The diffence in price for a through ticket between Edinburgh & Bury St Edmunds and Haymarket to Bury St Edmunds

[Ziggiesden]

A young lady with her Senior RailCard came in to do a booking today. Originally the lady wanted Edinburgh to Bury St Edmunds but changed her mind and decided to board from us at Haymarket.

The return journey was also booked after a change of day and time until we found one that did not involve buses and was at a reasonable price for the following Saturday. The lady spent just under £145 at the end. The lady even gets a free magical mystery tour between Newcastle and Carlisle on the journey home at no extra cost although that nice bit of the ECML will be missed.

Assistance was also booked for her as two sperate bookings (SDS to / from Edinburgh – Haymarket) to give her a bit of time at Edinburgh as the transaction ended up being a Combination of Tickets. Reasonably safe since the lady planned a taxi from Haymarket to get home in the event the trains home lost a few hours somewhere.

Transaction time: forty-five minutes.

Notice the price differential of £125.60. It should be noted that the 11:11 from Haymarket is classed as a local service. Bike reservations and seat reservations are not possible. The reason that is shown as reservable in the system is so that “counted places” Advance tickets can be sold for it.

Train running time between Haymarket and Edinburgh is four minutes.

Do you think this is fair pricing?

What are your opinions about “counted places” and no bike reservations on certain services that connect into mainline services that do have reservations e.g. Perth to Inverness when the service to Perth is non-reservable and only has two bike spaces?

The lady thanked me at the end as she had tried to do it online and couldn’t get it to work. The lady was quite intelligent and articulate in her knowledge, requesting Facing Individual Seats in First Class accommodation.



Reserve a cycle space | Bikes on trains | ScotRail

 

[Haywain]

Do you think this is fair pricing?

Comparing the price of an Anytime Single with that of an Advance Single is like comparing the price cheese with the price of eggs. They are different things.

 

[AlterEgo]

Assistance was also booked for her as two sperate bookings (SDS to / from Edinburgh – Haymarket) to give her a bit of time at Edinburgh as the transaction ended up being a Combination of Tickets. Reasonably safe since the lady planned a taxi from Haymarket to get home in the event the trains home lost a few hours somewhere.

Hopefully she isn't paying for that, and was instead advised by the helpful and knowledgeable ticket office staff that the railway has to pay for it should she be delayed enroute and stranded.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I really hope you scrolled down

 

[JB_B]

I really hope you scrolled down

Just out of interest, what would they have seen if they did? Would it show the OCQ advance fare from Edinburgh? (Or perhaps something about inter-availability?)

 

[voyagerdude220]

Notice the price differential of £125.60. It should be noted that the 11:11 from Haymarket is classed as a local service. Bike reservations and seat reservations are not possible. The reason that is shown as reservable in the system is so that “counted places” Advance tickets can be sold for it.

Why did you book her on the 11:11 Haymarket to Edinburgh when the connecting train from Edinburgh to York called at Haymarket at 11:10?

Admittedly as Ticket Office staff myself, I know how user unfriendly Journey Planner can be at times.

 

[Ziggiesden]

Why did you book her on the 11:11 Haymarket to Edinburgh when the connecting train from Edinburgh to York called at Haymarket at 11:10?

Admittedly as Ticket Office staff myself, I know how user unfriendly Journey Planner can be at times.

Cheaper.

 

[Ziggiesden]

Hopefully she isn't paying for that, and was instead advised by the helpful and knowledgeable ticket office staff that the railway has to pay for it should she be delayed enroute and stranded.

NRCoT 28.2 is only applicable to through journeys on a "ticket". "Tickets" are not covered except at the discretion of the TOC concerned - sometimes they do but today on ScotRail, as an example, the instruction was "At this time, passengers are advised to make their own travel arrangements." with the overhead issues at Hyndland. Deplorable, in my opinion, but they do now have some buses running although there weren't when I went to work today and had to use the 6A between Anniesland and Glasgow Queen street.

 

[AlterEgo]

NRCoT 28.2 is only applicable to through journeys on a "ticket".

As you’ve been told many times, that’s not true, and misinformation.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Cheaper.

Did it make much difference, seeing Haymarket to Waverley is such a short journey?

 

[Deerfold]

Did it make much difference, seeing Haymarket to Waverley is such a short journey?

As the OP mentioned and screenshots show, a difference of £125.60.

I experience similar (though not quite such a difference) on my local line, meaning I always split at Leeds unless I'm on the daily LNER service to my local station.

 

[transportphoto]

NRCoT 28.2 is only applicable to through journeys on a "ticket". "Tickets" are not covered except at the discretion of the TOC concerned - sometimes they do but today on ScotRail, as an example, the instruction was "At this time, passengers are advised to make their own travel arrangements." with the overhead issues at Hyndland. Deplorable, in my opinion, but they do now have some buses running although there weren't when I went to work today and had to use the 6A between Anniesland and Glasgow Queen street.

As you’ve been told many times, that’s not true, and misinformation.

