CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[tfw756rider]

Realtime Trains | 3Q81 2130 Crewe South Yard to Machynlleth | 10/07/2025

Real-time train running information for 3Q81 2130 departure from Crewe South Yard to Machynlleth on 10/07/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

197s testing on the Cambrian Line tonight.

Many thanks Jacob

Realtime Trains | 3Q81 2130 Crewe South Yard to Machynlleth | 10/07/2025

Real-time train running information for 3Q81 2130 departure from Crewe South Yard to Machynlleth on 10/07/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 3Q82 2358 Machynlleth to Welshpool | 10/07/2025

Real-time train running information for 3Q82 2358 departure from Machynlleth to Welshpool on 10/07/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 3Q83 0145 Welshpool to Newtown (Powys) | 11/07/2025

Real-time train running information for 3Q83 0145 departure from Welshpool to Newtown (Powys) on 11/07/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 3Q84 0225 Newtown (Powys) to Crewe South Yard | 11/07/2025

Real-time train running information for 3Q84 0225 departure from Newtown (Powys) to Crewe South Yard on 11/07/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

And tomorrow night:

Realtime Trains | 3Q81 2130 Crewe South Yard to Machynlleth | 11/07/2025

Real-time train running information for 3Q81 2130 departure from Crewe South Yard to Machynlleth on 11/07/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 3Q82 2358 Machynlleth to Welshpool | 11/07/2025

Real-time train running information for 3Q82 2358 departure from Machynlleth to Welshpool on 11/07/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 3Q83 0145 Welshpool to Newtown (Powys) | 12/07/2025

Real-time train running information for 3Q83 0145 departure from Welshpool to Newtown (Powys) on 12/07/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 3Q84 0225 Newtown (Powys) to Crewe South Yard | 12/07/2025

Real-time train running information for 3Q84 0225 departure from Newtown (Powys) to Crewe South Yard on 12/07/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2025 ==

197027 is now in service, starting on 04:55 Chester to Manchester Airport this morning
Looks like theres 4 ERTMS sets in service today with non currently booked to end at Holyhead

Thanks @sd0733

197027 is the 11th ETCS-fitted 197 to have entered service @Peter Sarf.

This now means that 67 (of 77) 197s have been in service.


41 (of 51) 2-car 197s have been in service:

All 30 non-ETCS 2-cars (197001-002, 197004-021, 197042-051)

11 (of 21) ETCS-fitted 2-cars (197003, 197022, 197024, 197027-031, 197033-035)


All 26 3-car 197s have been in service:

All 12 188-seat 3-cars (197101-112)

All 14 174-seat 3-cars (197113-126)

==============================

The number of 197s still to enter service is down to 10, all ETCS-fitted 2-cars:

197023, 197025-026, 197032, 197036-041

==============================

The overall number of new Transport for Wales (TfW) trains that have been in service is now up to 101 (of 148):

41 (of 51) 197/0s
All 26 197/1s
All 11 231s
6 (of 7) 756/0s
All 17 756/1s

This leaves 47 new TfW trains still to enter service:

10 197/0s
36 398s
1 756/0

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Here are this month's Cambrian 197s (not my video)

Shared on behalf of a mate.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jul 2025 ==

How often to the 197s go to Central Rivers for tyre turning please?

 

[craigybagel]

How often to the 197s go to Central Rivers for tyre turning please?

Every Monday, and every second Thursday (3 sets per 2 weeks).

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Every Monday, and every second Thursday (3 sets per 2 weeks).

Thank you.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is there anything online about this either of you could provide a link to please? This is the first I've heard of it (earlier this year I read that TfW hadn't any plans for fleet changes beyond completing the rollout of their announced plans) and I'd be interested to learn more.

The recent North Wales Metro announcement covers "new" service enhancement plans.
It also majors on electrification planning in the north, so more standard 197s won't benefit any of that.

These announcements don't actually say "new train procurement" but I'm sure it came during the briefings given to reporters at the time (eg Modern Railways July p12).
The WG statement by Ken Skates and linked brochure is really detailed about what is intended in the north over the next decade.

Written Statement: Network North Wales (22 May 2025) | GOV.WALES

Ken Skates, Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales

www.gov.wales

Today I am launching Network North Wales.
At its heart will be metro services and today I am announcing the steps we are taking to deliver them.
Network North Wales is a hugely ambitious and transformative programme of work to better connect communities, with more rail and bus services, new stations, new transport routes, new trains, new buses and new technology.

At its heart will be the North Wales metro services. This will take a cross-border approach to transforming public transport in the Mersey-Dee area, including metro style services on the North Wales mainline and a new, direct rail link between Wrexham and Liverpool.
The vision for the programme is backed up by a delivery plan which covers short-term (0-12 months), medium-term (1-3 and 5 years) and long-term (to 2035 and beyond).

