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1871 Census

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Andy873

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I decided a few days ago to treat myself to a basic subscription for a site that would give me access to the 1871 census, and it answers many questions about the numbers of people involved in building the branch line I'm researching.

Here are my findings:

As mentioned before, it shows 47 labourers, navvies and excavators listed as directly working on constructing the line.
The ratios are roughly 3 to 1 labourers to navvies, and 2 to 1 navvies to excavators.

Accommodation for the above - I was both right and wrong (if I can use that term). Nine of the workers were indeed living in those large wooden huts. The location of these huts took me by surprise, they are north east of Great Harwood in a field (of course). These are arranged with place names such as Back Cricket St, Butts, Mary Hindle Houses, and Clinkum, all of these huts have house numbers. These huts start back in 1851 for locals, continue in 1881, but by 1891 they are all gone. You can still see traces of a lane through the field today.

For the rest of the workers, they are all living in the town, in one house for example, there are 8 labourers, one of which is the head of the household, his wife, two sons, a daughter and the other 7 railway labourers.

Many of these workers bring with them their wives and children, and I count in total 103 people including the railway workers, that's a 2.57% increase on the local population. Many of the children are attending school of a fashion.

No matter where they were living, house or hut, all but 2 are classed as Boarding, which by my understanding would include breakfast and an evening meal and possibly your cloths washed and dried. All of which would have to come out of your wages of course. It also provides extra income for the head of the household and their family.

The majority of these workers are English, a handful from North and South Wales, and the rest from Ireland, especially Mayo, Ireland, apart from one who is from Scotland.

Accommodation grouping of workers - The labourers aren't mixed with the navvies, and navvies aren't mixed with the excavators. It doesn't appear to matter about the nationality of the workers however, they are all mixed with the exception of one hut where they are all from Mayo, Ireland plus one from Galway.

Thomas Stone, contractor had a locomotive on site, the driver and fireman both come from North Wales, the fireman lives in the same house as the driver, driver's wife and children, no other workers live with them.

Mr. Stone himself is still listed at Newton Park, Newton-Le-Willows where he lives, but must have made many trips to the works over the years. His two sons however, are listed as living in a large house with a domestic servant. The eldest son is the resident Civil Engineer for the works, and the other, Clerk of the works.

The Padiham to Rose Grove section:

The 1871 census comes a little too early for this section, however there are 11 Railway labourers listed as working on this section, no mention of navvies or excavators. Like Harwood, the majority of them live in Padiham and are boarding, and once more, the rest are living in huts out of town in a field with place names such as Dear Bridge, Owsle Row, and Lim Boa (possibly meaning Limbo).

John Wilkes Bower - L&Y Resident Engineer is living at Simontone (sometimes spelt Symonstone back in 1871), he is living in a house called Coal Staithe which is in Lord Starkie's large private estate (called Huntroyde Demesne). John lives alone.

Thomas Higham - L&Y Clerk of works is living next to Mr. Bower with his wife who works as a Domestic House Keeper, 2 sons, one at school, one a labourer at an iron works, 2 daughters, one a domestic servant, one at school.

I'm very surprised as to where Mr. Bower and Mr. Higham are living, the line in general was 9 miles long and they are around 7 miles along it near Padiham. These two gentlemen would have to have constantly travelled to both sections of the works.

Lord Starkie - He and his influential friends (two of them Earls), hatched a scheme six years before to build this line and effectively forced the L&Y into building it for them. Perhaps housing Bower and Higham on his estate would have given him a blow by blow account of the progress of the new line?

Questions please:

Should I not be seeing more L&Y clerks etc on site, involved with paperwork?

For 1871, I was surprised to see only one person living in Harwood who was working with horses, he's listed as a Horse Keeper, shouldn't I be seeing stable boys for example?

There are two workers who are listed as Railway Engine Tenter's, I've checked the spelling as written down and it does state Tenters, what are they? Should I count these or discount them?

Looking after the locomotive - Who would clean, wash out, repair this locomotive? would you pay someone who is local and looks after the mill steam locomotive for example?