Agreed with @AlterEgo here.

“Ticket” in 28.2 is capitalised which indicates it’s a keyword with a definition in appendix B. Appendix B makes reference to using more than one ticket for a journey. 14.2 defines that you may use more than one ticket for a singular journey.

NRCoC needs to be read as a whole document not in individual parts.

Your approach towards helping customers worries me. I hope ScotRail read this thread and are able to offer you retraining.

 

[hexagon789]

As the OP mentioned and screenshots show, a difference of £125.60.

The forum website begs to disagree, and regardless a single from Haymarket to Waverley could've been added on and is peanuts extra compared to that £204-odd fare.

 

[MicroLithium]

As the OP mentioned and screenshots show, a difference of £125.60

But the cheaper fare is an advance, the more expensive an anytime single. Surely this isn’t a fair fare comparison

 

[Deerfold]

But the cheaper fare is an advance, the more expensive an anytime single. Surely this isn’t a fair fare comparison

Advance tickets aren't available on that train from Haymarket.

The forum website begs to disagree, and regardless a single from Haymarket to Waverley could've been added on and is peanuts extra compared to that £204-odd fare.

The forum website is spitting to allow that. That's a good thing, but not what ticket offices do.

 

[voyagerdude220]

The forum website begs to disagree, and regardless a single from Haymarket to Waverley could've been added on and is peanuts extra compared to that £204-odd fare.

That's what I suspected- that the saving on such a short journey would be peanuts for the sake of inconveniencing the passenger.

 

[transportphoto]

The forum website is spitting to allow that. That's a good thing, but not what ticket offices do.

Apart from when they selectively apply rules to suit - I agree that ticket offices shouldn’t be proactively offering splits.

It reads as if the customer was warned about the risks of using split tickets but was sold them anyway.

Assistance was also booked for her as two sperate bookings (SDS to / from Edinburgh – Haymarket) to give her a bit of time at Edinburgh as the transaction ended up being a Combination of Tickets. Reasonably safe since the lady planned a taxi from Haymarket to get home in the event the trains home lost a few hours somewhere.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Advance tickets aren't available on that train from Haymarket.

The forum website is spitting to allow that. That's a good thing, but not what ticket offices do.

But surely the combined cost of the cheap Advance ticket on the 11:30 from Waverley plus the cost of the additional single from Haymarket to Waverley for the same train (to avoid changing at Waverley, which is by no means a user friendly Station in my opinion) would only be marginally more compared with the cost of the journey involving the change at Waverley.

 

[hexagon789]

The forum website is spitting to allow that. That's a good thing, but not what ticket offices do.

I'll accept that for the through Advances, but adding on a single for Haymarket to Waverley which is ~£1.50 IIRC is surely just common sense?

 

[Deerfold]

I'll accept that for the through Advances, but adding on a single for Haymarket to Waverley which is ~£1.50 IIRC is surely just common sense?

It is, but it's not what most ticket systems will offer.

 

[hexagon789]

It is, but it's not what most ticket systems will offer.

Reason 102 not to bother with ticket offices...

 

[Gathursty]

Transaction time: forty-five minutes.

Crikey! Must have been some queue forming behind that customer.

 

[voyagerdude220]

It is, but it's not what most ticket systems will offer.

Sometimes what I read on this Forum genuinely startles me at times in relation to examples of Colleagues seemingly not offering Customers easy ways of making their journeys simpler at little or no cost/effort.

Baring in mind I live and work in a completely different country, even I know when given the option to I should route passengers to change at Haymarket instead of Waverley for an easier connection. It drives me mad that Journey Planner often routes pax via Waverley from the West Coast Mainline towards connections towards say Inverness or Aberdeen instead of Haymarket.

 

[styles]

Sometimes what I read on this Forum genuinely startles me at times in relation to examples of Colleagues seemingly not offering Customers easy ways of making their journeys simpler at little or no cost/effort.

Baring in mind I live and work in a completely different country, even I know when given the option to I should route passengers to change at Haymarket instead of Waverley for an easier connection. It drives me mad that Journey Planner often routes pax via Waverley from the West Coast Mainline towards connections towards say Inverness or Aberdeen instead of Haymarket.

It's one of those things where the industry ties itself up in complicated ticketing and rigid policy to the detriment of passengers. Sadly all too common.

Ticket offices offering split tickets (either proactively or upon passenger request) was discussed recently in this thread about the preference (or not) of using ticket offices: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/preference-to-buy-tickets-from-a-ticket-office.287303/

Best thing about this particular example is that you can do Waverley or Haymarket to Bury St Edmond's for £21.10 leaving an hour later with one less change, or £30.35 leaving at the same time but with split tickets, standard class, booking on the ScotRail website. I wonder if a customer presented with the options of arrive 5pm 1st class for £204.15 or 7pm standard class for £21.10 might actually punt for standard class. But if you head to a ticket office and start out by saying you want to go 1st class, that's usually all you'll be priced for.

