15-cars in St Pancras platform 3 this lunchtime (21/07)?

[reduke]

Just arrived on the Corby about 12:20 today, and there was a train sticking out of platform 3 a long way.

5 car train at the south end, then another 10 cars to the north of it, not coupled up to it. Also a much larger than usual queue of people for that time of day.

Looks like 5F37 had just arrived - possibly mis-formed at Cricklewood as 10 cars instead of 5?

Anyone know what was going on?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Presume an overlength train (or trains) berthed at platform 3 at London St. Pancras International doesn't necessarily foul / block access to/from platforms 1, 2 or 4 for Midland Mainline trains?

 

[zwk500]

Presume an overlength train (or trains) berthed at platform 3 at London St. Pancras International doesn't necessarily foul / block access to/from platforms 1, 2 or 4 for Midland Mainline trains?

Depends how much overlength, and where the clearing points are in relation to the track circuits. A quick look at the diagrams suggests Platform 4 would be locked out by anything staying the wrong side of the signal, as the track circuit boundary is very close to the points (but these diagrams aren't 100% detailed so could still be fine). Platform 1 and 2 have the scissors (assuming that route is allow for P2) so could cope with something poking out a bit further, although there looks to only be 5-7chains before the track circuits on the Scissors would be locked out as well.

Starting from beyond the signal will also be a pain for the overlength train.

 

[43066]

Presume an overlength train (or trains) berthed at platform 3 at London St. Pancras International doesn't necessarily foul / block access to/from platforms 1, 2 or 4 for Midland Mainline trains?

Correct. The train was booked as a five but departed Cricklewood as a ten, and was then brought in on top of a five car.

It’s not yet known why the driver was seemingly unaware of their train length.

 

[357]

Correct. The train was booked as a five but departed Cricklewood as a ten, and was then brought in on top of a five car.

It’s not yet known why the driver was seemingly unaware of their train length.

Apparently they were convinced that they were driving a 5 car. I have it on good authority the signaller even called them and asked the length long before they got anywhere near St Pancras, and they insisted that the train was only 5 coaches.

I sign another member of the 22X family, and the TMS screensaver is literally bouncing text with "X-Car". I'd guess there is a software difference with a 222, was perhaps a software failure or (hopefully not) they simply didn't look?

 

[DelW]

Correct. The train was booked as a five but departed Cricklewood as a ten, and was then brought in on top of a five car.

It’s not yet known why the driver was seemingly unaware of their train length.

Would the train on the stops have been visible to the incoming driver when they passed the last signal? If not, they could have been expecting to run into an empty platform, and saw it too late to do anything other than continue into the platform.

It happened to a train I was on, going into Waterloo early on a Saturday morning a decade or more ago. Fortunately there weren't many passengers on board, and we got off the train via the door from the leading cab (under supervision).

 

[Sheridan]

Would the train on the stops have been visible to the incoming driver when they passed the last signal? If not, they could have been expecting to run into an empty platform, and saw it too late to do anything other than continue into the platform.

It happened to a train I was on, going into Waterloo early on a Saturday morning a decade or more ago. Fortunately there weren't many passengers on board, and we got off the train via the door from the leading cab (under supervision).

A driver would only be signalled into an occupied platform permissively, meaning a subsidiary signal is used with the main aspect remaining at danger. If the platform was empty then they’d presumably receive a single yellow at the last signal.

People with knowledge of the area/rolling stock will be able explain exactly what they could and couldn’t deduce from the way they were signalled into the platform.

 

[zwk500]

Would the train on the stops have been visible to the incoming driver when they passed the last signal? If not, they could have been expecting to run into an empty platform, and saw it too late to do anything other than continue into the platform.

It happened to a train I was on, going into Waterloo early on a Saturday morning a decade or more ago. Fortunately there weren't many passengers on board, and we got off the train via the door from the leading cab (under supervision).

If the platform is occupied by anything the 2nd driver would receive a subsidiary (calling-on) aspect. If the platform had been unoccupied they'd have received a yellow main aspect. So the 2nd driver would 100% have known that *something* was in the platform from the aspect. The aspect won't tell them how long the occupying train is though.

 

[MCR247]

If the platform is occupied by anything the 2nd driver would receive a subsidiary (calling-on) aspect. If the platform had been unoccupied they'd have received a yellow main aspect. So the 2nd driver would 100% have known that *something* was in the platform from the aspect. The aspect won't tell them how long the occupying train is though.