I've gone through all the trades I can think of such as Stone Masons, Carpenters, Joiners, Carters and Labourers, what other trades would be associated with the construction of a new railway, bare in mind, in 1871 we are in no position to be building stations yet. Can you think of any more trades to search for?
 
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Mcr Warrior

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Questions please:

There are two workers who are listed as Railway Engine Tenter's, I've checked the spelling as written down and it does state Tenters, what are they? Should I count these or discount them?
A "railway engine tenter" was a North of England term for someone who looked after the railway engine. "Tenter", in context, broadly having a similar meaning to 'tend', and harking back to the days when similar such persons might be looking after a stationary 'tenter' engine in a mill (which was used to gently and evenly stretch the cloth after processing).
 

Gloster

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As far as L&Y clerks are concerned, I would doubt that many are needed, possibly none at all, as the contractor was given the job by the L&Y when they gave him the contract and he was left to do it with only ‘light touch’ supervision from the railway. Any correspondance would probably pass between the contractor and either the L&Y’s Resident Engineer or Clerk of Works or the their head office. N.b. A Clerk of Works is not a clerk, more of a managerial or supervisory post.

I dounbt if they cared that well for their horses, so one horse-keeper would look after many. They aren’t racehorses needing constant exercising and care.

The locomotive was probably looked after by its driver, including all maintenance done on site. Why have somebody else wash it out when the driver is available but can’t drive it? Demarcation did not exist.
 

Andy873

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A "railway engine tenter" was a North of England term for someone who looked after the railway engine. "Tenter", in context, broadly having a similar meaning to 'tend', and harking back to the days when similar such persons might be looking after a stationary 'tenter' engine in a mill (which was used to gently and evenly stretch the cloth after processing).
Thanks for that, I had never heard of this term before.

I dounbt if they cared that well for their horses, so one horse-keeper would look after many. They aren’t racehorses needing constant exercising and care.
Again, Thanks. It does make me wonder if this person was attending to the horses of Thomas Stone the railway contractor. I can't find anyone else at all connected to horses which I find strange for Victorian England, On the other hand, from Spring through to Autumn you would just turf the horses out into a nearby field, pick their feet out in the morning (remove stone, mud etc), ready for work.

The locomotive was probably looked after by its driver, including all maintenance done on site. Why have somebody else wash it out when the driver is available but can’t drive it? Demarcation did not exist.
Very good point here.

The reason I posted my findings from the census, although specific to the loop line I'm researching, it occurred to me they might help someone else's research too.

The wooden huts in both towns makes me wonder if most towns (new railway or not being built) had them? looks that way, after all, if a town is growing with new houses, factories, mills etc, you need to house the workers who are building all of them.

The living conditions, if not ideal, seem on the whole to be much better than those poor labourers stuck in the middle of no where.

N.b. A Clerk of Works is not a clerk, more of a managerial or supervisory post.
Yes, this one I did know for once! Mr. Higham (L&Y Clerk of Works) would have gone round every bridge, cutting, embankment as and when finished (or even during the work) inspecting them. Get it wrong, then for example you would have to pull that bridge down and re-build it at your own cost (at the contractor's cost), something you don't want to happen.
 

Henffordd

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A "railway engine tenter" was a North of England term for someone who looked after the railway engine. "Tenter", in context, broadly having a similar meaning to 'tend', and harking back to the days when similar such persons might be looking after a stationary 'tenter' engine in a mill (which was used to gently and evenly stretch the cloth after processing).
Rabbit hole alert! "Tentering" was the process of stretching fabrics, and predates machinery. Pieces of cloth would be pegged out in a field, using small, sharp hooks - tenterhooks - to minimise damage to the fabric: from which "on tenterhooks". When the industry mechanised and handled rolls, rather than pieces of cloth, the machines used to process the rolls were called "tenters", or more often "stenters". Don't know why the "s" appeared.

Time for a terrier....
 

