Through ticket dearer than individual tickets - why?

[grepwird]

An Anytime Day Return from Kensal Rise to Woking is £30.60 (according to various Journey Planners).

A Mildmay Overground Line ticket from Kensal Rise to Clapham Junction is in Zone 2 only so costs £2.10 each way.
And a Clapham Junction to Woking Anytime Day Return is £21.70.

So buying separately for each leg costs £25.90 compared to £30.60. Why is this?

I can't see why I can't pay the cheaper fare, even if I had to exit the barriers at CLJ and re-enter. In fact, if I stay inside the barriers I presumably just need to touch in on a pink card reader to 'exit' from the Overgound.

Maybe off-topic, but buying the CLJ to Woking ticket online, how do I use it to exit the barriers at Woking - i.e. can I load it onto a mobile app that can be scanned at the barrier?

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is split ticketing, which often does save money, even in very simple cases where it really shouldn't. It is completely legitimate in the UK (though illegal in the Republic of Ireland!)

There are many sales sites which will work these splits out for you e.g. the Forum's own version of Trainsplit. Trainline also does it to a basic level. You can do it with Oyster/contactless too but obviously have to actually tap at both ends, I don't know about pink readers as I don't think I've ever used one! To show your tickets you can either buy physical ones or e-tickets, it being a split doesn't change anything in this sense.

If you buy an e-ticket you are sent it as a PDF to present (printed or on a screen) and in most cases can also show in an app or as an Apple/Google Wallet pass.

 

[Trainbike46]

An Anytime Day Return from Kensal Rise to Woking is £30.60 (according to various Journey Planners).

A Mildmay Overground Line ticket from Kensal Rise to Clapham Junction is in Zone 2 only so costs £2.10 each way.
And a Clapham Junction to Woking Anytime Day Return is £21.70.

So buying separately for each leg costs £25.90 compared to £30.60. Why is this?

I can't see why I can't pay the cheaper fare, even if I had to exit the barriers at CLJ and re-enter. In fact, if I stay inside the barriers I presumably just need to touch in on a pink card reader to 'exit' from the Overgound.

Pink readers are only used to indicate what route you've taken to Oyster/Contactless system; you cannot touch out by using a pink reader. If you split your ticket using oyster or contactless, you need to touch in and out a yellow cardreader at the appropriate points; this may require exiting the barriers.

This is split ticketing, which often does save money, even in very simple cases where it really shouldn't. It is completely legitimate in the UK (though illegal in the Republic of Ireland!)

How can it be illegal in the Republic?

 

[grepwird]

Thanks @Bletchleyite! In fact, Trainsplit (which I hadn't heard of) gives several options, different prices for the same off-peak journey, and the cheapest is £28.48. I'm very confused.

 

[cholsey-choose]

Yeah this is split ticketing. It's a pain but often saves money. You can see how it could happen for example if there are discounted fares for 'local' journeys... chain together several local journeys and you get the discount!

It also works for air travel, by the way. Often cheaper to book a flight to a major hub airport then a separate connecting flight.

 

[Benjwri]

you need to touch in and out a yellow cardreader at the appropriate points; this may require exiting the barriers.

A pink reader will tap you in, but you are correct will not tap you out.

At Clapham to tap out the OP will have to exit and then renter the barriers.

 

[plugwash]

So buying separately for each leg costs £25.90 compared to £30.60. Why is this?

Fares get messy because you have lots of different companies acting in a not particularly coordinated manner. You have two entirely different systems for charging for travel going on here. The traditional rail ticketing system, where you buy your ticket before travelling. Fares are generally set by the "main" TOC for the route. Then you have the oyster/contactless pay as you go system. Fares are set by some agreement between transport for London and the rail operators.

TFL has to accept traditional tickets on overground services because the overground is part of national rail, but they aren't particularly fond of them. They would rather everyone used pay as you go. TFL also suffers from the problem that their services through central London can get very crowded, while outside central london

Presumablly as a result of this, Off-peak travel on TFL services outside zone 1 using pay as you go is very cheap and even peak travel is not especially expensive.

I presumably just need to touch in on a pink card reader to 'exit' from the Overgound.