 

[voyagerdude220]

It's one of those things where the industry ties itself up in complicated ticketing and rigid policy to the detriment of passengers. Sadly all too common.

Ticket offices offering split tickets (either proactively or upon passenger request) was discussed recently in this thread about the preference (or not) of using ticket offices: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/preference-to-buy-tickets-from-a-ticket-office.287303/

Best thing about this particular example is that you can do Waverley or Haymarket to Bury St Edmond's for £21.10 leaving an hour later with one less change, or £30.35 leaving at the same time but with split tickets, standard class, booking on the ScotRail website. I wonder if a customer presented with the options of arrive 5pm 1st class for £204.15 or 7pm standard class for £21.10 might actually punt for standard class. But if you head to a ticket office and start out by saying you want to go 1st class, that's usually all you'll be priced for.

IMO Sadly Ticket Offices are put in an unfair position where Customers are able to use an app/website etc. to tell them what the cheapest combination of tickets is for their journey. Quite often I'll ask the customer what the particular combination of tickets is, so I know what to sell them, only to be greeted with a blank look and occasionally accusations of me not knowing how to do my job because I didn't know what the combination of tickets was.

 

[Ziggiesden]

Sometimes what I read on this Forum genuinely startles me at times in relation to examples of Colleagues seemingly not offering Customers easy ways of making their journeys simpler at little or no cost/effort.

Baring in mind I live and work in a completely different country, even I know when given the option to I should route passengers to change at Haymarket instead of Waverley for an easier connection. It drives me mad that Journey Planner often routes pax via Waverley from the West Coast Mainline towards connections towards say Inverness or Aberdeen instead of Haymarket.

I had an interesting one today on that theme - a lad travelling on his own had booked online for a journey from Aberdeen to Liverpool. The System had sold him a combination of tickets splitting at Penrith. He tried to board the 14:57. Alas, for him he did not speak English very well and he somehow managed to get on a Dunblane service and ended up back at Haymarket. I felt sorry for him so re-booked him on the next Avanti service (he had Advance tickets). He said he needed back through to get his stuff. It transpired his stuff was a bicycle. Alas, you cannot board with a bicycle at Haymarket and need to go to Edinburgh as the bicycle section is in the tunnel due to the train length. Trainline would normally route you via Edinburgh for that one so I can only assume he decided to change at Haymarket himself.

I booked his bicycle on the next service and set him through to Edinburgh to board there.

I arranged for him to get on that service even though it does not call at Penrith with his Combination of Tickets.

Lucky lad.

 

[Ziggiesden]

Agreed with @AlterEgo here.

“Ticket” in 28.2 is capitalised which indicates it’s a keyword with a definition in appendix B. Appendix B makes reference to using more than one ticket for a journey. 14.2 defines that you may use more than one ticket for a singular journey.

NRCoC needs to be read as a whole document not in individual parts.

Your approach towards helping customers worries me. I hope ScotRail read this thread and are able to offer you retraining.

Alas, ScotRail confirmed this was indeed the case and the old rule on a Combination of Tickets no longer applied - the old rule was that a Combination of Tickets sold at the same time from the same locaation was indeed regarded as a through ticket. I initially thought they could not do that but my research indicated that was now the case:

 

[MrJeeves]

Alas, ScotRail confirmed this was indeed the case and the old rule on a Combination of Tickets no longer applied

Who at ScotRail? When? Can you substantiate the claim?

You mention that the rights within the NRCoT are based on CIV, but they're not. CIV is your separate legal rights, while the NRCoT can expand upon these with contractual rights. You cannot read CIV and made deductions about the NRCoT as a result.

In fact, CIV explicitly states that the separate conditions of carriage from the operator(s) apply in addition. And the explanation of the NRCoT is rather concrete in defining the term "Ticket" as either one or a combination of tickets. If ScotRail wish to ignore these rules, they can campaign for the NRCoT to be changed.

 

[Mike395]

Who at ScotRail? When? Can you substantiate the claim?

You mention that the rights within the NRCoT are based on CIV, but they're not. CIV is your separate legal rights, while the NRCoT can expand upon these with contractual rights. You cannot read CIV and made deductions about the NRCoT as a result.

In fact, CIV explicitly states that the separate conditions of carriage from the operator(s) apply in addition. And the explanation of the NRCoT is rather concrete in defining the term "Ticket" as either one or a combination of tickets. If ScotRail wish to ignore these rules, they can campaign for the NRCoT to be changed.

It's worth noting that CIV and its obligations/protections is entirely irrelevent in the case of GB domestic rail tickets. CIV is only relevant in the case of cross-border (and no, Scotland is not a different country in this context) travel.

 

[Adam Williams]

It's also worth noting that none of the letters from RDG, DfT or Peter Hendy himself in that PDF file are explicitly setting out support for the mis-interpretation of NRCoT 28.2 that has been perpetuated in a number of posts.

The PDF attachment contains nothing in writing from Scotrail, as @MrJeeves has already set out.