Big Jumby 74

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As a general point of reference for old trades, there are a number of trade related publications out there (check out Society of Genealogists site - sog.org.uk) amongst others. One book I have is 'The Family Historian's Enquire Within' by Janet Frew (latest I have is 6th edition/2014) but a wealth of reference material and thus leads to other sources various.
A word to the wise about the 1861 census, should you ever find need to delve in to that. There are some noticeable gaps in that year in areas various, due in part I believe to German bombing which destroyed a quantity of archives located in Chancery Lane at the time.
 

Andy873

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A word to the wise about the 1861 census, should you ever find need to delve in to that. There are some noticeable gaps in that year in areas various, due in part I believe to German bombing which destroyed a quantity of archives located in Chancery Lane at the time.
Didn't know some of the census details got destroyed. Fortunately for me, I didn't need much from the 1861 one, and what I wanted was there.

Question - Along with the census details, for each person there is a map and marker indicating where the census was taken, now every map pointer indicates correctly the household, but there is an exception! The Starkie's who own Huntroyde Hall at Simonstone. The hall's staff, and close by farms all show their details were taken at a farm called Pimp House farm close to the hall.

Would Lord Starkie order everyone on his land to meet at a particular place and time for the census? He and Lady Starkie seem to be out of the country in 1871, so I checked the 1861 census, and I find the same thing, all details taken at the same farm? Even Lord and Lady Starkie turn up at the farm in the 1861 census?

If you can correctly point to a small house in a town, surely you can't miss a very large stately home?
 
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@Andy873 , is it perhaps just a matter of how the map pointers have been implemented? I don't know which source of Census you're using, but the description of one system with added mapping says

"The Greater London Area, Buckinghamshire and Berkshire along with most towns and cities can be viewed down to the property level, while other parts of the country will identify down to the parish, road or street."

So possibly just an inconsistency in the way the pointers have been set up between different parts of the area you're looking at ?

Quote from https://www.thegenealogist.com/pres...ensus-households-now-plotted-on-map-explorer/
 

Gloster

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I wonder if it is simply that Pimp House was part of the Huntroyde property, possibly the home farm. When the markers are inserted there is only one per property and in this case the marker has been put on the farm. It could have been the opposite way round, with everybody including the farmer, family and live-in labourers being marked at the Hall and the farm empty. In town the individual properties are much smaller, but still separate. This is only a suggestion.

EDIT: Was he really Lord Starkie: there are entries on Wikipedia for two Le Gendre Starkie (1799-1865) and (1828-1899), but no title appears. They would have been different people in 1861 and 1871 as the first died in 1865.
 
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Andy873

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Yes, this is the site I'm using. It's very impressive, generally accurate with names and place names, although I've already reported three for amendment.

Was he really Lord Starkie: there are entries on Wikipedia for two Le Gendre Starkie (1799-1865) and (1828-1899), but no title appears. They would have been different people in 1861 and 1871 as the first died in 1865.
Good question, well he was Lord of the Manor here, but perhaps that's just the title of the person who owns most of the land in an area. I've read about other Lords of the Manor who are not referred to a Lord X.

As for the Le Gendre part of the name, in French it means the son-in-law. In 1760, the then Starkie died without an heir (no children), and the Hall and lands passed onto his cousin's son and that's when the Le Gendre part of the name starts.

I wonder if it is simply that Pimp House was part of the Huntroyde property, possibly the home farm. When the markers are inserted there is only one per property and in this case the marker has been put on the farm. It could have been the opposite way round, with everybody including the farmer, family and live-in labourers being marked at the Hall and the farm empty. In town the individual properties are much smaller, but still separate. This is only a suggestion.
Pump House Farm was indeed on Starkie's property, it could be he ordered everyone to assemble there for the person taking the census details. A point to note, this area of Lancashire was at the time populated with mainly with scattered farms owned by Starkie.

Bringing all the farmers (and family) to one location would certainly get the census done much faster, something that the census taker would have been thankful for, but perhaps as a farmer, who might have been up say since 3am and milking the cows you might think differently!

By sheer chance and coincidence, the last people in this area to be recorded on the census are John W Bower and Thomas Higham of the L&Y, Resident engineer and clerk of works respectively overseeing the loop line's construction.