Although in this case I don’t think it’d be normal for a 10 car set to share a platform with anything at St Pancras

EDIT: Not be critical of the driver, of course. These things happen and if anything it says a lot about train drivers as a profession how relatively rare this kind of thing is.

 

[43066]

Would the train on the stops have been visible to the incoming driver when they passed the last signal? If not, they could have been expecting to run into an empty platform, and saw it too late to do anything other than continue into the platform.

It happened to a train I was on, going into Waterloo early on a Saturday morning a decade or more ago. Fortunately there weren't many passengers on board, and we got off the train via the door from the leading cab (under supervision).

The train in the platform wouldn’t have been visible, but the driver would have received a “calling on” signal, which indicates the platform is occupied. You wouldn’t query that in a five car, but there’s no way it’s possible to take a ten car Meridian into an occupied platform at St Pancras.

The driver could/should have called the signaller up at that point as the signaller may not have been aware of the train length. That certainly suggests that the driver *thought* they were in a five car train, and either didn’t call the signaller, or called them and (incorrectly) confirmed that they were a five car.

Although in this case I don’t think it’d be normal for a 10 car set to share a platform with anything at St Pancras

Correct.

 

[zwk500]

Although in this case I don’t think it’d be normal for a 10 car set to share a platform with anything at St Pancras

Indeed not. A 10-car might just about fit on top of a light loco but not much else.

 

[357]

The aspect won't tell them how long the occupying train is though.

That's why in locations without Lime Street Controls I always ring the box and ask. This policy has served me well and I'm yet to put 15 cars into a platform.

 

[MCR247]

Correct. The train was booked as a five but departed Cricklewood as a ten, and was then brought in on top of a five car.

It’s not yet known why the driver was seemingly unaware of their train length.

Out of curiosity do you know how the situation was resolved? From a quick check on RTT it doesn’t seem like it caused much disruption with the Sheffield departure leaving on time still and I think Nottingham arrival still getting into Platform 4

 

[Royston Vasey]

Reading the thread title, I fully expected this to be yet another misunderstood RTT glitch along the lines of 22 car Pendos, Azuma and 225 running in multiple, and now 15 car 222s on a Nottingham! But no, it's real!

 

[43066]

Out of curiosity do you know how the situation was resolved? From a quick check on RTT it doesn’t seem like it caused much disruption with the Sheffield departure leaving on time still and I think Nottingham arrival still getting into Platform 4

It should have been easy enough to split the ten car in the platform (both intermediate cabs would be platformed), and for a driver to walk through the rear unit to the un platformed rear cab and drive that unit back to Cricklewood. The signaller would need to confirm via the GSMR that the route was set and give authority to proceed because the cab would be beyond the starter.

 

[GordonT]

Out of curiosity do you know how the situation was resolved? From a quick check on RTT it doesn’t seem like it caused much disruption with the Sheffield departure leaving on time still and I think Nottingham arrival still getting into Platform 4

1F37 the 1232 to Sheffield was delayed by 57ms and turned short at Derby.

 

[Sheridan]

Without wanting to get too far off-topic, presumably Liverpool Lime Street has been resignalled since the advent of ‘Lime Street Control(s)’. Does the current incarnation still have them?

 

[43066]

That's why in locations without Lime Street Controls I always ring the box and ask. This policy has served me well and I'm yet to put 15 cars into a platform.

Indeed. If it’s a ten car going into Pancras, you’re ringing the box and basically telling them you can’t fit! It isn’t unknown for trains to be chopped and changed in Cricklewood and West Hampstead box to be unaware.

IIRC there’s now an instruction that you can take a seven car meridian into a platform with a four car 360 during degraded working. But this would need to be queried. A ten car meridian won’t physically fit on top of anything else that EMR or TL run into the station.

 

[357]

Without wanting to get too far off-topic, presumably Liverpool Lime Street has been resignalled since the advent of ‘Lime Street Control(s)’. Does the current incarnation still have them?

Very good question!

I am surprised that Kings Cross didn't get it when resignalled a few years ago, but I'd hope that ETCS has similar protections built in.

 

[43066]

Apparently they were convinced that they were driving a 5 car. I have it on good authority the signaller even called them and asked the length long before they got anywhere near St Pancras, and they insisted that the train was only 5 coaches.

I sign another member of the 22X family, and the TMS screensaver is literally bouncing text with "X-Car". I'd guess there is a software difference with a 222, was perhaps a software failure or (hopefully not) they simply didn't look?

