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Over a month ago I received a Penalty Fare for not purchasing a ticket after the train had departed. Initially, I had planned to appeal, and submitted one, however, I quickly decided to pay the fine and withdrew my appeal.
Since then I received an email stating that my previous journeys are being investigated and have been requested to ...provide any evidence to support the claim that none of the above legislation has been contravened to prevent further action being contemplated. I have been given 7 days to respond. There was no mention of the journeys and amounts that are being investigated.
I am unsure what information I can provide or if it is something I should do. On the other hand I want to co-operate and have this matter resolved ASAP and am happy to pay any outstanding fares.
If anyone has any advice and / or guidance I would greatly appreciate it.
Can you provide more information regarding what journey you were on, with which train company, and the circumstances in which the PF was issued.
It sounds as though they have investigated your account and found something suspicious. You should not reply to the letter until you have seen what posters here have to say, as in most cases we advise not responding to avoid incriminating yourself.
Which train company are you dealing with? At this point, DO NOT reply to the email or even acknowledge it until you have read and understood what I've written below.
From what you've told us you were caught with a ticket irregulaity and issued with a Penalty Fare that was paid. This settles the matter in respect of that incident. The train company has searched your ticket purchasing history and found other suspicious activity and want to deal with tis.
Essentially you have two choices:
1. Do nothing. The train company will continue to write to you threatening police involvement, prosecution for fraud etc. The important principle here is that purchasing tickets is not illegal but using an invalid ticket is illegal. In order to successfully prosecute you the train company has to demonstrate to a court that you used the tickets and they are unlikely to be able to do this unless they caught you red handed. It's possible (but unlikley) that the train company does have evidence to link you to the use of the tickets such as CCTV.
2. Engage with the train company. They will offer you an out of court settlement costing if you pay them the fare for the journeys you've made using invalid tickets. They will charge you the full Anytime rate pnus ad admin fee, typically £150. If you pay what they ask that will be the end of the matter.
What the train company should have done is not given you a Penalty Fare when you were stopped but instead taken your details for further investigation. They would then have realised what was going on and could have either prosecuted you for the offence on the day when your were caught or offered you an our of court settlement covering all of the suspicious activity.
If you decide to go with option 1 then do not engage at all. Do not even aknowledge the email or letter because to do so risks incriminating yourself.
Only you can decide what to do. Essentially it comes down to your appetite for risk...
Can you provide more information regarding what journey you were on, with which train company, and the circumstances in which the PF was issued.
It sounds as though they have investigated your account and found something suspicious. You should not reply to the letter until you have seen what posters here have to say, as in most cases we advise not responding to avoid incriminating yourself.
Which train company are you dealing with? At this point, DO NOT reply to the email or even acknowledge it until you have read and understood what I've written below.
From what you've told us you were caught with a ticket irregulaity and issued with a Penalty Fare that was paid. This settles the matter in respect of that incident. The train company has searched your ticket purchasing history and found other suspicious activity and want to deal with tis.
Essentially you have two choices:
1. Do nothing. The train company will continue to write to you threatening police involvement, prosecution for fraud etc. The important principle here is that purchasing tickets is not illegal but using an invalid ticket is illegal. In order to successfully prosecute you the train company has to demonstrate to a court that you used the tickets and they are unlikely to be able to do this unless they caught you red handed. It's possible (but unlikley) that the train company does have evidence to link you to the use of the tickets such as CCTV.
2. Engage with the train company. They will offer you an out of court settlement costing if you pay them the fare for the journeys you've made using invalid tickets. They will charge you the full Anytime rate pnus ad admin fee, typically £150. If you pay what they ask that will be the end of the matter.
What the train company should have done is not given you a Penalty Fare when you were stopped but instead taken your details for further investigation. They would then have realised what was going on and could have either prosecuted you for the offence on the day when your were caught or offered you an our of court settlement covering all of the suspicious activity.
If you decide to go with option 1 then do not engage at all. Do not even aknowledge the email or letter because to do so risks incriminating yourself.
Only you can decide what to do. Essentially it comes down to your appetite for risk...
Which train company are you dealing with? At this point, DO NOT reply to the email or even acknowledge it until you have read and understood what I've written below.
