TV show: 1980 Battle for the British Decker

[ClydeCoaster]

MAN has never supplied a decker to the UK market, though. As for Scania, you might want to watch the video again...

They supplied one... East Lancs Kinetic+ bodied RX07RKV - an 18.240 with H50/29F layout. Entered service with Reading Buses but was withdrawn and sold by 2011, spending some time in Greenock with Pride of The Clyde. Last I knew of it Weavaway had it in an American Greyhound livery with the registration BU51 USA. Appears to be SORN now. Remained unique and the killer point seemed to be it's exceptionally low height and poor upper deck headroom.

 

[Leyland Bus]

They supplied one... East Lancs Kinetic+ bodied RX07RKV - an 18.240 with H50/29F layout. Entered service with Reading Buses but was withdrawn and sold by 2011, spending some time in Greenock with Pride of The Clyde. Last I knew of it Weavaway had it in an American Greyhound livery with the registration BU51 USA. Appears to be SORN now. Remained unique and the killer point seemed to be it's exceptionally low height and poor upper deck headroom.

Looks alot like a low low height Spectra...

 

[GusB]

They supplied one... East Lancs Kinetic+ bodied RX07RKV - an 18.240 with H50/29F layout. Entered service with Reading Buses but was withdrawn and sold by 2011, spending some time in Greenock with Pride of The Clyde. Last I knew of it Weavaway had it in an American Greyhound livery with the registration BU51 USA. Appears to be SORN now. Remained unique and the killer point seemed to be it's exceptionally low height and poor upper deck headroom.

RIght enough! What I should have said was that MAN didn't supply a decker at the time the programme was made.

 

[citybus2500]

RIght enough! What I should have said was that MAN didn't supply a decker at the time the programme was made.

Apart from the 500+ that were in service in Berlin at that time.

 

[GusB]

Apart from the 500+ that were in service in Berlin at that time.

Irrelevant, given that the programme was discussing the UK situation.

 

[Trainman40083]

MAN has never supplied a decker to the UK market, though. As for Scania, you might want to watch the video again...

Just that MAN East Lancs Kinetic that appeared at the bus show at the NEC. Did it then work for Reading Buses?

 

[overthewater]

Did anyone else take note of what Carl Von Wedel Director from M.A.N Said in his interview from 25m 44seconds, Unfortunley he got it BADLY wrong: Even with the cost of motoring going up people weren't switching to bus. I wonder if he was just bluffing for the camara or he really believed that, if so how did he managed to misjudge the UK.

 

[GusB]

Did anyone else take note of what Carl Von Wedel Director from M.A.N Said in his interview from 25m 44seconds, Unfortunley he got it BADLY wrong: Even with the cost of motoring going up people weren't switching to bus. I wonder if he was just bluffing for the camara or he really believed that, if so how did he managed to misjudge the UK.

In what way did he get it badly wrong?

While it's fair to say that bus patronage was in decline at the time when the programme was made, he wasn't in any position to predict what would happen a few years down the line; nor were the bosses of UK manufacturers!

While MAN supplied a few artics to South Yorkshire for evaluation, Von Wedel probably got it right in that there was no point in trying to supply double-deckers to the UK when that market was already well served by domestic companies; any attempt by a foreign manufacturer to break in to the UK market when most bus companies were publicly-owned would have been met with considerable resistance. If MAN had tied up with Alexander, East Lancs, Metro-Cammell or Northern Counties the situation may well have been different, but it would still have been difficult.

It's too easy to look at things through modern, de-regulated eyes.

 

[KevinBrum12]

It is a fascinating documentary to watch, given how things turned out both for the bus manufacturers and bus operators. At the time it was made, there were no thoughts of deregulation of local bus services, although even at that stage the Thatcher Government must have been desperate to get both British Leyland and the National Bus Company off the books. Indeed, the BL senior management at the time led by Sir Michael Edwardes had started to sell off bits of the corporation and were reorganising it.

David Quarmby came across as a bit of a berk. He did lead the franchising of London Buses and the privatisation of the operating units. But he was lucky to keep his job after that interview. Had a rather more hard-line Secretary of State for Transport had been in place at the time the programme was broadcast coupled with Sir Horace Cutler (who was very Thatcherite and leading the GLC) he'd have been asked to "explore opportunities outside the public transport sector".

Glossed over was MCW's collaboration with Scania in the 1970's, which was the way the Swedish company had entered the UK market and had led to the Metropolitan which had been successful in taking some orders from Leyland, especially when operators were despairing of getting parts from Leyland or the buses they'd ordered (which led to the Volvo Ailsa too).

It did not look it in 1980, but Dennis were the long-term winner. The Dominator became South Yorkshires standard bus of the 80's and it showed the company understood what the customer wanted. While MCW were collapsing in the late 80's (caused in part by the warranty issues from the Metrorider minibus) and Leyland Bus was being subsumed into Volvo Dennis were developing the Dart, which has proved to be more of a commercial success than any of the buses shown in the film.

Somehow I do not think the current dumbed down BBC would commission a programme about the UK bus manufacturing industry today, with the threats from the Chinese manufacturers like BYD. To paraphrase Judith Hann, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that the High Streets of the UK will be filled with Chinese built double-deckers rather than British ones...

