Proposed new Channel Tunnel services discussion

[BottleTheWater]

You don't need seperate units, they've taken intra-Schengen passengers on Eurostars before by segregating off those carriages from the rest, and sweeping them before allowing new passengers on at Lille. This is probably the easiest way of serving stations to Germany, given that you're going to need to commandeer the existing paths to do so without sacrificing station calls.


Whenever I have entered Germany in the last few years (whether from Austria, Poland or Belgium) the train has been held for passport checks. Would you regard that as "kleiner Deutscher paranoia"?



Sleepers are the sort of trains where onboard checks are actually practical. Or just make use of the facility at St Pancras that used to service the Disney trains.

The disney trains are processed at Lille on the way back.

 

[Krokodil]

Doing a sleeper shuffle is going to be even worse than a day train shuffle.

Just ask anyone who has had to do it on the Sofia-Istanbul train.

 

[signed]

You don't need seperate units, they've taken intra-Schengen passengers on Eurostars before by segregating off those carriages from the rest, and sweeping them before allowing new passengers on at Lille. This is probably the easiest way of serving stations to Germany, given that you're going to need to commandeer the existing paths to do so without sacrificing station calls.

100% unrealistic nowadays, for operator convenience and profits, you simply can't not sell 1st class only or 2nd class only when the operator makes its money from 1st class.

And having both a 1st class and 2nd class carriage blocked is laughably low capacity when whole sets run full betwen European cities.

 

[Krokodil]

The disney trains are processed at Lille on the way back.

Are they? I'm sure that someone has said on here that Marne-la-Vallée was set up for French exit checks and the British entry was done at St Pancras.

 

[zwk500]

Not really. Such a long sleeper trip would stop at intermediate stops where people could be kicked out, wouldn't be worth it to not.

Of course you have to deal with the security aspect of stopping intermediately, and that is a given that it is unrealistic

you would need sufficient time at the last stop (or an extra final stop) to remove anybody not approved for travel to the UK. And procedures to verify that somebody who's passport was checked in Germany hasn't, for instance, swapped cabins.

 

[Krokodil]

100% unrealistic nowadays, for operator convenience and profits, you simply can't not sell 1st class only or 2nd class only when the operator makes its money from 1st class.

And having both a 1st class and 2nd class carriage blocked is laughably low capacity when whole sets run full betwen European cities.

Eurostars are formed of half sets with duplicate facilities in each end, aren’t they?

 

[signed]

Are they? I'm sure that someone has said on here that Marne-la-Vallée was set up for French exit checks and the British entry was done at St Pancras.

In the most recent iteration of ES Snow/Sun before getting scrapped, people just shuffled into/out of a Eurostar Red unit at Lille, haven't they?

 

[Peterthegreat]

Are they? I'm sure that someone has said on here that Marne-la-Vallée was set up for French exit checks and the British entry was done at St Pancras.

That is correct.

 

[BottleTheWater]

Are they? I'm sure that someone has said on here that Marne-la-Vallée was set up for French exit checks and the British entry was done at St Pancras.

Apparently passport checks are done at Marne-le-Vallee now.

Eurostar™ | Frequently Asked Questions | Disneyland® Paris

Frequently asked questions about eurostar™. If you can't find the answer to your question, please call our Disney Experts freephone on 0800 169 0737.

www.disneyholidays.co.uk

 

[Peterthegreat]

Apparently passport checks are done at Marne-le-Vallee now.

Eurostar™ | Frequently Asked Questions | Disneyland® Paris

Frequently asked questions about eurostar™. If you can't find the answer to your question, please call our Disney Experts freephone on 0800 169 0737.

www.disneyholidays.co.uk

The Disney train hasn't run for some time.

 

[signed]

Eurostars are formed of half sets with duplicate facilities in each end, aren’t they?

Sure, but you would run one half UK and one half continental. You simply wouldn't run it with less, otherwise for the reasons I have stated, and you then have the thing of whether you would have enough Lille passengers to fill that half set. It's unrealistic to run continental with less than a full 200m set anyways.

 

[Brubulus]

If that is not possible (which I of course get), then having a guaranteed connection between the sleeper and the ES at Brussels at a reasonable hour of the morning/evening is likely to be the best option.