I have reshaped Transport budgets to provide sufficient investment to deliver immediate priorities, including bringing forward the 50% increase in services across the North Wales mainline to May from December of next year, increasing train services between Wrexham and Chester by 100% from next May, introducing Pay as You Go technology in North Wales from next year, exploring the feasibility of a new test railway station at Deeside Industrial Park and a new electrification innovation fund.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Is there anything online about this either of you could provide a link to please? This is the first I've heard of it (earlier this year I read that TfW hadn't any plans for fleet changes beyond completing the rollout of their announced plans) and I'd be interested to learn more. Either here or in the new topic I recently started to avoid leading this one off-topic.

There's this post from another thread that provides a link to a Modern Railways article (subscription required) and includes a quoted section from said article.

 

[tfw756rider]

There's this post from another thread that provides a link to a Modern Railways article (subscription required) and includes a quoted section from said article.

This post has the more relevant text (in the last paragraph).

 

[FrontSideBus]

Interesting.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The recent North Wales Metro announcement covers "new" service enhancement plans.
It also majors on electrification planning in the north, so more standard 197s won't benefit any of that.

These announcements don't actually say "new train procurement" but I'm sure it came during the briefings given to reporters at the time (eg Modern Railways July p12).
The WG statement by Ken Skates and linked brochure is really detailed about what is intended in the north over the next decade.

Written Statement: Network North Wales (22 May 2025) | GOV.WALES

Ken Skates, Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales

www.gov.wales

Thanks (and to Lewisham2221 and tfw756rider too, for the additonal links). I think I had actually seen some of that 'North Wales Metro' stuff but the mention of 'Wrexham-Liverpool line/service' could have been designed to confuse me. There is of course the 'Borderlands Line' (Wrexham Central to Bidston) and the line between Wrexham General and Chester (which was partially redoubled during ATW franchise but some remains single track). I seem to recall that part of the 2018-2033 franchise agreement was to introduced hourly Liverpool-Chester services (which happend within weeks of the franchise launch) and to extend this at least as far as Wrexham on a regular basis (not sure whether this would have been hourly or only every two hours), with at least some of those running through to Cardiff. This would, have course, been accounted for in the procurement of the 77 class 197s that have (mostly) now already entered service with TfW.

 

[Envoy]

I recently went on a 197 and found the ride on the bogie to be pretty bad. Further back, there was a terrible hum from the air con unit - enough to give you a migraine. Odd that some passengers get on a train and seem to not notice such things and move given enough spare seats.

 

[WirralLine]

I recently went on a 197 and found the ride on the bogie to be pretty bad. Further back, there was a terrible hum from the air con unit - enough to give you a migraine. Odd that some passengers get on a train and seem to not notice such things and move given enough spare seats.

I also noticed the air con gear on some of them drones at an awful frequency, majority of them are ok in that regard though.

 

[Envoy]

I also noticed the air con gear on some of them drones at an awful frequency, majority of them are ok in that regard though.

197126 was the one I was on - should anyone at TFW read this and wish to check it out.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Thanks (and to Lewisham2221 and tfw756rider too, for the additonal links). I think I had actually seen some of that 'North Wales Metro' stuff but the mention of 'Wrexham-Liverpool line/service' could have been designed to confuse me. There is of course the 'Borderlands Line' (Wrexham Central to Bidston) and the line between Wrexham General and Chester (which was partially redoubled during ATW franchise but some remains single track). I seem to recall that part of the 2018-2033 franchise agreement was to introduced hourly Liverpool-Chester services (which happend within weeks of the franchise launch) and to extend this at least as far as Wrexham on a regular basis (not sure whether this would have been hourly or only every two hours), with at least some of those running through to Cardiff. This would, have course, been accounted for in the procurement of the 77 class 197s that have (mostly) now already entered service with TfW.

The TfW CAF/Stadler train orders preceded the purchase of additional Mk4 trains, and the plan for them to operate alternate Cardiff-Manchester trains.
Thus there should be a surplus of 197s as fewer will be needed on the Marches run.
The Liverpool-Chester service runs through to Wrexham (if only 1tpd).
On infrastructure, Shrewsbury-Gobowen has been upgraded largely to 90mph and Connah's Quay-Colwyn Bay has been resignalled into Cardiff ROC, plus the Halton Curve is in regular use.

Of course the blurb on the North Wales Metro could be achieved just by extending electrification south of Bidston by a few miles, and extending more Liverpool-Chester services to Wrexham...
But I think the ambition is much more than that.

