What's this train on a London Bridge departure board?

[sprunt]

A friend has just seen this departure on the board at London Bridge:



Image description: a departure board showing a service departing at 23:45 to Victoria, calling at East Croydon and Victoria

There's no passenger service showing on RTT for 23:45, but there is an ECS movement (or two, I'm not sure if one is just a possible variation of the other) - could this somehow have become corrupted in the departure board system and ended up on the screen like this?

 

[MrJeeves]

This is Y31938: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Y31938/2025-07-18/detailed

It seemingly ran to Crystal Palace from London Bridge at 2228, then a points failure meant it diverted back to London Bridge to then run fast to East Croydon in order to get to Victoria.

 

[Poggs]

This is Y31938: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Y31938/2025-07-18/detailed

It seemingly ran to Crystal Palace from London Bridge at 2228, then a points failure meant it diverted back to London Bridge to then run fast to East Croydon in order to get to Victoria.

I'm impressed that it ran as a Class 2 all the way through, rather than terminating at CYP and running as a Class 5 VSTP.

 

[Deepgreen]

This is Y31938: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Y31938/2025-07-18/detailed

It seemingly ran to Crystal Palace from London Bridge at 2228, then a points failure meant it diverted back to London Bridge to then run fast to East Croydon in order to get to Victoria.

So it reversed in service at East Croydon towards a different London terminus? A rarity.

 

[physics34]

So it reversed in service at East Croydon towards a different London terminus? A rarity.

Most drivers dont sign the 'Leigham Spur' and the Atlantic line is cut off at the Battersea Park end so this is the only alternative route now.. unless it went empties via Stew Lane.

 

[Horizon22]

This is Y31938: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Y31938/2025-07-18/detailed

It seemingly ran to Crystal Palace from London Bridge at 2228, then a points failure meant it diverted back to London Bridge to then run fast to East Croydon in order to get to Victoria.

Presumably it started going booked route though, arriving at Crystal Palace on time. Could it not have not reversed back at Sydenham if it needed to go to East Croydon and then onto Victoria? Even West Croydon may have been an option. Certainly taking it all the way to London Bridge seems extreme, unless there were possessions impacted.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Presumably it started going booked route though, arriving at Crystal Palace on time. Could it not have not reversed back at Sydenham if it needed to go to East Croydon and then onto Victoria? Even West Croydon may have been an option. Certainly taking it all the way to London Bridge seems extreme, unless there were possessions impacted.

How's it going to reverse at Sydenham?

 

[Deepgreen]

How's it going to reverse at Sydenham?

Or why, as the Crystal Palace line would take it down to Norwood Junction?

 

[Horizon22]

How's it going to reverse at Sydenham?

By going from where it came from; change ends in Crystal Palace platform, then a wrong directional move to Sydenham P2, change ends there and continue towards East Croydon.

Presumably the train arrived at Crystal Palace P4 with a points failure preventing it moving ahead.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jul 2025 ==

Or why, as the Crystal Palace line would take it down to Norwood Junction?

Not if it was already in platform at Crystal Palace P4 (as per RTT).

 

[stadler]

It is so ridiculous that the curve between Norwood Junction and Selhurst is not allowed to be used in passenger service. It is a perfectly good double track railway but apparently it is not signalled for passenger use. It would be so useful for occassions like this and also for engineering work. This train simply could have gone round the curve from Norwood Junction to Selhurst rather than doing this out of the way East Croydon reversal.

 

[Surreytraveller]

By going from where it came from; change ends in Crystal Palace platform, then a wrong directional move to Sydenham P2, change ends there and continue towards East Croydon.

Presumably the train arrived at Crystal Palace P4 with a points failure preventing it moving ahead.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jul 2025 ==



Not if it was already in platform at Crystal Palace P4 (as per RTT).

A wrong direction move onto a busy mainline wouldn't be allowed if there was another signalled move available back to London Bridge, which was the case here

 

[Surreytraveller]

Or why, as the Crystal Palace line would take it down to Norwood Junction?

You cannot get from where the train was (Sydenham Spur Line) to Norwood Junction

 

[Galvanize]

So it reversed in service at East Croydon towards a different London terminus? A rarity.

Exactly this.

When I worked on the Platform at London Bridge years ago, in times of serious disruption I remember similar services operated. Can’t exactly remember what the circumstances were behind the running of said services, one occasion it was a 2Fxx (London Bridge-Victoria via Crystal Palace) service commandeered to work this service, another time it was a 2Hxx (London Bridge-Beckenham Junction) service stepped up!

 

[Horizon22]

A wrong direction move onto a busy mainline wouldn't be allowed if there was another signalled move available back to London Bridge, which was the case here

At 2300? And also onto the Slow line not the Fast lines. I get that it would be an odd move, but so is running it all the way back to London Bridge!

 

[Surreytraveller]

It is so ridiculous that the curve between Norwood Junction and Selhurst is not allowed to be used in passenger service. It is a perfectly good double track railway but apparently it is not signalled for passenger use. It would be so useful for occassions like this and also for engineering work. This train simply could have gone round the curve from Norwood Junction to Selhurst rather than doing this out of the way East Croydon reversal.

The driver here may not have signed through the depot; other trains that evening went via the Leigham Spur, so the fact this train didn't indicates the driver didn't sign it, so likely wouldn't have signed through Selhurst Depot either.
The lines through Selhurst Depot aren't Network Rail infrastructure either, they are part of the depot complex

 

[Surreytraveller]

At 2300? And also onto the Slow line not the Fast lines. I get that it would be an odd move, but so is running it all the way back to London Bridge!

