engine rather than the Bluebell’s to offer (unless an engine swap is taking place), but drifting slightly off topic there.

The Dukedog has to be retained by the railway. When it was brought to the railway in 1962, the Bluebell was still the only standard gauge passenger preserved railway in the UK. The engine was donated at a later date to the Bluebell Railway PLC, on the condition it remains normally based on the Bluebell. As you say, it is now on display at the VOR, with the original loan agreement being for two years. The intention is still to overhaul the engine, as it is in good condition.

The main issue which I forgot to mention last time is the lack of dedicated undercover storage for engines. Currently, engines out of traffic are stored all around the railway, with most being undercover except (off the top of my head so please do correct me) 80100, 92240 and Sharpthorn, which is under cosmetic restoration to go on display in Steamworks. Three engines are currently stored in the Sheffield Park Carriage Shed (OP3), unfortunately limiting space for carriages to be stored in there. But where do you build such a big project? Difficult question with no easy answer.

One 4MT tank (80064) left the railway back in 2023, although that was owned by the 80064 Locomotive Fund. The operational tank (80151) is owned by the 80151 Locomotive Company Limited, in which the Bluebell Railway Trust owns 40.3% of the shares, and actively seeks to buy the shares when they are sold. 80100 has been retained as a ‘strategic reserve engine’, being fully owned by the Bluebell Railway PLC.

And to bring this post back onto the topic of the thread, the first day of “Inspiration” has been very busy!

 

[A S Leib]

Are any sites in the East Midlands (GCR, Barrow Hill, Ecclesbourne Valley etc.) expecting particularly busy days next weekend from visitors making joint trips with Derby?

 

[Falcon1200]

Were you at the EVR last Friday?

I was indeed, Friday suiting me best, and also good for diesel traction. Glad that other days were busier though.

 

[Gooner18]

Perhaps I was too harsh in my original reply - everyone does have their own ideas and plans, especially in the case of railways.

The E Class proposal was slightly before my time so I can’t add anything to that, other than there is a spare H/O1 boiler currently stored at Kingscote. You can see it from the train if you look out the right window heading to East Grinstead.

This year, both Fenchurch and the O1 have found their way onto Western Territory (WSR and GWSR respectively). The transport costs for moving large engines to other railways, especially further afield is very high, compared to “down the road” for some other railways in the South East. It’s more the decision of the respective railways to ask for an engine rather than the Bluebell’s to offer (unless an engine swap is taking place), but drifting slightly off topic there.

The Dukedog has to be retained by the railway. When it was brought to the railway in 1962, the Bluebell was still the only standard gauge passenger preserved railway in the UK. The engine was donated at a later date to the Bluebell Railway PLC, on the condition it remains normally based on the Bluebell. As you say, it is now on display at the VOR, with the original loan agreement being for two years. The intention is still to overhaul the engine, as it is in good condition.

The main issue which I forgot to mention last time is the lack of dedicated undercover storage for engines. Currently, engines out of traffic are stored all around the railway, with most being undercover except (off the top of my head so please do correct me) 80100, 92240 and Sharpthorn, which is under cosmetic restoration to go on display in Steamworks. Three engines are currently stored in the Sheffield Park Carriage Shed (OP3), unfortunately limiting space for carriages to be stored in there. But where do you build such a big project? Difficult question with no easy answer.

One 4MT tank (80064) left the railway back in 2023, although that was owned by the 80064 Locomotive Fund. The operational tank (80151) is owned by the 80151 Locomotive Company Limited, in which the Bluebell Railway Trust owns 40.3% of the shares, and actively seeks to buy the shares when they are sold. 80100 has been retained as a ‘strategic reserve engine’, being fully owned by the Bluebell Railway PLC.

And to bring this post back onto the topic of the thread, the first day of “Inspiration” has been very busy!

On a side note does the bluebell still want to extend to Ardingly? I seem to remember that they have more or less purchased all the land required and that the tunnel is still in good condition

 

[158760]

On a side note does the bluebell still want to extend to Ardingly? I seem to remember that they have more or less purchased all the land required and that the tunnel is still in good condition

Maybe at some point in the future, but this is decades and not years. The trackwork at Horsted will be finished off this year down to “The Gap”, but that’s just because it’s easier to do it now than redoing it all in 20 years.

 

[Trainlog]

Perhaps I was too harsh in my original reply - everyone does have their own ideas and plans, especially in the case of railways.

The E Class proposal was slightly before my time so I can’t add anything to that, other than there is a spare H/O1 boiler currently stored at Kingscote. You can see it from the train if you look out the right window heading to East Grinstead.

