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Railcard Advertising. (is it legal?)

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yorksrob

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If rail is no use for the average person, why does the average person subsidise it so much?

I'm sure I read that over 50% of the population take the train at least once a year, so rail is far from being "of no use" to the average person.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

What is the point of a railcard, is it to give a "frequent traveller" discount, or is it to attract journeys to the railway which wouldn't normally be done on the railway?

It should be the first. The industry confuses itself when it tries to pretend otherwise.
 
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I think it's a pretty clever form of market segmentation. Offer reduced prices to certain groups who might not otherwise take the train (some money is better than no money!) and/or can be bothered to pay for a discount card.
 

miami

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I think it's a pretty clever form of market segmentation. Offer reduced prices to certain groups who might not otherwise take the train (some money is better than no money!) and/or can be bothered to pay for a discount card.

Except it doesn't target those who don't take the train, it targets frequent leisure train users - ones that the train happens to work for and that are happy to take the downsides of taking the train.

The tiny minority who who use the train frequently for leisure purposes (not commuting or business or once or twice a year) get discounts. Those who might use the train for the occasional trip to a city every three or four months don't get a discount, so they instead drive, as the fare is 50% more than the frequent user.

Surely the better approach would be to give a free railcard to everyone, but with a maximum number of uses. This would encourage people who wouldn't otherwise use the train.
 
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Except it doesn't target those who don't take the train, it targets frequent leisure train users - ones that the train happens to work for and that are happy to take the downsides of taking the train.

The tiny minority who who use the train frequently for leisure purposes (not commuting or business or once or twice a year) get discounts. Those who might use the train for the occasional trip to a city every three or four months don't get a discount, so they instead drive, as the fare is 50% more than the frequent user.

This hasn't been my experience with eg family and friends railcard. Anecdotally I know a few people who get really good value out of this for family outings or weekends away a couple of times a year (admittedly at my suggestion). Buying fares for 2 adults and 2 kids is normally so expensive that many people would drive without the very generous discount from this card.

Surely the better approach would be to give a free railcard to everyone, but with a maximum number of uses. This would encourage people who wouldn't otherwise use the train.

This is an interesting proposal... but I think it'd be a nightmare to administer. Would it only go to those resident in the UK? Would a separate card be sent out every year? Without a national id card I just can't see it working. With a compulsory national id card like on the continent it could work.
 

redreni

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This hasn't been my experience with eg family and friends railcard. Anecdotally I know a few people who get really good value out of this for family outings or weekends away a couple of times a year (admittedly at my suggestion). Buying fares for 2 adults and 2 kids is normally so expensive that many people would drive without the very generous discount from this card.



This is an interesting proposal... but I think it'd be a nightmare to administer. Would it only go to those resident in the UK? Would a separate card be sent out every year? Without a national id card I just can't see it working. With a compulsory national id card like on the continent it could work.
Maybe more for speculative discussion. My immediate reaction is there are so many people who never take the train, that it would be trivially easy for regular travellers to get them to get a free Railcard which they could then illicitly borrow, once they had reached the limit on the number of tickets they could buy on their own free Railcard.
 
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Maybe more for speculative discussion. My immediate reaction is there are so many people who never take the train, that it would be trivially easy for regular travellers to get them to get a free Railcard which they could then illicitly borrow, once they had reached the limit on the number of tickets they could buy on their own free Railcard.

Right, that's the kind of thing that wouldn't work with a European-style national ID card that you are required to carry at all times. But absent that, I can't see it being workable!
 

J663738

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I often thought when you see how empty some trains are during the non rush hour periods, any system that encourages use, but prevents an overall net loss of income should be tried.

I remember standing on Bath platform and over hearing two blokes talking about where one of them would be going to go on their day off tomorrow, he couldn't decide if it would be Cornwall or London. You just knew they were railway staff as normal rail travellers, unless stinking rich could not make last minute choices like that on rail journeys!
 

redreni

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I often thought when you see how empty some trains are during the non rush hour periods, any system that encourages use, but prevents an overall net loss of income should be tried.

I remember standing on Bath platform and over hearing two blokes talking about where one of them would be going to go on their day off tomorrow, he couldn't decide if it would be Cornwall or London. You just knew they were railway staff as normal rail travellers, unless stinking rich could not make last minute choices like that on rail journeys!
Road planners clearly have a similar thought process, hence TfL introducing peak and off-peak tolls on the Blackwall and Silvertown tunnels and talking about variable road user charging aimed at nudging people away from travelling at peak times.

Trouble is, if I am travelling to work I have limited flexibility as to when I travel. If I am travelling to an event I have next to no flexibility. The quiet times are quiet because few people are willing and able to travel at those times.
 