You don’t get the bouncing “X-Car” in the 222s, but you only need to tap the screen to get the formation once you’ve logged in.

You can take them into service with the cab TMS unserviceable but you’d need to manually check the length if starting from Cricklewood, as it’s impossible to tell whether the unit behind is coupled by looking back if it’s pulled up close.

 

[Supercoss]

The interlocking at St Pancras high level is quire strange in the fact that yes it allows platform sharing, permissive working however each platform has two track circuits and once both of these are occupied you can not then signal permissively into them,
example - 4 car class 360 at buffer stop, you can signal an eight car towards occupied plat
8 car class 360 at buffer stop ( occupies both track circuits) it is not possible to signal a 4 car permissible towards the occupied platform.
So not truly permissive compared to some locations.
on nights with class 222s berthed in the station 10 car length, although room to accommodate a tamper or MPV in clear of platform starting signal interlocking doesn’t permit the move.

On days the single car viu class 153 sometimes stable on the buffer stop end with class 222 platform sharing.

I’ve never had an explanation why true permissive working is not available.

 

[reduke]

... Not be critical of the driver, of course. These things happen and if anything it says a lot about train drivers as a profession how relatively rare this kind of thing is.

Indeed, I only posted this thread out of curiosity as I'd never seen anything like this before, definitely don't want it to become a blame game!

I was more amazed that I was able to arrive at all until I looked at the distance from the points I'd come across.

 

[357]

You don’t get the bouncing “X-Car” in the 222s, but you only need to tap the screen to get the formation once you’ve logged in.

You can take them into service with the cab TMS unserviceable but you’d need to manually check the length if starting from Cricklewood, as it’s impossible to tell whether the unit behind is coupled by looking back if it’s pulled up close.

Same as an older Electrostar when put into night/dark mode. The later Electrostars helpfully have the train length in grey text on the dark screen whereas earlier ones are completely blank.

 

[43066]

Same as an older Electrostar when put into night/dark mode. The later Electrostars helpfully have the train length in grey text on the dark screen whereas earlier ones are completely blank.

That is a useful feature. Although I can just imagine that some would complain about the formation display being distracting at night. Probably the same with the bouncing x-car.

A good technique in the meridians is to always tap the TMS when approaching a station stop to confirm length.

 

[357]

That is a useful feature. Although I can just imagine that some would complain about the formation display being distracting at night. Probably the same with the bouncing x-car.

A good technique in the meridians is to always tap the TMS when approaching a station stop to confirm length.

Some people complain about anything... The same people tend to be the ones who make mistakes like this.

 

[ThreeIfByAir]

I've seen this before at London Bridge terminating platforms before the rebuild. 8-car train called on into a 12-car platform with 8 occupied. We had to walk through the train to alight.

I'm assuming that London Bridge in the nineties didn't have any way of telling trains whether the platform had four or eight coaches in it...

 

[43066]

I've seen this before at London Bridge terminating platforms before the rebuild. 8-car train called on into a 12-car platform with 8 occupied. We had to walk through the train to alight.

I'm assuming that London Bridge in the nineties didn't have any way of telling trains whether the platform had four or eight coaches in it...

No indeed. And neither does St Pancras in 2025!

The system still works in basically the same way: the track circuits in the platforms show as occupied (hence approaching trains will get a calling on signal rather than a main aspect), but that isn’t enough to determine precise train lengths. Hence the reliance on people not making mistakes.

 

[LCC106]

@357 It seems your good authority may not be as good as you think from what I’ve heard. Be interesting to hear the tapes to know if that’s correct.

 

[357]

@357 It seems your good authority may not be as good as you think from what I’ve heard. Be interesting to hear the tapes to know if that’s correct.

As a driver, this is one of those situations when you do hope it really isn't as initially reported.

As always, it'll all come out in the report. Anything else on this forum is always going to be speculation until that point. It's why these threads are normally locked after some initial discussion.

You of all people will have your ear closer to the ground than most on this forum and will already know what's happened. How much it's worth commenting publicly is another matter.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Im still a little puzzled at this, and please let me know where I've misunderstood things, but the aforementioned 5F37 on Monday seemingly didn't arrive into St Pancras until around 1322 (an hour late) and ran similarly late for most of its journey from Cricklewood, however the OP described it as being there when he or she arrived at 1220.

Realtime Trains | 5F37 1205 Cricklewood A To E Sidings to St Pancras International | 21/07/2025

Real-time train running information for 5F37 1205 departure from Cricklewood A To E Sidings to St Pancras International on 21/07/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

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