 

[Jez]

The TfW CAF/Stadler train orders preceded the purchase of additional Mk4 trains, and the plan for them to operate alternate Cardiff-Manchester trains.
Thus there should be a surplus of 197s as fewer will be needed on the Marches run.
The Liverpool-Chester service runs through to Wrexham (if only 1tpd).
On infrastructure, Shrewsbury-Gobowen has been upgraded largely to 90mph and Connah's Quay-Colwyn Bay has been resignalled into Cardiff ROC, plus the Halton Curve is in regular use.

Of course the blurb on the North Wales Metro could be achieved just by extending electrification south of Bidston by a few miles, and extending more Liverpool-Chester services to Wrexham...
But I think the ambition is much more than that.

Originally the 170s were going to be kept for the HOWL/Crewe Stopper and I think Swanline plus of course West Wales. When it was decided not to keep the 170s and have the MK4's the 197s that would have been on the Marches are now on Swanline and West Wales services to Pembroke Dock etc.

Chances are the 197s currently being used on Maesteg/Ebbw/Cheltenham are the ones on paper that will eventually be on the Liverpool services to North Wales and Cardiff plus any extra services in the North.

 

[Rhydgaled]

On infrastructure, Shrewsbury-Gobowen has been upgraded largely to 90mph and Connah's Quay-Colwyn Bay has been resignalled into Cardiff ROC, plus the Halton Curve is in regular use.

Of course the blurb on the North Wales Metro could be achieved just by extending electrification south of Bidston by a few miles, and extending more Liverpool-Chester services to Wrexham...

Indeed, I can't work out whether Mr Skates was talking about finally being able to deliver the already-planned extension of more Halton Curve services to Wrexham (and beyond?) or a new project to extend the Borderlands services beyond Bidston into Liverpool city centre.

The TfW CAF/Stadler train orders preceded the purchase of additional Mk4 trains, and the plan for them to operate alternate Cardiff-Manchester trains.
Thus there should be a surplus of 197s as fewer will be needed on the Marches run.

Originally the 170s were going to be kept for the HOWL/Crewe Stopper and I think Swanline plus of course West Wales. When it was decided not to keep the 170s and have the MK4's the 197s that would have been on the Marches are now on Swanline and West Wales services to Pembroke Dock etc.

That's my understanding too Jez (ie. the 170s were for HOWL and Pembrokeshire services, and have been replaced (not necessarily directly) by keeping some 153s and obtaining extra mark 4s). It's possible that some routes will see class 197/1 instead of 197/0 (ie. 3-car instead of 2-car units) as a result of that change though, since the mark 4 sets on services to Manchester are doing what was planned to be 5-car class 197 work.

 

[Jez]

That's my understanding too Jez (ie. the 170s were for HOWL and Pembrokeshire services, and have been replaced (not necessarily directly) by keeping some 153s and obtaining extra mark 4s). It's possible that some routes will see class 197/1 instead of 197/0 (ie. 3-car instead of 2-car units) as a result of that change though, since the mark 4 sets on services to Manchester are doing what was planned to be 5-car class 197 work.

It seems at the moment Maesteg and Cheltenham services are very often 3 car 197s whilst Pembroke Dock/Swanline are 2 cars. a 2 car on Pembroke Dock is usually fine especially in Winter but Swanline could ideally do with 3 cars, can get very busy at certain times especially as most call at Pencoed, Llanharan etc.

 

[Envoy]

It seems at the moment Maesteg and Cheltenham services are very often 3 car 197s whilst Pembroke Dock/Swanline are 2 cars. a 2 car on Pembroke Dock is usually fine especially in Winter but Swanline could ideally do with 3 cars, can get very busy at certain times especially as most call at Pencoed, Llanharan etc.

Incredibly they have also been using 2 car 150’s on the Cheltenham run. (Seeing that I would have been stuck on a 150, I had to go with Cross Country down to Bristol Parkway and then GWR to Cardiff the other day).

 

[Jez]

Incredibly they have also been using 2 car 150’s on the Cheltenham run. (Seeing that I would have been stuck on a 150, I had to go with Cross Country down to Bristol Parkway and then GWR to Cardiff the other day).

Yes unfortunately Cheltenham and Maesteg-Ebbw Vale do seem to be the first choice when a 150 is needed to cover, to keep them off the long distance services. Although you could argue that Cheltenham should have priority for 197s over Maesteg/Ebbw Vale.

 

[vicbury]

Yes unfortunately Cheltenham and Maesteg-Ebbw Vale do seem to be the first choice when a 150 is needed to cover, to keep them off the long distance services. Although you could argue that Cheltenham should have priority for 197s over Maesteg/Ebbw Vale.

Cheltenham also unfortunately seems to be first or second choice for cancellations when there is a shortage of rolling stock. Fine for those who can use CrossCountry all the way, but not for those left behind in between.