You cannot "exit" using a pink reader. I understand it is possible to "enter" using one but this is not officially advertised.

Yellow readers or gates should be used for entry/exit. I'm not sure if clapham junction has any

Maybe off-topic, but buying the CLJ to Woking ticket online, how do I use it to exit the barriers at Woking - i.e. can I load it onto a mobile app that can be scanned at the barrier?

The retailer should tell you how your ticket is to be delivered. Some tickets can be delivered as "e-tickets", which can be printed on your own printer, or displayed on a mobile device. Others cannot be issued in this way and will be issued as a collection code to print the tickets at a ticket machine. (there are other ticket types too, but these are the main two nowadays)

 

[zero]

There should be a yellow reader on Platform 17 at Clapham Junction, although it is probably faster to exit and re-enter from the Platform 1 end of the station.

 

[tbtc]

It seems stupid, to members of the public. You wouldn't expect a "meal deal" to cost more than the individual prices of the sandwich plus snack plus drink

But it happens (often) on the railways because local authorities/ assemblies/ parliaments etc will (sometimes) subsidise fares within their area

So, in this case, Kensal Rise to Clapham Junction - a distance of nearly ten miles - costs just a couple of quid - subsidised by the Mayor/ GLA ( i.e. ultimately by London taxpayers)

They only fund journeys within their neck of the woods though, which is why passengers to Woking pay the 'full price'

Various people start threads on here proposing some simplified fares system, with maximum prices per mile etc, but as long as you are comfortable with local government subsidising local fares then you'll get these anomalies

Expecting the GLA to contribute towards cheaper tickets from places like Woking into London could be seen as unfair to London taxpayers (and the cost may be significant, if every longer distance journey into/ through London had to be partly paid for through the locals' council tax etc)

So split ticketing (buying a journey up to the station closest to the boundary that your service stops at, plus a second one to cross the boundary) seems a necessary evil

Sites, like the one attached to this forum, will sell you tickets to deal with it, but I can't see a way of avoiding all anomalies (unless we stop Mayors etc from subsidising local travel)

Another way of looking at it is that the Kensal Rise - Woking fare is the 'normal' one. But I appreciate that this won't help, and will perpetuate the impression that train dates are expensive/ complicated etc

 

[Bletchleyite]

How can it be illegal in the Republic?

The railways generally would like to ban it because it saves money, same as airlines ban some similar tricks or make them awkward. However if I recall rightly BR brought a legal case against someone who did it years ago and lost. However court decisions in the UK do not set precedent for the Republic of Ireland (or any other independent country) so unless challenged in their legal system they can still ban it.

 

[Trainbike46]

The railways generally would like to ban it because it saves money, same as airlines ban some similar tricks or make them awkward. However if I recall rightly BR brought a legal case against someone who did it years ago and lost. However court decisions in the UK do not set precedent for the Republic of Ireland (or any other independent country) so unless challenged in their legal system they can still ban it.

I completely accept your point regarding legal precedent from the UK not being relevant outside the UK, whether in ROI or elsewhere.

How could you possibly ban someone from using a ticket on A-B and one on B-C, provided the train stops in B? You could potentially even leave and re-enter the train.
My point being, how could they write a rule that bans split ticketing without also banning various 'normal' passenger behaviours, such as visiting a station for a short time. Especially splits at interchange points seem impossible to ban - how do you know what a passenger did before boarding the train, and how is it relevant?

It may not be as relevant in the Republic as their train fares are generally quite a bit lower than in the UK.

 

[grepwird]

Many thanks to all for your replies. I learned the exact details of what to do plus the background to the current messy situation.

 

[Hadders]

The £2.10 fare between Kensal Rise and Clapham Junction is on contactless, ie £4.20 for the return and to obtain this fare you have to touch in and out on a yellow card reader of exit the station and re-enter.

A traditional paper ticket between Kenal Rise and Clapham Junction (via Kensington Olympia) is £14 return so in this case it is only cheaper to split if you use contactless between Kensal Rise and Clapham Junction.

 

[Haywain]

How could you possibly ban someone from using a ticket on A-B and one on B-C, provided the train stops in B? You could potentially even leave and re-enter the train.