In my opinion, the three month's subscription for £14.99 was well worth it, one week's worth of searching the census has revealed so much, from how many were doing the digging and tipping, to where they were living at the time etc. So much so, that I can now start to get an impression of the people who actually built the branch line.

Silly question time - What accent would someone have from Newton-Le-Willows? It's half way between Liverpool and Manchester, one of those accents? or a straight forward Lancashire accent?
 

Gloster

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Good question, well he was Lord of the Manor here, but perhaps that's just the title of the person who owns most of the land in an area. I've read about other Lords of the Manor who are not referred to a Lord X.

A lord of the manor is not a Lord in the sense of being a part of the peerage, so that they can’t call themselves Lord So-and-so, although occasionally they do. They may have certain rights based on the feudal system, but these have been dropping away over the years.


Pump House Farm was indeed on Starkie's property, it could be he ordered everyone to assemble there for the person taking the census details. A point to note, this area of Lancashire was at the time populated with mainly with scattered farms owned by Starkie.

I doubt if the lord of the manor would order all his staff and tenants to assemble at the farm. I find it even less likely that he would have deigned to do so: the census taker should come to him, or more likely to consult with the butler or housekeeper as to who is in the house at the time and not bother m‘lord. I still think that it is far more likely that at some stage administrative convenience has meant that all persons living within the boundaries of one property, in this case Huntroyde Hall, its grounds and home farm, have been marked as at one building.
 

Andy873

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I doubt if the lord of the manor would order all his staff and tenants to assemble at the farm. I find it even less likely that he would have deigned to do so: the census taker should come to him, or more likely to consult with the butler or housekeeper as to who is in the house at the time and not bother m‘lord. I still think that it is far more likely that at some stage administrative convenience has meant that all persons living within the boundaries of one property, in this case Huntroyde Hall, its grounds and home farm, have been marked as at one building.
Well, that might be the case, guess I'll never know for sure. It would certainly expedite matters.
 

stuving

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I had a quick look at The Genealogist, because it's the only site I could think of offering a link from early censuses to mapping. For those Starkies it said the location was "parish" rather than more precise - and placed it at Pump House on the map (might or might not be a farm). So it looks as if that location is the default for the whole parish, being the geometric centre.

Finding a more precise location will depend on matching a property or local place name extracted from the transcript with one in the index (gazetteer) of names for that map. That too will have been created by transcribing names off the map, or possibly by some form of OCR (labelled as AI or not). These are all error-prone processes, and more so in the past but improving all the time (largely by applying AI).

The census was conducted by the enumerator calling at each property and leaving a form (schedule) with the householder to be filled in. "Household" was strictly defined then as now, and in a very similar way. If they were absent then, and would be later on census day, someone else would do it instead - the nominal householder would be in the census elsewhere. If the householder was illiterate the enumerator would question them and take the data down. The schedules were collected and copied by the enumerator into a book of blank printed tables and record sheets. It's possible queries could have been raised with the householder during collection, but I doubt that was always done.

The schedules have been destroyed and we now have images of the enumerator's books in which, in addition to the fair copy of the source data, there are marks and notes made by the clerks during later processing. But most errors - or at least recording things that don't mean what we think they do - were due to the householder, rather fewer to the enumerator. In a big household the servants might be asked for their details, but sometimes they were treated as too unimportant to take much care over. And a lot had lied about their age anyway. But then, it's surprising how many fathers had only a vague notion of the ages - or even the names - of their children!

The 1861 image sets also contain some administrative sheets at the start of each enumerator's returns. They record the area covered ("the whole of the township of Symonstone ...") for this enumeration district (no. 13 in the registrar's sub-district of Padiham, part of the superintendent registrar's district of Burnley Union), the sub-totals and totals (325 people in 61 schedules plus one for an empty house), and a sign-off sheet for the enumerator (Jackson Bradshaw), the local registrar (Michael Servetus Holland) and his superintendent (John Tattersall). In 1861 one sheet has a section to enter "number of persons returned in this book as having slept in the enumeration district on the night of April 7th, but whose usual home is elsewhere." This also asks for breakdown of numbers by "cause of the presence of strangers - such as market or fair, the construction of railway works, buildings, etc". I don't think that is included for 1871.