 

[tfw756rider]

On Mon 21/7/25, I was travelling on 1V44 1330 Manchester Piccadilly to Pembroke (between Cardiff Central and Carmarthen), operated with 197007 Happy Valley+197102, and, in 197007 Happy Valley, I noticed that the passenger information screen didn't provide a Welsh-language version of the message "This train will not be calling at Pembroke Dock". Where the Welsh version should've been, it said "CY This train will not be calling at Pembroke Dock".

 

[nigelsporne]

It appears that there is now a second 197 diagram into Birmingham International.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

It appears that there is now a second 197 diagram into Birmingham International.

I saw 197107 at Telford Central yesterday around 10am heading towards Shrewsbury.

 

[sd0733]

It appears that there is now a second 197 diagram into Birmingham International.

Looks to be a 3 car 197 going forwards too.

Full diagram is:
05:56 Chester to Crewe
06:59 Crewe to Holyhead
09:23 Holyhead to Birmingham International
14:08 Birmingham International to Shrewsbury
15:30 Shrewsbury to Birmingham International
17:08 Birmingham International to Llandudno
20:26 Llandudno to Crewe

 

[Envoy]

On Mon 21/7/25, I was travelling on 1V44 1330 Manchester Piccadilly to Pembroke (between Cardiff Central and Carmarthen), operated with 197007 Happy Valley+197102, and, in 197007 Happy Valley, I noticed that the passenger information screen didn't provide a Welsh-language version of the message "This train will not be calling at Pembroke Dock". Where the Welsh version should've been, it said "CY This train will not be calling at Pembroke Dock".

Not to worry as south Pembrokeshire is south of the Landkser Line so everybody should know English.

A 'border line' is exactly what it once was. It was meant to separate the 'Englishry' of South Pembrokeshire from the generally less fertile 'Welshry' of the north. Landsker

Landsker | Pembrokeshire's border | Tom East

The Landsker Line is the border between the Welshry of North of Pembrokeshire and 'Little England Beyond Wales'.

www.benybont.org

 

[Krokodil]

Looks to be a 3 car 197 going forwards too.

Which will be a bit of a relief. As a two car 158 1I14 was usually wedged by the time that it got to Chester

 

[Lewisham2221]

Which will be a bit of a relief. As a two car 158 1I14 was usually wedged by the time that it got to Chester

On the flip side, I'm fairly sure 1I20/1D16 used to be 4 or 6 car 158 from SHR-BHI-SHR.

However, I guess this is an attempt to make better use of capacity over the summer. As you say, it provides an extra carriage along the North Wales coast, and presumably releases a (couple of??) 158s for the Cambrian - whereas at least there are plenty of alternatives available between BHI and SHR.

 

[sd0733]

On the flip side, I'm fairly sure 1I20/1D16 used to be 4 or 6 car 158 from SHR-BHI-SHR.

Yes used to be a 6 car with an Aberystwyth set and one terminated as well ad the Llandudno.
It may well cope over the summer but 3 once the schools go back could be interesting if its still there. As @Krokodil says though getting a bit of extra capacity up the coast will be handy.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Not to worry as south Pembrokeshire is south of the Landkser Line so everybody should know English.

As does pretty much everyone who speaks Welsh.

 

[craigybagel]

Yes used to be a 6 car with an Aberystwyth set and one terminated as well ad the Llandudno.
It may well cope over the summer but 3 once the schools go back could be interesting if its still there. As @Krokodil says though getting a bit of extra capacity up the coast will be handy.

There was a time when there was pretty much a standing order in place that if it ran as less than 6, not to calls would be issued for Telford and Wellington on the trip back from Birmingham. In these post COVID times it's not quite as bad as that, but it does struggle when it's a 4 car. Hopefully the Summer holidays will suppress commuters enough for it to cope with 3 x 197. At the very least, it shouldn't take an eternity for everyone to get off at Telford as it does with 158s.....

 

[sd0733]

There was a time when there was pretty much a standing order in place that if it ran as less than 6, not to calls would be issued for Telford and Wellington on the trip back from Birmingham. In these post COVID times it's not quite as bad as that, but it does struggle when it's a 4 car. Hopefully the Summer holidays will suppress commuters enough for it to cope with 3 x 197. At the very least, it shouldn't take an eternity for everyone to get off at Telford as it does with 158s.....

I remember those days, and when things really were bad and a 2 car 153 went up on it.
I imagine the WM service increases may well have spread the load somewhat as well now with the faster service.
Like you say the wider doors on a 197 may well make it slightly less unbearable than an overcrowded 158, and certainly quicker for the Guard doing the doors than fighting to the panel on a 158 every stop!