It is expressly prohibited in the IE Conditions of Carriage, as quoted below:

11. Re-booking at intermediate stations
11.1 Except where specially authorised, passengers are not permitted to re-book at an intermediate station for the purpose of continuing their journey by the same train. Two or more tickets covering different portions of one journey are not available unless the fares paid for such tickets are equivalent in amount to the price of a single journey ticket between the same points. Any passenger using two or more tickets covering different portions of one journey will be liable to pay the full ordinary single fare for the journey made and he or she may be liable to prosecution.

 

[Snow1964]

Thanks @Bletchleyite! In fact, Trainsplit (which I hadn't heard of) gives several options, different prices for the same off-peak journey, and the cheapest is £28.48. I'm very confused.

Part of the complication is there are multiple routes available, as well as changing at Clapham junction, could take the Overground to Richmond then go either to Clapham Junction, or via Kingston loop to Wimbledon, or even via Chertsey. Some are slower.

It would also be possible to go via the more expensive central London zone 1.

Where you get multiple routes, even split ticketing sites tend to miss or exclude some of the more creative solutions, unless you force them to look by specifying via x station.

 

[Trainbike46]

It is expressly prohibited in the IE Conditions of Carriage, as quoted below:

Thank you for sharing that!

Unfortunate to see such an unreasonable condition is included

 

[Adam Williams]

Where you get multiple routes, even split ticketing sites tend to miss or exclude some of the more creative solutions, unless you force them to look by specifying via x station.

Unfortunately, external constraints set by the rail industry's chosen suppliers make it impossible to do a truly exhaustive/comprehensive search.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thank you for sharing that!

Unfortunate to see such an unreasonable condition is included

BR wanted it, but unfortunately for them a court decided otherwise

 

[MarlowDonkey]

It is expressly prohibited in the IE Conditions of Carriage, as quoted below:

It doesn't seem to prevent split ticketing when you change trains. There may be less scope for that in the Republic outside of Dublin.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It doesn't seem to prevent split ticketing when you change trains. There may be less scope for that in the Republic outside of Dublin.

It would be pretty difficult to prevent that as you could just argue it was two separate journeys and leave and re-enter the station between the trains.

The only thing they could do (and some European railways do do, as do basically all airlines) is refuse any connection protection if buying two tickets, that is if you miss your connection you have to pay again and if the last connection is missed the taxi is on yourself, unlike the policy on such matters in the UK.

 

[AlterEgo]

How can it be illegal in the Republic?

It's in IE's conditions of carriage:

11.1 Except where specially authorised, passengers are not permitted to re-book at an intermediate station for the purpose of continuing their journey by the same train. Two or more tickets covering different portions of one journey are not available unless the fares paid for such tickets are equivalent in amount to the price of a single journey ticket between the same points. Any passenger using two or more tickets covering different portions of one journey will be liable to pay the full ordinary single fare for the journey made and he or she may be liable to prosecution.

As to "how" it's illegal - well, The Republic of Ireland is a sovereign country with different laws, there's your answer.

 

[zero]

Plenty of laws in all countries are unenforceable in practice. Does Ireland have scannable e-tickets yet?

The difference with airlines is that having the wrong ticket may be a criminal offence in the UK (not sure about Ireland) while circumventing an airline's terms and conditions is just a civil breach of contract.

Furthermore, airlines are for the most part compulsory reservation, have tickets linked to names requiring ID, and often require disembarkation and reboarding at every stop.

 

[berneyarms]

Plenty of laws in all countries are unenforceable in practice. Does Ireland have scannable e-tickets yet?

The difference with airlines is that having the wrong ticket may be a criminal offence in the UK (not sure about Ireland) while circumventing an airline's terms and conditions is just a civil breach of contract.

Furthermore, airlines are for the most part compulsory reservation, have tickets linked to names requiring ID, and often require disembarkation and reboarding at every stop.

Yes we do have scannable e-tickets in Ireland.

Fare evasion can lead to a criminal conviction in Ireland.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jul 2025 ==

How can it be illegal in the Republic?

Last time I checked, Ireland is an independent sovereign republic with its own laws and regulations.

 

[cholsey-choose]

Last time I checked, Ireland is an independent sovereign republic with its own laws and regulations.