Jackson Bradshaw (28) was a schoolmaster living in Symonstone; Michael S Holland (31) was a bookseller and printer in Padiham as well as local registrar (which was not a full-time job). John Tattersall (57) was a solicitor and magistrate's clerk as well as superintendent registrar living in Burnley with his sister and her family (he died in 1867); one of them his nephew who was local registrar and druggist.
 

Andy873

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@stuving, sorry I meant to say thank you for the detailed reply on the one above.

I'm confused about what the 1881 census return for Robert Stone of Newton-Le-Willows is telling me, it states:

He is a railway contractor, member of prison of 72 Railway Station and employs 350 men.

I think it says prison? is it as simple as he's in prison when the census was taken? and it gives his address as High Street, so what's the Railway Station part telling me? The entry simply doesn't make sense to me, help anyone?
 

Ken H

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I wonder if it is simply that Pimp House was part of the Huntroyde property, possibly the home farm. When the markers are inserted there is only one per property and in this case the marker has been put on the farm. It could have been the opposite way round, with everybody including the farmer, family and live-in labourers being marked at the Hall and the farm empty. In town the individual properties are much smaller, but still separate. This is only a suggestion.

EDIT: Was he really Lord Starkie: there are entries on Wikipedia for two Le Gendre Starkie (1799-1865) and (1828-1899), but no title appears. They would have been different people in 1861 and 1871 as the first died in 1865.
Hmmm. Did pimp have another meaning to what it means now? Or is it a case of a bored enumerator guessing at the word spoken in a local accent? Pimp is Welsh for 5, however.
 

swt_passenger

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@stuving, sorry I meant to say thank you for the detailed reply on the one above.

I'm confused about what the 1881 census return for Robert Stone of Newton-Le-Willows is telling me, it states:

He is a railway contractor, member of prison of 72 Railway Station and employs 350 men.

I think it says prison? is it as simple as he's in prison when the census was taken? and it gives his address as High Street, so what's the Railway Station part telling me? The entry simply doesn't make sense to me, help anyone?
On Ancestry they’ve transcribed it slightly differently as:
Railway Contractor Employing 350 Men (Member Of Firm 72 Stone)

But you need to come to your own interpretation, I think it’s:
Railway Contractor (Member of Firm of T&R Stone employs 350 Men) - it’s good they’ve picked up the 350 men, as it overspills into the next line, they’d often miss that.

IMG_1695.jpeg


Now I’m not completely sure about the first initial before Stone, it could also be I or J, but I couldn’t see another similar on the same page to compare. But it’s worth searching pages filled in by the same enumerator to work out how he wrote capitals. Further up the page theres a “Frederick” whose first letter could be taken as a P if you were in a hurry…

PS - could this possible T Stone be the Thomas Stone you mentioned when asking about threshing machines last month?

PPS - I completely missed the reference to Thomas Stone in the first post… :oops:
 
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stuving

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I'm pretty sure that is "Member of firm J & R Stone." I think we had that business come up earlier, though I can't recall where.
 

Big Jumby 74

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I'm pretty sure that is "Member of firm J & R Stone." I think we had that business come up earlier, though I can't recall where.
You've just beaten me to it. Yes, Member of firm J & R Stone is what I think it says.
 

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Rabbit hole alert! "Tentering" was the process of stretching fabrics, and predates machinery. Pieces of cloth would be pegged out in a field, using small, sharp hooks - tenterhooks - to minimise damage to the fabric: from which "on tenterhooks". When the industry mechanised and handled rolls, rather than pieces of cloth, the machines used to process the rolls were called "tenters", or more often "stenters". Don't know why the "s" appeared.