This year, both Fenchurch and the O1 have found their way onto Western Territory (WSR and GWSR respectively). The transport costs for moving large engines to other railways, especially further afield is very high, compared to “down the road” for some other railways in the South East. It’s more the decision of the respective railways to ask for an engine rather than the Bluebell’s to offer (unless an engine swap is taking place), but drifting slightly off topic there.

The Dukedog has to be retained by the railway. When it was brought to the railway in 1962, the Bluebell was still the only standard gauge passenger preserved railway in the UK. The engine was donated at a later date to the Bluebell Railway PLC, on the condition it remains normally based on the Bluebell. As you say, it is now on display at the VOR, with the original loan agreement being for two years. The intention is still to overhaul the engine, as it is in good condition.

The main issue which I forgot to mention last time is the lack of dedicated undercover storage for engines. Currently, engines out of traffic are stored all around the railway, with most being undercover except (off the top of my head so please do correct me) 80100, 92240 and Sharpthorn, which is under cosmetic restoration to go on display in Steamworks. Three engines are currently stored in the Sheffield Park Carriage Shed (OP3), unfortunately limiting space for carriages to be stored in there. But where do you build such a big project? Difficult question with no easy answer.

One 4MT tank (80064) left the railway back in 2023, although that was owned by the 80064 Locomotive Fund. The operational tank (80151) is owned by the 80151 Locomotive Company Limited, in which the Bluebell Railway Trust owns 40.3% of the shares, and actively seeks to buy the shares when they are sold. 80100 has been retained as a ‘strategic reserve engine’, being fully owned by the Bluebell Railway PLC.

And to bring this post back onto the topic of the thread, the first day of “Inspiration” has been very busy!

Apology accepted. You have adressed these points very well.

I don't have much further to add to this reply on that front. Good to hear that most are undercover and with regards to the 9f that is more or less getting prepared to be overhauled anyway. From enjoying riding behind the one at the Great central railway that will indeed be a welcome loco once its up and running again.

A part of me was thinking about the line when I first saw this post earlier and had an idea regarding the Giants of Steam gala this year. If the theme of this year's gala is newbuilds, could it be possible for the line to invite Southwold Railway's 'Blyth' down to the line as a static display piece?

1. The loco isn't exactly in operational condition yet. But is a good cosmetic display piece, and wouldn't exactly take up much space in the grand scheme of things. Costs and truck logistics along with the agreement of the trust itself seem to be the main barriers from an outsiders perspective.
2. It would give the public a chance to see this newbuild loco in the flesh. The Southwold railway as it currently stands is little more than a display track with 'Blyth' in the yard. Its not worth yet going out of your way to visit but I am sure there are many that are curious to see the loco should an opportunity to see the loco at a more convenient location be available. This gala seems almost perfect an opportunity for it.
3. Though this idea is definitely bordering on armchair fanatsy. However, if the Southwold railway trust gave permission and it was secure, it would make a good flatwagon cameo behind something like Betton grange if a mixed freight train was run on the last day of the gala.

My final point for the Giants of steam gala this year as there is time to prepare - maybe some wooden donation boxes in the shape of a 'BR 2mt' at each of the stations would be a neat touch as this understably a good opportunity to fundraise for that loco and it allows for those that are spotting but not riding an opportunity to give back what they can to the line

Other than that, once again, thank you for clearing up my questions regarding the Bluebell railway.

 

[simonw]

England has the best offering of heritage railways worldwide in my view, although France and Germany do well. We can't omit Poland where last year I travelled on a steam loco in regular weekday service (amazing for 2024).

Your summer is half over, although the famous traditional August Bank Holiday period when visitor numbers to many attractions increase is yet to come. Ditto for what on some heritage railways are the all-important pre-Christmas Santa trains.

What 2025 patronage trends, if any, is a heritage railway in the UK with which you're familiar experiencing?

Are numbers up on 2024, and how might they compare to pre-Covid 2019?

Is the mix of families v couples v single travellers v group travel changing?

What's been the reaction of prospective passengers to any price rises for Day Rover or other tickets?

How have special events such as Steam or Diesel Galas, 1940s/1960s re-creations - increasingly a revenue mainstay from what I've read and from whom I've chatted to on visits - been going?

Many are acutely aware costs have risen markedly in the last six years: electricity (and gas?), coal for steam locos and more recently National Insurance costs for staff IIRC. I assume general insurance costs (including for buildings and public liability) have substantially risen.

Are your heritage railway's finances stabilising, improving, or (continuing to be) under pressure?

What about volunteer numbers that apparently post-Covid declined on many preserved railways?