 

[GusB]

It is a fascinating documentary to watch, given how things turned out both for the bus manufacturers and bus operators. At the time it was made, there were no thoughts of deregulation of local bus services, although even at that stage the Thatcher Government must have been desperate to get both British Leyland and the National Bus Company off the books. Indeed, the BL senior management at the time led by Sir Michael Edwardes had started to sell off bis of the corporation and were reorganising it.

While de-regulation of local services didn't happen until a few years later, I'm sure it was at the back of the mind of the ruling government at the time; express service de-regulation was certainly on the cards.

Glossed over was MCW's collaboration with Scania in the 1970's, which was the way the Swedish company had entered the UK market and had led to the Metropolitan which had been successful in taking some orders from Leyland, especially when operators were despairing of getting parts from Leyland or the buses they'd ordered (which led to the Volvo Ailsa too).

There was certainly no mention of the Metro-Scania or the Metropolitan in the documentary, although Scania does get a mention. Sweden's involvement in the UK bus market at that time was interesting because it wasn't a member of the EEC and didn't accede to the EU until 1995.

It did not look it in 1980, but Dennis were the long-term winner. The Dominator became South Yorkshires standard bus of the 80's and it showed the company understood what the customer wanted. While MCW were collapsing in the late 80's (caused in part by the warranty issues from the Metrorider minibus) and Leyland Bus was being subsumed into Volvo Dennis were developing the Dart, which has proved to be more of a commercial success than any of the buses shown in the film.

Dennis certainly outlived Leyland and MCW, with its Trident (and Enviro 400 derivative) selling well, but we now find ourselves in the situation where BYD, Yutong and, to an extent, Volvo are slightly ahead of the game in the double-deck market.

It depends how you define long-term, I suppose!

Ultimately, it illustrates that no manufacturer can rest on its laurels and that hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

[overthewater]

In what way did he get it badly wrong?

Better late than never. What he got wrong was, he believed the UK would follow the continent, because of the increase costs in motoring and the cuts in the railways then people would have to turn to the bus.

Michael Rodd asked why he thinks that and even said to Carl Von Wedel that may will be true in EU but it not happening in the UK.

Carl double down on his views, the trouble was, he was clearly used logic but had no understanding of the brits, yet Michael Rodd know what was going on.

 

[overthewater]

Just to ask did London actually like the Volvo Ailsa? Why did it take them 10 years to test them out on Capital road. Mind you I'm sure if London had placed an order for 200-400 they would have still built them, or maybe the video creator is just grasping at straws?

 

[PG]

Just to ask did London actually like the Volvo Ailsa? Why did it take them 10 years to test them out on Capital road. Mind you I'm sure if London had placed an order for 200-400 they would have still built them, or maybe the video creator is just grasping at straws?

On the face of it a front engined, forward entrance, full-height decker suitable for either one person or conductor operation sounds ideal for London during the late 70s/early 80s. The ease of building a rear staircase with no engine there for extra brownie points too.

Hopefully someone with further knowledge can enlighten us?

 

[KevinBrum12]

On the face of it a front engined, forward entrance, full-height decker suitable for either one person or conductor operation sounds ideal for London during the late 70s/early 80s. The ease of building a rear staircase with no engine there for extra brownie points too.

Hopefully someone with further knowledge can enlighten us?

If London were looking at the Ailsa as a Routemaster replacement with a rear entrance and rear staircase, events moved along quickly enough to put the brakes on such a project.

Firstly, the "Fairs Fare" affair with the High Court ruling against the GLC. The immediate aftermath was substantive fare rises and London Transport discovering they had too many buses. Crew operated DMS's and Routemasters were picked for withdrawal to save money.

Then LT and the GLC launched the Travelcard, which was an off-bus ticket that could be purchased from shops and tube stations. The Travelcard was not that revolutionary; WMPTE introduced their Travelcard in 1973 and it was used as a tool to increase one person operated buses (and the Ailsa as far as West Midlands was concerned was an OPO bus). With LT Travelcards selling well the undertaking found that dwell times for OPO routes, even in Central London, reduced. By 1986 London Buses were able to reduce the number of Routemasters needed, which released sufficient RM's to be sold outside London as a nippy tool that could be used in deregulation against operators that did not have their own Travelcard and relied on drivers taking fares and giving change.

Last but not least London Regional Transport getting their feet under the table. London Buses had managed to start an Alternative Vehicle Evaluation before LRT got settled, and the specially designed Ailsa was part of that. However. LRT was tasked with ensuring London buses was more efficient, so took the view that it was up to the operators winning or London Buses Limited subsidiaries winning London contracts to decide what buses to use to meet the contract specification, not be told what buses to buy. This is how LBL subsidiary Harrow Buses ended up with second hand Ailsa's from West Midlands and leased MKII Metrobuses, but cheap and nasty LBL BexleyBus used DMS Fleetlines and some of the new contractors like Capifal Citybus were using second hand Metrobuses that had started their careers in Tyne and Wear and South Yorkshire (or Boro'line using buses they could beg or borrow from anywhere).

Aldenham, which carried out London bus overhauls was closed with operators now using facilities elsewhere. Overhauling Routemasters in Rotherham for London and elsewhere proved to be a nice little earner for SYT!!!

The late 80's/early 90's era in London is fascinating.