Time for a terrier....
Ah. Thats why there is a Tenter Street in Atherstone near where a hat factory was.
 

swt_passenger

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I'm pretty sure that is "Member of firm J & R Stone." I think we had that business come up earlier, though I can't recall where.
Threshing machines last month, which is partly why I went with T. I found a similar looking T for Thomas on the previous census page, but his J had a full descending loop…
 

Big Jumby 74

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Threshing machines last month, which is partly why I went with T. I found a similar looking T for Thomas on the previous census page, but his J had a full descending loop…
Just got distracted by a phone call, but was going to add in relation to entries of personal interest on the census returns, where there is some doubt about occupation or some such due to hand writing, it can be helpful to scroll through several pages either side of the entry of interest (those seemingly in the same 'hand') to get a feel for the enumerators hand writing, and how they formed their letters, so if a 'J', 'T', 'I' (etc) can be identified correctly in relation to one entry, then that might help with identifying one's own entry of interest, if that makes sense?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Ah. Thats why there is a Tenter Street in Atherstone near where a hat factory was.
I had family in 'Tenter Banks' just a stones throw from Stafford station, in the 1860's. They were Tailors by trade.
 

swt_passenger

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Just got distracted by a phone call, but was going to add in relation to entries of personal interest on the census returns, where there is some doubt about occupation or some such due to hand writing, it can be helpful to scroll through several pages either side of the entry of interest (those seemingly in the same 'hand') to get a feel for the enumerators hand writing, and how they formed their letters, so if a 'J', 'T', 'I' (etc) can be identified correctly in relation to one entry, then that might help with identifying one's own entry of interest, if that makes sense?
I did make that very same point in my earlier reply (#16), I think it’s also the case that the people doing the transcription for the likes of Ancestry sometimes came up with words and names that aren’t in the dictionary at all, I guess they paid peanuts to people who were not necessarily familiar with typical handwriting variations but just transferred everything as they first observed it. (Not relevant in this case, but I’ve found many cases where two or even three families have been combined despite the added markings being very clear they’re separate properties.)
 

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Hmmm. Did pimp have another meaning to what it means now? Or is it a case of a bored enumerator guessing at the word spoken in a local accent? Pimp is Welsh for 5, however.

I used Pimp because that was what the OP wrote in #7, although later posts suggest it should be Pump. (There is a village in Dorset called Pimperne and I am sure that the inhabitants are of the highest moral standing.)
 

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One other thing about census data and inaccuraces in it. The enumerators were clerks from workhouse unions and when not doing censuses, would be administering poor relief. A lot of workkhouse refeif was 'outdoor relief' which was cash payments to keep paupers at home rather than the workhouse.
But people told fibs to the workhouse to defraud the workhouse unuin. So they needed to tell the same fibs to the census enumerator as they told to the workhouse clerk as they were the same person.
 

Big Jumby 74

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I did make that very same point in my earlier reply (#16)
You did indeed. Please accept my apologies. Looking on the plus side, Andy873 can be assured beyond doubt (more than one person has mentioned same) that this transcription issue is/can be a real headache.

The worst example I ever came across was one of my off-shoot lines, family by the name of 'LINTON', originated from the Pompey area in 18th century, but by mid 19th c were in my neck of the woods, Ealing area. Can't remember which census year it was off hand as I type this, but had lost hope of finding them (this was pre internet, in the days of M/F readers at Chancery Lane, and the later Family Records Centre just round corner from London Metrop' Archives - as they were then), and I had all but given up hope of finding them. And then internet came to life with, certain sites, and I eventually found them listed under the name 'FENTON'.
No idea if my communication to whichever site it was, saw the transcription amended/corrected or not, but when I read through that particular enumerator's entire contribution, bearing in mind those compiling same were often known to many people who's details they were collecting, I got the distinct gut feeling that in this instance he may have been 'invited' in for a wee tipple at many of the homes he visited, as his writing went down hill, as in off a cliff. Just thinking about that possible scenario creases me up to this day!

Anyway, that's enough of the OT reminiscences from me.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

So they needed to tell the same fibs to the census enumerator as they told to the workhouse clerk as they were the same person.
If they could remember what they'd said and when!:lol:
 

Andy873

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I used Pimp because that was what the OP wrote in #7, although later posts suggest it should be Pump. (There is a village in Dorset called Pimperne and I am sure that the inhabitants are of the highest moral standing.)
Pimp was a typo by me, yes it should be Pump House, sorry folks.