Doing a sleeper shuffle is going to be even worse than a day train shuffle.

Having done the Bucharest-Istanbul train, a sleeper shuffle is hell on earth, when at 3am. On the other hand a Lille shuffle would be more manageable since it would be at a reasonable time, given it's only 1h20 from London. 6.30 am and 11pm for instance would be reasonable. My main concern is that the entire train has to wait for a single customer who is taking longer to process for some reason.

 

[Krokodil]

In the most recent iteration of ES Snow/Sun before getting scrapped, people just shuffled into/out of a Eurostar Red unit at Lille, haven't they?

I was talking about the former Disney service, not the Ski Train.

Sure, but you would run one half UK and one half continental. You simply wouldn't run it anyway otherwise for the reasons I have stated, and you then have the thing of whether you would have enough Lille passengers to fill that half set. It's unrealistic to run continental with less than a full 200m set anyways.

Yes, so one half of a 374 would be reserved for Europe-UK passengers, the other half would be for Germany to Brussels passengers. On arrival at Brussels that half would be swept and refilled by Brussels-UK passengers. So the Germany-Brussels capacity remains exactly the same as today, but you'd free up some space in that half set because you've no longer got Germany-UK passengers taking up seats in that set as they do today, they're now in the "extra" 200m.

Are power supply upgrades required to take 400m trains between Belgium and Germany? I' m sure that I've seen it mentioned on here that this is the reason that the ICEs only run as single sets on this route, despite the fact that they are always very busy.

 

[signed]

My main concern is that the entire train has to wait for a single customer who is taking longer to process for some reason.

I wonder how that was handled with ES Snow/Sun when they did a Lille shuffle? Considering that only the Brussels serve Lille.

Yes, so one half of a 374 would be reserved for Europe-UK passengers, the other half would be for Germany to Brussels passengers. On arrival at Brussels that half would be swept and refilled by Brussels-UK passengers. So the Germany-Brussels capacity remains exactly the same as today, but you'd free up some space in that half set because you've no longer got Germany-UK passengers taking up seats in that set as they do today, they're now in the "extra" 200m.

I wonder whether that would be allowed using the 400m sets. I wouldn't expect it to be, only with non gangwayed 2*200m would be much better for security as there wouldn't be any way to skip into the UK part.

 

[SynthD]

Could someone invent a measure of progress on this, including steps like a memorandum of understanding (Switzerland) towards a treaty that has been signed (Germany), someone has ordered trains (France served by the Italian company?), the trains are in service (France, Netherlands, Belgium all by Eurostar only).

Do the pessimists know why these governments are making the deals we see reported if it’s never going to become a service?

 

[signed]

On the other hand a Lille shuffle would be more manageable since it would be at a reasonable time, given it's only 1h20 from London. 6.30 am and 11pm for instance would be reasonable

Any such sleeper connection comming from Germany would end at Brussels, it makes no sense to run sleepers all the way to Lille. And Paris isn't an option either.

 

[Chester1]

Could someone invent a measure of progress on this, including steps like a memorandum of understanding (Switzerland) towards a treaty that has been signed (Germany), someone has ordered trains (France served by the Italian company?), the trains are in service (France, Netherlands, Belgium all by Eurostar only).

Do the pessimists know why these governments are making the deals we see reported if it’s never going to become a service?

Its mostly to tease the segment of Brits that are desperate to rejoin the EU. Labour policy is clear on no freedom of movement, no single market and no customs union membership so they need to come up with stuff that will pull on the emotions of a target demographic at next election. There is some chance, although only slim of Geneva and Frankfurt services. They really could do with taxpayer cash to get started and that does not appear to be on offer.

 

[Farnborough]

Treating the trains as having not left France for the purposes of immigration at any point, in UK law and in any agreement with France.

With respect, if you replace "trains" with "dinghies" and you will see the absurdity of your proposal.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jul 2025 ==

I agree with what you're saying in theory, but both the UK and France have a mutual interest in making international services better

While I have lots of sympathy with your position, this is not just about a UK/France agreement - there are a whole raft of EU rules in the mix, and as has been seen from the Brexit Agreements the EU has largely held its ground and permitted few compromises.