The French have, certainly compared to the UK, a very small number of heritage railways.

 

[A S Leib]

The French have, certainly compared to the UK, a very small number of heritage railways.

I think the only countries with more than the UK in absolute terms are the US and possibly Germany, although with some (e.g. Isle of Man if counting it separately to Great Britain / + Northern Ireland) probably having more per capita even if excluding small countries with one.

 

[Gooner18]

Maybe at some point in the future, but this is decades and not years. The trackwork at Horsted will be finished off this year down to “The Gap”, but that’s just because it’s easier to do it now than redoing it all in 20 years.

I wonder whether in hindsight it would of been a cheaper route than connecting to East Grinstead

 

[158760]

I wonder whether in hindsight it would of been a cheaper route than connecting to East Grinstead.

Perhaps, but not the better choice. To reach Ardingly as it stands, two new bridges are needed, one at “The Gap” to span Station Approach and one at Hillhouse Farm. I’m not sure about the state of Lywood Tunnel, but I believe that will need to be bought out in order to run trains again. All that work to run trains to a stone terminal in the middle of nowhere. Compare that to East Grinstead, which is a good sized town with a frequent rail service to London and clearing Imberhorne Tip starts to look more appealing.

Passenger numbers, whilst not enormous, are still healthy through the rail connection, particularly at galas. Much better option than Ardingly.

 

[Belperpete]

On a side note does the bluebell still want to extend to Ardingly? I seem to remember that they have more or less purchased all the land required and that the tunnel is still in good condition

Considering that the line as it is is currently making significant losses, I can't see extending it and incurring further liabilities being a very high priority.

 

[father_jack]

The Severn Valley and its prior landslide (that's going to be the same post landslide !) policy of one diesel round trip for your money is very off putting. Representations to the railway on the matter were dismissed citing it as a "commercial decision".

 

[UP13]

Regarding the Steamworks at Sheffield Park, as soon as we got off the train yesterday the kids demanded to go there straight away even volunteering to forego lunch in the process...

It definitely works at hooking the younger generation and it's good to see these locos up close and under cover rather than at a distance in a siding.

For the old school enthusiasts, half the shed is still the same dinghy shed where you walk around the locos at ground level, so still something for everyone.

 

[railfan99]

any response will be entirely anecdotal.

Not if Board members/Trustees participate.

 

[DarloRich]

Not if Board members/Trustees participate.

I don't think they are going to share thier commercial data on a third party enthusiast site. I maintain my view.

To add my anecdotal data:

• All ok on the lines I have attended at both Galas and regular days. (NYMR/KWVR/Mid Hants/Wensleydale/SVR/Chinnor/GCR - maybe a couple more)
• No idea what the commercial impact or long term viability of "ok" is.
• No idea if "ok" has any baring on ticket prices.
• No idea what the demographic make up of passengers is beyond what I can see in my own carriage to which i would answer: a mix ( unless a gala when mostly men of an age)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jul 2025 ==

The Severn Valley and its prior landslide (that's going to be the same post landslide !) policy of one diesel round trip for your money is very off putting. Representations to the railway on the matter were dismissed citing it as a "commercial decision".

I don't understand - what is the complaint? That you have bought one return ticket and expect to travel all day?

 

[The exile]

I think the only countries with more than the UK in absolute terms are the US and possibly Germany,

Almost all German standard gauge set-ups rely on running agreements on little-used secondary lines they do not actually own. Many are on borrowed time as the infrastructure is quietly deteriorating underneath them and investment to improve the infrastructure will often only be forthcoming in connection with an upturn in traffic that may then squeeze them out. The narrow-gauge lines are a different kettle of fish entirely.

 

[Belperpete]

The Severn Valley and its prior landslide (that's going to be the same post landslide !) policy of one diesel round trip for your money is very off putting. Representations to the railway on the matter were dismissed citing it as a "commercial decision".

I too don't understand. According to their website, the Severn Valley offers "Freedom of the Line" all-day tickets.

 

[sash5000]

I too don't understand. According to their website, the Severn Valley offers "Freedom of the Line" all-day tickets.

I am assuming it is because the regular timetable only has one diesel hauled train a day; alongside two steam hauled trains and two trains formed of a DMU.

 

[Belperpete]

I am assuming it is because the regular timetable only has one diesel hauled train a day; alongside two steam hauled trains and two trains formed of a DMU.

So he's complaining that he should get the all-day ticket cheaper because he only intends to make one return journey?! Considering that the all-day ticket is already heavily discounted compared to ordinary singles and returns, I can see why they wouldn't want to offer a further discount.