I'm pretty sure that is "Member of firm J & R Stone." I think we had that business come up earlier, though I can't recall where.
You've just beaten me to it. Yes, Member of firm J & R Stone is what I think it says.
But you need to come to your own interpretation, I think it’s:
Railway Contractor (Member of Firm of T&R Stone employs 350 Men) - it’s good they’ve picked up the 350 men, as it overspills into the next line, they’d often miss that.

Thanks to the sharp eyes here, I can forget the Prison word, it is as you all say Firm. Once we get to the word firm, we can now join the dots as I know it should be T & R Stone. The Industrial Locomotive Society's list of railway contractors have them listed from 1881 onwards when their father died that year.

Towards the end of 1876, the loop line is nearing completion and the end of the works is in sight. With this, Thomas Stone (the father) puts in a tender for the new Wigan Junction Railway and wins despite it not being the cheapest. The railway company for the new line decide that the quality of his work done on the loop construction together with getting the difficult line built is good enough for them.

What seems happened was Thomas (senior) has one eye on retiring and knowing his two sons are more than capable of the new works, he effectively hands over the contract to his sons. After death the contract would have officially passed to the sons.

The mention of the son's firm employing 350 people is an interesting fact to me, that's a lot of people. Many of these would have migrated from the loop line works to the Wigan works which started in October 1876, along with any spare equipment etc.

After typing up 25 pages just on the construction of the loop line alone, I thought it would be a nice way to sign the section off with what the main characters went off to do next.
 

swt_passenger

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Thanks to the sharp eyes here, I can forget the Prison word, it is as you all say Firm. Once we get to the word firm, we can now join the dots as I know it should be T & R Stone. The Industrial Locomotive Society's list of railway contractors have them listed from 1881 onwards when their father died that year.

Towards the end of 1876, the loop line is nearing completion and the end of the works is in sight. With this, Thomas Stone (the father) puts in a tender for the new Wigan Junction Railway and wins despite it not being the cheapest. The railway company for the new line decide that the quality of his work done on the loop construction together with getting the difficult line built is good enough for them.

What seems happened was Thomas (senior) has one eye on retiring and knowing his two sons are more than capable of the new works, he effectively hands over the contract to his sons. After death the contract would have officially passed to the sons.

The mention of the son's firm employing 350 people is an interesting fact to me, that's a lot of people. Many of these would have migrated from the loop line works to the Wigan works which started in October 1876, along with any spare equipment etc.

After typing up 25 pages just on the construction of the loop line alone, I thought it would be a nice way to sign the section off with what the main characters went off to do next.
Thanks for the summary, it’s good that it adds effectively to your other research.
 

Big Jumby 74

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The mention of the son's firm employing 350 people is an interesting fact to me, that's a lot of people
It wasn't that far in the past, in relation to the time you are researching, that the railway building bonanza (1840's) and the Irish potato famine sort of coincided to a degree, so there was likely no shortage of willing labour during those years. My own Scots ancestors left Glasgow for London during those years, in my instant it was for specific work in a certain trade, but for many (Glaswegians) in general, the city was becoming inundated with Immigrants from Ireland during those years, and many, Glaswegians and others, also headed further afield across the Pond, including some of mine. So I come from an understanding of the wider transitional moves taking place in those years.

PS: just to be clear, when I use a phrase such as 'inundated', I do so having put myself in the mindset of my own family at the time, to try and understand why they made the decisions they did (as in uprooting and moving to The Smoke - for work - or overseas, for same reasons), so please do not give me any grief for using such wording. I only do so to try to explain the wider situation at the time.
 
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swt_passenger

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Thomas Stone’s entry in the probate record in 1882 is as follows:

IMG_1699.jpeg

So that tells us it took 15 months to prove his will, and I was wondering if you’d thought of obtaining a copy of his will - it might give an insight into his various businesses, and his son’s different responsibilities?

Probate certificates and wills (if held) are publicly available for a small fee (a bargain at £1.50) from the government website here, they usually take less than a week to be produced:


(Of course @Andy873 you may already have realised all this, if so my apologies…)
 
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