Southampton to Gatwick route via Havant

[LondonJohn]

Can anybody tell me if you get a Single or Return from Southampton Central to Gatwick Airport with a routing via Havant can you get the SWT service from Havant to Clapham Junction and then change to a Southern train to Gatwick.

I asked the ticket agent at Southampton Central and he said that was not possible. He said that the ticket was valid on the direct Southern trains only. I asked him why it didnt state that on the ticket and he said he didnt make the rules.

Was he right or wrong ?

 

[southerner2174]

If you want to go via Clapham Junction then there is a slightly more expensive routing 'Clapham Junction not London' ticket
Im guessing you were told the correct information but werent told about the routing options

 

[Paul Kelly]

Travelling to Clapham Junction via Havant (and thence direct to Gatwick without going into London) is not shown as a valid route for Southampton Group to Gatwick Airport in the routeing guide, so I would say the answer is no (this goes for "CLAPHAM J NOT LDN" and "ANY PERMITTED" tickets as well as those routed "HAVANT"). Going to Clapham Junction via Havant is however a valid route for Southampton Group to London - so if you use the "LONDON" maps but change short of London (i.e. in this case at Clapham Junction) it would be possible. There has been some debate on here recently about whether this sort of thing is valid. It looks to me like this case is evidence that it isn't valid.

 

[dzug2]

I'm slightly surprised that it's 'route Havant'. Until I looked it up I thought it was 'route Barnham'

Doesn't mean it has to be a Southern service - you could for example use FGW to Brighton and FCC from there. But the through Southern trains are the most sensible way.

 

[John @ home]

Travelling to Clapham Junction via Havant is not shown as a valid route for Southampton Group to Gatwick Airport in the routeing guide

I don't agree. The Routeing Guide shows that LONDON is a Permitted Route for Southampton Group - Gatwick Airport. It also shows that CW+PD is a Permitted Route for Southampton Group - London Group, and that LB is a Permitted Route for London Group - Gatwick Airport. For a Southampton Central - Gatwick Airport journey, this therefore allows:

CW: Southampton Group - Portsmouth Group - Havant.
PD: Havant - Haslemere - Godalming - Guildford - (Woking or Oxshott) - Surbiton - Wimbledon - Clapham Jn - (Victoria or Waterloo).
LB: Waterloo (East) - London Bridge - New Cross Gate - Forest Hill - Croydon Group - Redhill Group - Gatwick Airport.

This is therefore a Permitted Route when using a Southampton Central - Gatwick Airport route Havant ticket.

 

[Paul Kelly]

OK - I saw that too and agree that if you are allowed to change short of London while using the London maps, then it is valid. But the recent discussion (e.g. towards the end of this thread) made me think that you must travel via a London Terminal when using "LONDON" mapped routes. Although thinking about it a bit more, route "HAVANT" does not seem to preclude going via London anyway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Update: I didn't read John's post properly. I am in agreement that it is allowed to go via Victoria or Waterloo on the route HAVANT ticket. Just whether you can change at Clapham Junction and avoid London is the more debateable point for me. This thread contains some interesting discussion too.

 

[MichaelAMW]

OK - I saw that too and agree that if you are allowed to change short of London while using the London maps, then it is valid. But the recent discussion (e.g. towards the end of this thread) made me think that you must travel via a London Terminal when using "LONDON" mapped routes. Although thinking about it a bit more, route "HAVANT" does not seem to preclude going via London anyway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Update: I didn't read John's post properly. I am in agreement that it is allowed to go via Victoria or Waterloo on the route HAVANT ticket. Just whether you can change at Clapham Junction and avoid London is the more debateable point for me. This thread contains some interesting discussion too.

It would be hard to detect, of course, as you could change at Clapham Junction on either the travelling towards or away from London bit, depending on whether you used Victoria or Waterloo as your London terminal. Indeed, you could go Havant - CLJ - VIC ... WAT - CLJ - Gatwick, so you'd change both times!

 

[MikeWh]

It would be hard to detect, of course, as you could change at Clapham Junction on either the travelling towards or away from London bit, depending on whether you used Victoria or Waterloo as your London terminal. Indeed, you could go Havant - CLJ - VIC ... WAT - CLJ - Gatwick, so you'd change both times!

Surely that's doubling back through CLJ? The route suggested a few posts ago was careful to go in via CLJ and out via LBG.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Surely that's doubling back through CLJ? The route suggested a few posts ago was careful to go in via CLJ and out via LBG.

I believe that there are easements allowing doubling back between Waterloo or Victoria and Clapham Junction.

Just checked: nos. 700013 & 700014.

 

[MikeWh]

Ah, Ok. My mistake. I did wonder why John had been so careful to avoid doing so though.

 

[John @ home]

Surely that's doubling back through CLJ? The route suggested a few posts ago was careful to go in via CLJ and out via LBG.

Yes. In addition the ticket is routed HAVANT, so in my opinion these three Easements don't apply:

58 Tickets routed via London may be used to double back between Clapham Junction and Waterloo.

700013 Tickets with the following route codes may be used to double back between Clapham Junction and London Victoria. (Any Permitted, London, London Not Underground, Not Valid on HS1, AP London Woking)

700014 Tickets with the following route codes may be used to double back
between Clapham Junction and London Waterloo. (Any Permitted, London,
London Not Underground, Not Valid on HS1, AP London Woking)

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/easements.pdf

I happen to agree with MikeWh in Invalid ticket from ticket machine that you can use map combinations via LONDON without actually going to London but I tried to be careful not to re-open that debate.

 

[infobleep]

I believe that there are easements allowing doubling back between Waterloo or Victoria and Clapham Junction.

Just checked: nos. 700013 & 700014.

I was amazed to find this out. I was heading to a one day seminar near Euston last year. I was starting from Guildford but wished to end up in Haywards Heath afterwards. Clearly a travel card was no good. So whilst I was working out the best way to make this journey, I happened to notice that it was valid for me to get a train to Clapham Junction, go up to Victoria and then back down to Haywards Heath, passing through Clapham Junction twice and still only pay £16.10 or there abouts! So a ticket marked via Clapham Junction would allow me to break my journey at a London Terminal!

I enquired with national rail enquires and they could see it was possible but could not understand why it was one price for 6.53 from Guildford but on the 7.17 it jumped to £24. They passed my query on to South West Trains but I never heard back and wasn't too bothered to chase it up.

I guess it only worked because both trains stopped at Clapham Junction, whether I got off or not. The 7.17 from Guildford didn't stop at Clapham Junction on the way up and thus was not valid because you had to stop their twice. Hence the increase in price.

Of course if you look at the terms and conditions on the National Rail Enquries Web Site for said ticket, it said: "Outward: Route of ticket CLAPHAM JUNCTION - Travel must involve passing through or changing at Clapham Junction but NOT London Terminals"

Well both train services passed through Clapham Junction, so that validated that condition for the ticket but both allowed changing at London Terminals which invalidated the other condition. Yet the ticket was shown as being available for sale and was accepted when I broke my journey at London Victoria, which I would be entitled to do as most fast services south only go to Clapham Junction to pick up, not set down. In the end I had a nice enjoyable walk from Victoria to Euston across London. Made a change to taking the tube.