I had a snarky remark amounting to the same thing above, but I think the question was more like, in practice how can doing it be banned?

TBF I do think we are lucky here in the UK that with split tickets we are protected from missed connections etc. It'd be fair for it to be a "do it at your own risk" type deal.

 

[zero]

Yes we do have scannable e-tickets in Ireland.

Fare evasion can lead to a criminal conviction in Ireland.

I think the question was more like, in practice how can doing it be banned?

So IÉ could do a trainline and trawl through purchase history. I don't think many stations in Ireland have barriers but where relevant, a guard/RPI could ask how one got through barriers if they had the capability to detect lack of scanning.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So IÉ could do a trainline and trawl through purchase history. I don't think many stations in Ireland have barriers but where relevant, a guard/RPI could ask how one got through barriers if they had the capability to detect lack of scanning.

Funnily enough my Trainline history contains quite a lot of tickets from MKC to Bletchley, most of which will lack an entry scan. None of these are short faring, however, rather they have been purchased to extend other tickets when I have decided to continue by train from MKC instead of a taxi or bus home (but none of those tickets would have been purchased from Trainline). I'm in a way actually surprised I haven't had one of those letters yet, though if they did would easily be able to dig out the bookings for the other bit of the journey related to it.

Of course that would be allowed on CIE anyway as it involves a change of train.

 

[Trainbike46]

Last time I checked, Ireland is an independent sovereign republic with its own laws and regulations.

To you, and others making similar comments - I am aware of the Republic of Ireland being an independent country that isn't (and shouldn't be) part of the United Kingdom. This is why I refered to the country as "the Republic" repeatedly.

Rereading my message I don't understand what I wrote that made people (wrongly) believe that I thought the 26 counties were part of the UK, because I don't see what I said comes even close to implying that? What am I missing?

I had a snarky remark amounting to the same thing above, but I think the question was more like, in practice how can doing it be banned?

I was in fact asking after how this could be done in practice. Haywain answered that very clearly by pointing towards the exact condition in Iarnród Éireann's conditions of carriage that ban the practice known as split-ticketing in England, Wales, and Scotland.

TBF I do think we are lucky here in the UK that with split tickets we are protected from missed connections etc. It'd be fair for it to be a "do it at your own risk" type deal.

Agreed it is nice, though the fact that in a lot of places across Europe split ticketing is effectively enforced due to through tickets not being offered, it does kind of hurt when you can't buy through tickets, and you don't get connection protection because you didn't buy through tickets!

 

[cholsey-choose]

Rereading my message I don't understand what I wrote that made people (wrongly) believe that I thought the 26 counties were part of the UK, because I don't see what I said comes even close to implying that? What am I missing?

Many British people are fully aware theoretically that Ireland is an independent country (though they are often ignorant of many of the details), but quite often react with a kind of shock and surprise when Ireland dares to do something differently to the UK. You often see a kind of similar attitude from many Americans towards European countries including the UK ("you guys don't have free speech!"). At first glance your comment read in that kind of way.

 

[Trainbike46]

Many British people are fully aware theoretically that Ireland is an independent country (though they are often ignorant of many of the details), but quite often react with a kind of shock and surprise when Ireland dares to do something differently to the UK. You often see a kind of similar attitude from many Americans towards European countries including the UK ("you guys don't have free speech!"). At first glance your comment read in that kind of way.

Thank you for explaining!

I'd hope that my location would make clear that I don't fall in that category, but I guess it didn't.

 

[cholsey-choose]

It seems stupid, to members of the public. You wouldn't expect a "meal deal" to cost more than the individual prices of the sandwich plus snack plus drink

A lot of commerical offers can sound silly if you stop and think about them! Why should how much a sandwich costs depend on what else you are buying, for example? Of course it makes sense when you realise the commercial logic (to make the supermarket a desirable lunch destination, or at least less awful). There's often a logic to it in the railway too (to give discounts on certain under-used routes). Split ticketing is also often very useful when you can have one ticket at peak and one off-peak, or to make yourself a cheap day return on a long distance journey.

I'd hope that my location would make clear that I don't fall in that category, but I guess it didn't.

I'd hesitate to presume anything about someone in a Nebraskan ghost town, tbh