It will be interesting to see what changes once the European Entry/Exit System is live?

But with all the talk about Schengen, the UK was not a member pre-Brexit... and may be a step too far in any future Brejoin discussions...

 

[signed]

It will be interesting to see what changes once the European Entry/Exit System is live?

Nothing will change surely. I wouldn't expect anything major above adding some more nationalities to the PARAFE (French) eGates systems, maybe.

ETIAS on the other hand may make controls faster.

 

[Snow1964]

Its mostly to tease the segment of Brits that are desperate to rejoin the EU. Labour policy is clear on no freedom of movement, no single market and no customs union membership so they need to come up with stuff that will pull on the emotions of a target demographic at next election. There is some chance, although only slim of Geneva and Frankfurt services. They really could do with taxpayer cash to get started and that does not appear to be on offer.

Did the Labour Party used to support freedom of movement and single market. Yes I agree they want to appeal to Britain is brilliant and should go it faction (most of whom don't seem to realise the economic downside).

Even many in Labour Party now realise (even if they don't say so publically) that the new International agreements are much smaller trade wise than the gain from European free trade.

There is a much stronger view in Europe regarding linking biggest regions by train, hence their desire to get to London. They would probably be happy to continue a few a day to Birmingham and Manchester too if we built a HS1-HS2 link. But we don't think big.

Personally I would rather take a train to Barcelona or Genoa or Trieste and do a med cruise, than waster 2-3 days each end sailing from Southampton. There is a market for limited services to other places.

 

[Farnborough]

Just ask anyone who has had to do it on the Sofia-Istanbul train.

Presumably, that is just küçük Türk paranoyak yabancı düşmanlığı (Little Turk paranoid xenophobia, qv)?

 

[Full Standing]

In this thread there are many discussions on how immigration checks can be organised if new direct train services from/to London are started. Some even suggest that Europe-bound trains could be used by intra-Schengen traffic. This does beg the question how customs checks are organised. You can't really do something on arrival as it would be hard to distinguish the non-EU and EU flows. And even if you could, passengers from the UK can just give their bags to someone who boarded within the EU and then claim that the goods are from the EU.

How is this done for the Amsterdam-bound Eurostar services? Can people board these trains at Lille/Brussels?

 

[popeter45]

For a sleeper, you could do the controls in the train itself after departure, I am quite sure for a low-ish density sleeper, API (Advanced Passenger information), you could manage that without that much issues and that many loopholes in a few hours worth. Especially as such a train would need to depart quite early in the evening.

i have thought about such a system in the past using a border car and shengen cars that are where people enter, pass through the boarder car then enter the actual sleeper. border/shengen cars removed at lille before progressing to the tunnel. anybody who is rejected stays on the shengen cars and can get off at the next station or stay on till Lille depending on what they need to do next

 

[signed]

How is this done for the Amsterdam-bound Eurostar services? Can people board these trains at Lille/Brussels?

Yes Doesn't appear so

In this thread there are many discussions on how immigration checks can be organised if new direct train services from/to London are started. Some even suggest that Europe-bound trains could be used by intra-Schengen traffic. This does beg the question how customs checks are organised. You can't really do something on arrival as it would be hard to distinguish the non-EU and EU flows. And even if you could, passengers from the UK can just give their bags to someone who boarded within the EU and then claim that the goods are from the EU.

EU law is that customs control happen in the country of final destination, as opposed to persons where the control is at the first port of entry into the Schengen area.

The EU (and British) custom checks culture anyway is to do mostly spot/intelligence check and self-declaration lines (Blue, Green, Red). And the ES website reinforces that

Customs Information | Eurostar

Everything you need to know about custom regulations when travelling on the Eurostar.

www.eurostar.com

When you arrive at Paris Gare du Nord, you may see French customs officers on the platform carrying out routine checks.

If you’re travelling to Lille, there will be a designated area where you can declare your goods at the station. Please listen carefully to onboard announcements and look out for station signs when you arrive at your destination for more information.