Sonic1234

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What is the point of a railcard, is it to give a "frequent traveller" discount, or is it to attract journeys to the railway which wouldn't normally be done on the railway?
It's many things, which is why the scheme has got so confusing. It's a targeted subsidy for certain groups (young people, disabled), it's a marketing tool for encourage off peak travel (young people, senior, Network), to form habits (young people), it's a bulk buy discount (Two together, family) and a political move (veterans, 26-30, Forces).

Off peak, on some routes, it's rare to find a non-railcard holder travelling (the London Zones being the exception to this). Is that because single 31-60 year olds find the fares too high, have other means of travel which they favour or have travel needs which the railway doesn't provide for?
 

The exile

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Yes. Which is not to say it's acceptable if most ordinary people can't afford to travel by train, of course.
Being controversial, I suspect "ordinary people" can afford to travel by train about as much as they were able to for the majority of the railways' existence - and the time period most of us can remember was more of an exception than the rule. What has changed is people's expectations of how far "normal" travel is (of course aided by the speeding up of journeys and increase in train frequencies) . For most "ordinary people", for example, a day out in London from further much further out than Reading (or similar distance on the appropriate mainline) would have been something really special to be saved up for until pretty recently. In general there has been a rise in people's expectations in terms of what is "normal" in terms of affordability. That's not to say I don't think there should be greater subsidy (particularly of "local" journeys) - there should.
I have to say that very non-scientific observation of local trains on Saturdays does not lead to the conclusion that they are preserve of the rich. Now, long-distance, spontaneous journeys - that's a different matter.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Off peak, on some routes, it's rare to find a non-railcard holder travelling (the London Zones being the exception to this). Is that because single 31-60 year olds find the fares too high, have other means of travel which they favour or have travel needs which the railway doesn't provide for?
Weekdays, off peak, the majority of the 31 - 60 bracket will be working!
 

J663738

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I think weekdays in the UK needs redefining, as very few people I know actual work Monday to Friday anymore.
 

a_c_skinner

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Fawkes Cat

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I think weekdays in the UK needs redefining, as very few people I know actual work Monday to Friday anymore.
Actually work, or work in the office? For example, I am planning on a productive day at my desk in the spare room tomorrow. I'll be working, but not doing Monday's normal commute.
 

The exile

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I think weekdays in the UK needs redefining, as very few people I know actual work Monday to Friday anymore.
Not exactly an objective basis for such a major change! After all, not many people my mother knows well work (for a wage /salary) at all. (She’s 84)
 

sigwinch28

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My biggest gripe with the ad is that it’s got an asterisk with no explainer. Surely could do with a disclaimer about all of the time and minimum fare restrictions that apply to each railcard, but I suppose that would take up the whole ad.

Railcards and ticket prices are like takeaway pizza to me… you’re a sucker if you’re paying full price, and the real price is the price with the “discount”.
 

Joe Paxton

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[...]
Railcards and ticket prices are like takeaway pizza to me… you’re a sucker if you’re paying full price, and the real price is the price with the “discount”.

People who don't qualify for a Railcard and so pay full price for their train ticket are "suckers"?
 

sigwinch28

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People who don't qualify for a Railcard and so pay full price for their train ticket are "suckers"?
Perhaps a bit more harsh than I intended and the sarcasm didn’t come across. I didn’t mean to imply that people are literally suckers, moreso that both systems seem set up to extract lots of money from people who don’t or can’t spend time optimising their spend. All this seems to be designed to give the customer the impression that they get a “good deal” when in fact the “discount” had been anticipated by the seller all along. I think both systems are deliberately manipulative.

“Simply travel off-peak, get an Outer Mordor railcard, and use a Hobbit Off-Peak Rover purchased from a ticket office” is like “Don’t buy the pepperoni pizza and drink. Get a two topping pizza night in deal for one (collection only), then add pepperoni and extra cheese to it”.
 

Mcr Warrior

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But the advert itself is not misleading- merely the way it has been displayed. I can see that the ASA might then call for the “small print” to be displayed in a position where it is less likely to be obscured by slippage - but the fact that a poster slips is no more the responsibility of the advertiser than if someone came along and graffitied out the small print.
I would suggest that the poster depicted in post #1 and similar variants are poorly designed if the small print at the bottom can so easily be hidden by the frame in which it is to be displayed.

Believe the 'hidden' explainer wording says something along the following lines... " * Terms and conditions, time restrictions and eligibility criteria apply. Please visit railcard.co.uk or pick up a leaflet in the station for details".
 
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