Penalty Fare - WMR

[greenmunchkin]

Hiya,
I wonder if any of you knowledgable people can help or offer advice

I occasionally travel to work via train, and its often a last minute decision if im getting a lift, or train.
The other day it was very last minute, and there is naff all signal at the train station, so I went to the automated machine (unmanned station) and the machine was frozen and did nothing when I tried to use it.

We have had issues recently with trains leaving early from the stations, even when the conductor can see people rushing to the train, so I was worried about getting to the platform so I didnt miss the train if this happened.

Consequently I boarded the train without a ticket, because my other choice was miss the train, walk to the main road to find signal, and be an hour late for work because of their crappy machine.

I've been in this position before, and bought a ticket on board, and reguarly seen people buy tickets on the train on the train too with no issues or warnings of you should really have one first etc. so I didn't think it would be a problem.

Just my luck it wasnt the conductor, but the revenue police.

I have a few tickets bought on the trainline app, but most have been on the machines because of the signal issues

I'll pay the penalty if I have to, I just dont think it's really fair becuase there was no facility to buy a ticket, but I know the machines dont self-report issues, it was unresponsive rather than dead, and I didn't think I'd need to take any video or images, because I could buy on the train.

What are my chances at appeal, in your experience?

 

[gray1404]

Please provide your journey details and upload a full copy of the penalty fare notice.

What did the staff say when you told them the ticket machine wasn't working.

 

[furlong]

Simply assert the facts.
Put them on notice to retain any CCTV immediately for the appeals body and request a copy yourself if you think there was a camera in the right place to prove you went to the machine and show how long you stood there and at what time. They do have some logs showing what the machine was doing.
Post the complete PF notice (redacting names, addresses, reference nos. etc.) here so people can check if there are any other mistakes.

But if you're making up the story as a possible excuse, don't bother wasting everyone's time.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hiya,
I wonder if any of you knowledgable people can help or offer advice

I occasionally travel to work via train, and its often a last minute decision if im getting a lift, or train.
The other day it was very last minute, and there is naff all signal at the train station, so I went to the automated machine (unmanned station) and the machine was frozen and did nothing when I tried to use it.

We have had issues recently with trains leaving early from the stations, even when the conductor can see people rushing to the train, so I was worried about getting to the platform so I didnt miss the train if this happened.

Consequently I boarded the train without a ticket, because my other choice was miss the train, walk to the main road to find signal, and be an hour late for work because of their crappy machine.

I've been in this position before, and bought a ticket on board, and reguarly seen people buy tickets on the train on the train too with no issues or warnings of you should really have one first etc. so I didn't think it would be a problem.

Just my luck it wasnt the conductor, but the revenue police.

I have a few tickets bought on the trainline app, but most have been on the machines because of the signal issues

I'll pay the penalty if I have to, I just dont think it's really fair becuase there was no facility to buy a ticket, but I know the machines dont self-report issues, it was unresponsive rather than dead, and I didn't think I'd need to take any video or images, because I could buy on the train.

What are my chances at appeal, in your experience?

FWIW never assume you can buy on the train in future

 

[greenmunchkin]

Please provide your journey details and upload a full copy of the penalty fare notice.

What did the staff say when you told them the ticket machine wasn't working.

Hopefully I've managed to attach it, I've had to break it into two parts

When I told him, he told me to appeal and say that the machine wasnt working

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jul 2025 ==

But if you're making up the story as a possible excuse, don't bother wasting everyone's time.

I'm not making it up, if I was trying to dodge the fare I'd just pay it and have done with it. It's hardly worth the gamble of £100 for the sake of saving £7, I just feel its harsh when I tried and their technology failed

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jul 2025 ==

FWIW never assume you can buy on the train in future

I've learnt that one now unfortuantly

 

[185]

To clarify, Whitlock's End is a cash and card ticket machine. Assuming you can't prove it was broken, an appeal would be unlikely to work, but you could try.

Approximately 1 train in 20 you'll get the inspectors checking not the guard, and it's a risk you run - clarified by the yellow poster up the top of the steps on entering the Birmingham platform. £58.80 for the next 10 days, only goes up to £100+8.80 after that.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

To clarify, Whitlock's End is a cash and card ticket machine. Assuming you can't prove it was broken, an appeal would be unlikely to work, but you could try.

Approximately 1 train in 20 you'll get the inspectors checking not the guard, and it's a risk you run - clarified by the yellow poster up the top of the steps on entering the Birmingham platform. £58.80 for the next 10 days, only goes up to £100+8.80 after that.

Its also very common for people heading towards Stratford to not bother having a ticket, unlike the other direction.

Having lived, and used, that station daily for several years I can count on my hand the number of occasions the machine has been OOU, not to say it wasn't on this occasion.

@greenmunchkin did you get the conductor's attention on the platform prior to boarding to ask to purchase a ticket, or did you just board the train?

 

[gray1404]

Where was the train on its journey when you were asked to show a ticket by the ticket inspector? How long into the journey where you?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Where was the train on its journey when you were asked to show a ticket by the ticket inspector? How long into the journey where you?

If issued at or around 0810 on 17JUL2025, the train, to Stratford upon Avon, would quite possibly have been approaching, or at Wood End station. There's still several stations thereafter to Stratford upon Avon Parkway (is that where the OP was headed?)

Realtime Trains | 0700 Stourbridge Junction to Stratford-upon-Avon | 17/07/2025

Real-time train running information for 0700 departure from Stourbridge Junction to Stratford-upon-Avon on 17/07/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[furlong]

Assuming you can't prove it was broken,

It's the other way around - if this is raised in an appeal, the train company may, should it wish to and be able to, "provide evidence that reasonably demonstrates" it was not broken. Ref 16(4). In previous cases we've seen this "evidence" take the form of logs of successful transactions timed immediately before or after the time in question. Obviously it's important to be as specific as possible in the appeal about the nature of the fault so it's clear they'd also need to supply logs showing any machine faults (including communication errors and operating system errors) or application or machine restarts and any other similar recent reports or complaints regarding this particular machine from passengers or staff.

 

[gray1404]

So the inspector did not issue the notice to the next station the service was due to call at.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

So the inspector did not issue the notice to the next station the service was due to call at.

I don't think much hangs on this. If they were asked around Wood End, I think only Henley-in-Arden and Stratford have ticket purchasing facilities and the inspector would have asked where they are going to and it would be implied that's where the PF should be made to.