When you arrive, you may see Belgian customs officers on the platform carrying out routine checks. If you’re taking a connection, please allow at least 30 minutes to make your onward train.

If you're travelling to Amsterdam or Rotterdam, there may be customs officials on board carrying out checks during the journey.

Non-EU and EU flows doesn't seem to be a problem for the governments in airports where the customs check is merged.

I haven't been in the London-Paris direction for ages, anyone know what the procedure for French customs for Paris-bound trains? Since there is absolutely nothing physical at GdN on arrival.

 

[NCT]

Well that would just result in very large numbers of people claiming asylum, which would be politically suicidal.
There are tens of millions of people in the world with a plausible claim for asylum, possibly hundreds of millions.

Returning large numbers of people is essentially impossible and always has been - even during EU membership the return rate was negligible.
(EDIT: And if you attempt to put a cap on numbers, you won't actually eliminate the irregular crossing issue)

Without border controls, there would be a strong incentive for EU countries to "solve" their asylum issue by buying the relevant people bus/train tickets to London. Just as homeless people are regularly bussed around the US to "get rid" of them. The UK is highly attractive on account of its English speaking population, so very large numbers of asylum seekers would take the offer without complaint.

Britain has some pull factors but let's not get that carried away with British exceptionalism.

Whenever I have entered Germany in the last few years (whether from Austria, Poland or Belgium) the train has been held for passport checks. Would you regard that as "kleiner Deutscher paranoia"?

Absolutely. It's political cowardice in the face of the AfD.

As much as I would love the UK to join Schengen and for open borders, even in that eventuality, it will still be a target that will need secure stations and some form of screening. The AVE network in Spain has security too for deterrence, so it isn't unprecedented even within Schengen.

Another example of pointless security theatre. The China-like Spanish high-speed-rail boarding procedure is getting to a point of affecting the economic performance of economic assets. On corridors where the market and the railway infrastructure can support Dutch levels of frequency, freedom to travel and the associate economic multiplier effects, the outdated boarding procedures are unnecessarily constraining the ability of the railway to be a railway.

The ETA bombings were on Madrid Cercanias and yet they put security on high-speed services. It's not rational, it's not logical.

 

[signed]

The AVE network in Spain has security too for deterrence, so it isn't unprecedented even within Schengen.

Those are reportedy going away fyi

 

[NCT]

How is this done for the Amsterdam-bound Eurostar services? Can people board these trains at Lille/Brussels?

Yes

Is this in theory or in practice?

When I search on the Eurostar website (or DB Navigator) for Brussels - Amsterdam, the ex-London services don't come up.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jul 2025 ==

Those are reportedy going away fyi

Do you have a source for that please? Or just from 'informed sources'?

 

[signed]

Is this in theory or in practice?

When I search on the Eurostar website (or DB Navigator) for Brussels - Amsterdam, the ex-London services don't come up.

That is correct, read the train numbers way too fast, my bad

Do you have a source for that please? Or just from 'informed sources'?

El presidente de Renfe abre la puerta a eliminar los controles de seguridad de los trenes de alta velocidad

Álvaro Fernández Heredia recuerda que la vigilancia en el acceso a los vagones no es obligatoria, es costosa y casi única en Europa

www.lavozdegalicia.es

El recientemente elegido presidente de Renfe, Álvaro Fernández Heredia, se muestra partidario a abrir el debate sobre eliminar los controles de seguridad de equipajes para acceder a los trenes de alta velocidad, como los que hay para acceder en el Eje Atlántico entre A Coruña y Vigo o en las conexiones entre Galicia y Madrid. Se trata de una decisión que depende en última instancia del ADIF y del Ministerio del Interior, según recuerda en su cuenta personal en X —antiguo Twitter—.


Fernández Heredia pide reflexionar sobre la idoneidad de mantener estas inspecciones y para ello se hace eco de un reciente artículo del ingeniero y profesor de Ferrocarriles Alberto García Álvarez, que considera la medida inútil, carísima y molesta para los usuarios de la alta velocidad.