From what you've told us you were caught with a ticket irregulaity and issued with a Penalty Fare that was paid. This settles the matter in respect of that incident. The train company has searched your ticket purchasing history and found other suspicious activity and want to deal with tis.
Essentially you have two choices:
1. Do nothing. The train company will continue to write to you threatening police involvement, prosecution for fraud etc. The important principle here is that purchasing tickets is not illegal but using an invalid ticket is illegal. In order to successfully prosecute you the train company has to demonstrate to a court that you used the tickets and they are unlikely to be able to do this unless they caught you red handed. It's possible (but unlikley) that the train company does have evidence to link you to the use of the tickets such as CCTV.
2. Engage with the train company. They will offer you an out of court settlement costing if you pay them the fare for the journeys you've made using invalid tickets. They will charge you the full Anytime rate pnus ad admin fee, typically £150. If you pay what they ask that will be the end of the matter.
What the train company should have done is not given you a Penalty Fare when you were stopped but instead taken your details for further investigation. They would then have realised what was going on and could have either prosecuted you for the offence on the day when your were caught or offered you an our of court settlement covering all of the suspicious activity.
If you decide to go with option 1 then do not engage at all. Do not even aknowledge the email or letter because to do so risks incriminating yourself.
Only you can decide what to do. Essentially it comes down to your appetite for risk...
It was London Northwestern - the email mentions WMR.
Just to clarify my point above, I DID purchase a ticket after the train had departed. I have not done this since.
I am looking to have the matter resolved. If I choose to go down the second path is it possible the matter still goes to court? Would you recommend taking legal advice before communicating and / or are there particular points to mention in the letter? As there is no mention of the journeys they are investigating I am not sure how to approach this.
West Midlands Trains operate trains using the London Northwestern and West Midlands Railway branding.
If you choose to go with option 2 in my post above they will offer you an out of court settlement. You would not be prosecuted (given what you've told us it is highl unlikely that they could prosecute you).
My view is there is no need to involve a solicitor. WMT will be happy to offer you a settlement, if for any reason they do not do this then that is the point when I would look to engage a solicitor.
West Midlands Trains operate trains using the London Northwestern and West Midlands Railway branding.
If you choose to go with option 2 in my post above they will offer you an out of court settlement. You would not be prosecuted (given what you've told us it is highl unlikely that they could prosecute you).
My view is there is no need to involve a solicitor. WMT will be happy to offer you a settlement, if for any reason they do not do this then that is the point when I would look to engage a solicitor.
Does anyone out there know if WMT issue this sort of "frightener" as a routine? It looks to me like a letter churned out to anyone they have previously caught, as it says nothing specific that applies to the OP. Buying tickets after boarding does officially break the law, but it's a very common thing to do in the age of smartphones and I'm certain most do it with no intention of depriving the rail company of income.
The OP shouldn't rush in to engage with WMT without very careful thought.
Was your journey actually from Wolverton, or was that the ticket you purchased to get through the barriers at MK?
If they see lots of tickets from Wolverton and you don’t live there, then if you want to settle with them (as you say in your first post) then you need to explain exactly what you were doing and apologise. They will then work out how much you owe them.
Was your journey actually from Wolverton, or was that the ticket you purchased to get through the barriers at MK?
If they see lots of tickets from Wolverton and you don’t live there, then if you want to settle with them (as you say in your first post) then you need to explain exactly what you were doing and apologise. They will then work out how much you owe them.
Presumably the Penalty Fare drew attention to the OP and the investigation unit have gone fishing.
Forum advice in these circumstances seems to be to remain silent unless they make a specific allegation and threaten prosecution or other legal action.
Perhaps also the communication should be treated as a warning not to indulge in technically illegal behaviour such as buying tickets after a train has departed even where the full price has been paid.
Presumably the Penalty Fare drew attention to the OP and the investigation unit have gone fishing.
Forum advice in these circumstances seems to be to remain silent unless they make a specific allegation and threaten prosecution or other legal action.
Perhaps also the communication should be treated as a warning not to indulge in technically illegal behaviour such as buying tickets after a train has departed even where the full price has been paid.
Presumably LNW use the same processes (maybe even the same team) we see from WMR - where this fishing is clearly pretty standard practice for them now or so it seems from the number of WMR cases on the forum - often based on very little 'evidence' before they start to send accusatory messages.