You'd have to detrain at Crystal Palace with no station staff available to assist, make the wrong direction move at a slow speed, bringing all other trains to a stand while it occurred. Change ends again at Sydenham. Running in service also avoids leaving passengers stranded.
Far quicker (and safer, as it's a signalled move) to just to run it in service to London Bridge.
Making an unsignalled move should only be a last resort, not to be used when other moves are available.

 

[Horizon22]

You'd have to detrain at Crystal Palace with no station staff available to assist, make the wrong direction move at a slow speed, bringing all other trains to a stand while it occurred. Change ends again at Sydenham. Running in service also avoids leaving passengers stranded.
Far quicker (and safer, as it's a signalled move) to just to run it in service to London Bridge.
Making an unsignalled move should only be a last resort, not to be used when other moves are available.

All other trains? There wouldn't be much traffic Sydenham - Crystal Palace that time of day. It's on its own spur.

But I do take your point, however it other circumstances the driver may have been over hours. 1 hour late into Victoria isn't that bad overall!

 

[Surreytraveller]

All other trains? There wouldn't be much traffic Sydenham - Crystal Palace that time of day. It's on its own spur.

But I do take your point, however it other circumstances the driver may have been over hours. 1 hour late into Victoria isn't that bad overall!

All other trains between London Bridge and Norwood Junction would have to be brought to a stand on the mainline, preferably in stations, and as there's no platforms on the fast lines, you'd be blocked back to St Pancras.
Whilst an unsignalled move is undertaken, that is the only train which is allowed to move.
Even at 23.00 there are still plenty of trains about.

 

[zwk500]

All other trains? There wouldn't be much traffic Sydenham - Crystal Palace that time of day. It's on its own spur.

But I do take your point, however it other circumstances the driver may have been over hours. 1 hour late into Victoria isn't that bad overall!

Making an unsignalled move is still an absolute last resort. If running to London Bridge was too much there is a signalled reverse just north of New Cross Gate. Running wrong-road either side of Sydenham would have potentially involved stopping traffic over quite a wide area on the relevant slow lines. The nearest next signals that could be used to control a movement are at New Cross gate on the Down side and Norwood Junction on the Up side.

 

[Deepgreen]

You cannot get from where the train was (Sydenham Spur Line) to Norwood Junction

Good point - I hadn't noticed it was in p4 rather than p2.

 

[Horizon22]

Making an unsignalled move is still an absolute last resort. If running to London Bridge was too much there is a signalled reverse just north of New Cross Gate. Running wrong-road either side of Sydenham would have potentially involved stopping traffic over quite a wide area on the relevant slow lines. The nearest next signals that could be used to control a movement are at New Cross gate on the Down side and Norwood Junction on the Up side.

I did have a look at see whether going via P1 would be possible but then the southbound move from there I presume would still be unsignalled?

 

[zwk500]

I did have a look at see whether going via P1 would be possible but then the southbound move from there I presume would still be unsignalled?

From OTTs layouts that's correct. There is no bi-directional signalling between East Croydon and New Cross Gate. There are only shunt moves at Norwood Junction for the depot.

 

[LA50041]

At 2300? And also onto the Slow line not the Fast lines. I get that it would be an odd move, but so is running it all the way back to London Bridge!

There was an overground train already at Sydenham in the platform and they run every 15 minutes to Crystal Palace so that would not have been possible, even if it was tried. Easier to run a signalled move than risk an operational incident on an un-signalled move that would've crippled the railway,

 

[zwk500]

There was an overground train already at Sydenham in the platform and they run every 15 minutes to Crystal Palace so that would not have been possible, even if it was tried. Easier to run a signalled move than risk an operational incident on an un-signalled move that would've crippled the railway,

Especially an unsignalled move over that length, and in the light of a recent unsignalled move at Bletchley!

 

[Surreytraveller]

I did have a look at see whether going via P1 would be possible but then the southbound move from there I presume would still be unsignalled?

The points failure prevented the train moving forward. You would need to use the same points to shunt via platform 1. The only options were wait (which would have still been preferable to an unsignalled move), or reverse and go back towards London Bridge.

 

[Horizon22]

The points failure prevented the train moving forward. You would need to use the same points to shunt via platform 1. The only options were wait (which would have still been preferable to an unsignalled move), or reverse and go back towards London Bridge.

I mean Sydenham P1. But yes, it seems like reversal to London Bridge (or New Cross Gate maybe) is the only option given the layout, which seems rather a long way.

 

[zwk500]

I mean Sydenham P1. But yes, it seems like reversal to London Bridge (or New Cross Gate maybe) is the only option given the layout, which seems rather a long way.

Sydenham to New Cross Gate is 3-4 minutes for a non-stop train, c.9-10 minutes from Sydenham to London Bridge. But importantly, you can do that while keeping reactionary impact to a minimum. The train just slots into the flow of traffic and circulates. Passengers could always be given the opportunity to alight at Sydenham if needed.

 

[Horizon22]

Sydenham to New Cross Gate is 3-4 minutes for a non-stop train, c.9-10 minutes from Sydenham to London Bridge. But importantly, you can do that while keeping reactionary impact to a minimum. The train just slots into the flow of traffic and circulates. Passengers could always be given the opportunity to alight at Sydenham if needed.

Yeah I did think if it was running express it might be lucky enough to do it in just 10-15 minutes.

 

[zwk500]

Yeah I did think if it was running express it might be lucky enough to do it in just 10-15 minutes.

Yeah, probably more towards 15 minutes once you've waited for the gap. But better than an unsignalled move across 3 junctions!