Entre los argumentos que esgrime el experto, está en primer lugar la falta de normativa al respecto. «No hay ninguna norma, ni nacional ni supranacional (como sí la hay en la aviación) que obligue a realizar este control», subraya, y recalca además que incluso está contraindicada por algunos organismos globales, como la Unión Internacional de Ferrocarriles. Apunta también que España es «el único país occidental donde existen», con la única salvedad del Eurotúnel entre París y Londres, donde está justificada al ser una infraestructura submarina y fronteriza de la Unión Europea.

The newly elected president of Renfe, Álvaro Fernández Heredia, is in favour of opening the debate on eliminating baggage security controls to access high-speed trains, such as those available to access in the Atlantic Axis between A Coruña and Vigo or in connections between Galicia and Madrid. This is a decision that ultimately depends on ADIF and the Ministry of the Interior, as he recalls on his personal account in X - former Twitter.

Fernández Heredia asks to reflect on the suitability of maintaining these inspections and to this echoes a recent article by the engineer and professor of Railways Alberto García Álvarez, who considers the useless measure, very expensive and annoying for high-speed users.

Among the arguments put forward by the expert, there is first the lack of regulations on this matter. There is no national or supranational rule (as there is in aviation) that forces this control to be carried out, he stresses, and stresses that it is even contraindicated by some global bodies, such as the International Railway Union. He also points out that Spain is the only Western country where they exist, with the only exception of the Eurotunnel between Paris and London, where it is justified as an underwater and border infrastructure of the European Union.

It's not really going away but a good sign, I haven't followed the rest of the story though and whether something tangible came out of it

 

[BottleTheWater]

Any such sleeper connection comming from Germany would end at Brussels, it makes no sense to run sleepers all the way to Lille. And Paris isn't an option either.

Surely a sleeper from Paris is a much better sell? You could have a breakfast or dinner in Paris as well. The area around the Brussels stations are bad for a stopover.

 

[Chester1]

Did the Labour Party used to support freedom of movement and single market. Yes I agree they want to appeal to Britain is brilliant and should go it faction (most of whom don't seem to realise the economic downside).

Even many in Labour Party now realise (even if they don't say so publically) that the new International agreements are much smaller trade wise than the gain from European free trade.

There is a much stronger view in Europe regarding linking biggest regions by train, hence their desire to get to London. They would probably be happy to continue a few a day to Birmingham and Manchester too if we built a HS1-HS2 link. But we don't think big.

Personally I would rather take a train to Barcelona or Genoa or Trieste and do a med cruise, than waster 2-3 days each end sailing from Southampton. There is a market for limited services to other places.

There are certainly Europhiles in the Labour Party but their manifesto commitment last year was very clear about parameters of any potential deals with the EU, no FOM, no single market or customs union membership. Changing this before next election would be seen as a huge betrayal. This limits the scale of the deal that can be done and leaves the government scrambling around to create pro European headlines in the media. I am keen to see Brussels Eurostar services extending into Germany or DB launch their own cross channel services but there is a low prospect unless either government provides some cash. Polling last year indicated some delusional thinking by a chunk of Labour voters on what its European policy is. There was a sizable proportion that thought Labour supported rejoining the EU, I don't know how that is possible when their European policy is so explicit. Labour needs to keep doing stuff that wink to this section of their voters while not breaking their manifesto. Trains from London to Germany is excellent for that and they may even be prepared to share a subsidy with the German government. The European policy could change at the next election but it won't change before then.

EU law is that customs control happen in the country of final destination, as opposed to persons where the control is at the first port of entry into the Schengen area.

The EU (and British) custom checks culture anyway is to do mostly spot/intelligence check and self-declaration lines (Blue, Green, Red).

Non-EU and EU flows doesn't seem to be a problem for the governments in airports where the customs check is merged.

I haven't been in STP for ages, anyone know what the procedure for French customs for Paris-bound trains? Since there is absolutely nothing at GdN on arrival.

I think its self declare, I don’t remember my bags being checked. Trains are a very low risk for customs.

If 2 x 200m sets are allowed then one option could be splitting at Cologne with half going to Dortmund and half to Frankfurt. It would still be difficult to fill 450-500 seats on each half at a profitable price. London - Germany could need to be done as a management contract with UK and German taxpayers paying a subsidy for at least a few years.