Presumably LNW use the same processes (maybe even the same team) we see from WMR - where this fishing is clearly pretty standard practice for them now or so it seems from the number of WMR cases on the forum - often based on very little 'evidence' before they start to send accusatory messages.
Presumably LNW use the same processes (maybe even the same team) we see from WMR - where this fishing is clearly pretty standard practice for them now or so it seems from the number of WMR cases on the forum - often based on very little 'evidence' before they start to send accusatory messages.
there doesn't seem to be any sense in you responding at all - they've not put any specific allegations to you, so it would be unwise to respond.
ignore, wait for any further correspondence.
"you must respond within 7 days" is particularly silly.
there doesn't seem to be any sense in you responding at all - they've not put any specific allegations to you, so it would be unwise to respond.
ignore, wait for any further correspondence.
"you must respond within 7 days" is particularly silly.
After referring to the initial incident and reporting the matter to the relevant department this is what they wrote
Further investigations into this matter have been carried out, including a full review of the ticket records. It would appear, at this stage, that this may be a case of fraud.
West Midlands Trains take travel fraud extremely seriously and is committed to prosecuting all cases of fare evasion to the full extent of the law. Travelling on the railway with the intent to avoid paying the full fare is an offence under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. Such an offence carries a maximum fine of £1,000 and/or three months’ imprisonment and, in either case, a criminal record. It must also be considered whether this matter amounts to a much more serious offence under the Fraud Act 2006.
At this stage we would be grateful if you would provide any evidence to support the claim that none of the above legislation has been contravened to prevent further action being contemplated.
Please respond within the next 7 days from the date of this letter to avoid further escalation.
I have re-read but still unsure how I would proceed.
After referring to the initial incident and reporting the matter to the relevant department this is what they wrote
Further investigations into this matter have been carried out, including a full review of the ticket records. It would appear, at this stage, that this may be a case of fraud.
West Midlands Trains take travel fraud extremely seriously and is committed to prosecuting all cases of fare evasion to the full extent of the law. Travelling on the railway with the intent to avoid paying the full fare is an offence under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. Such an offence carries a maximum fine of £1,000 and/or three months’ imprisonment and, in either case, a criminal record. It must also be considered whether this matter amounts to a much more serious offence under the Fraud Act 2006.
At this stage we would be grateful if you would provide any evidence to support the claim that none of the above legislation has been contravened to prevent further action being contemplated.
Please respond within the next 7 days from the date of this letter to avoid further escalation.
I have re-read but still unsure how I would proceed.
Only you know what, if anything, you may have done wrong.
Only they (the train company) know what evidence, if any, they may have.
So, other than ignoring it on the basis/in the hope that they haven't any evidence, your alternative course of action could be to respond by asking them for the basis of their concern.
It's the bog standard email we see very often on here. It's deliberate in it's vagueness so that the OP likely infers something they don't mean to and drop themselves in to something.
Of course, if the OP hasn't committed any offences they can easily not respond to this or the future emails that will come.
Only you know what, if anything, you may have done wrong.
Only they (the train company) know what evidence, if any, they may have.
So, other than ignoring it on the basis/in the hope that they haven't any evidence, your alternative course of action could be to respond by asking them for the basis of their concern.
Only you know what, if anything, you may have done wrong.
Only they (the train company) know what evidence, if any, they may have.
So, other than ignoring it on the basis/in the hope that they haven't any evidence, your alternative course of action could be to respond by asking them for the basis of their concern.
This is always by far the best course of action if you haven't done anything wrong. People end up in a terrible mess by engaging on these topics, when in reality, there's nothing to be gained by discussing anything with anyone.
Yes, if its at all similar to my case (similar to yours) you’ll receive an email entitled ‘Final Warning’ tomorrow, with some information they’ve decided is correct. After another 7 days, you’ll receive another email? This is another warning, advising they’re transferring you to their prosecutions dept. and i haven’t heard anything in the 2-3 weeks since then. If your address is the same one you gave to the RPI, and the email they sent you doesn’t apply to you in any meaningful sense, then you really don’t have anything to worry about for now.
We are aware of an issue with emails from the Forum to Microsoft-based email accounts (hotmail/outlook/live.com email addresses). This is being looked into currently, thanks for your patience meanwhile.
