Proposed new Channel Tunnel services discussion

[HSTEd]

They will support it until they see the subsidy bill to make it work.
It will then be quietly dropped.

 

[zwk500]

They will support it until they see the subsidy bill to make it work.
It will then be quietly dropped.

If they can agree a politically acceptable method of working the border I don't think the UK side subsidy would need to be that much.

Bigger question is how far the UK is willing to move off it's position on securing the platforms prior to inbound departure, and whether the Germans are willing to fund the changes required to meet the UK's requirements at Fa suitable station.

Direct London-Berlin feels like a stretch, but direct London-Frankfurt with guaranteed connection into ICE isn't ludicrous.

 

[sprunt]

Yes, this again but I think the two governments acknowledging the real obstacles and trying to overcome them is more promising than a TOC saying they want to run a service. There's obviously no shortage of potential suppliers.

London-Berlin trains on the drawing board for UK-German rail taskforce

Chance of direct services reignites hopes for better rail links across Europe as Stamer and Merz pledge to sign bilateral treaty

www.theguardian.com

Plans for possible direct trains from London to Berlin will be drawn up by a joint UK-German taskforce, reigniting hopes for better rail connections across Europe.

The partnership, announced as part of the bilateral treaty to be signed by the British prime minister, Keir Starmer, and his German counterpart, Friedrich Merz, could eventually lead to direct rail services between the two countries after previous plans for London-Frankfurt trains hit the buffers.

The Department for Transport described the agreement as a “significant step forward”, with direct trains the most eye-catching part of a commitment to collaborate in enhancing sustainable transport links and mobility.

Germany has also agreed to allow some arriving UK airline passengers to use passport e-gates at its airports by the end of August, the Cabinet Office said.

Since Brexit, UK travellers have needed to queue to have their passports manually stamped, rather than use automated gates, at EU airports.

A joint taskforce will bring together transport experts from Germany and the UK to tackle the issues that have blocked such services in the past, including commercial, safety and technical requirements, and, not least, border arrangements.

 

[stuu]

Berlin seems extremely unlikely, that would take 8+ hours. Frankfurt seems possible and the station is likely able to spare a platform for the border nonsense

 

[Backroom_boy]

Berlin seems extremely unlikely, that would take 8+ hours. Frankfurt seems possible and the station is likely able to spare a platform for the border nonsense

Yep StP to Frankfurt Central in about four and half hours if they find a path

 

[Cach17]

Haven't seen this mentioned yet elsewhere on the forum (unless I'm wrong!) -- apparently a new 'joint taskforce' is being established to 'pave the way' for new, direct UK-Germany rail services, as a result of the new friendship treaty; seems like a focus on London-Berlin:

Government agrees landmark plans to lay down the tracks for direct trains to Germany

A direct rail link between London and Germany could change how people travel between our two countries.

www.gov.uk

Cautiously optimistic, but definitely 'believe it when I see it'.

Pretty much every proposal in this thread falls under 'believe it when I see it'.

The London-Berlin journey time would be exceptionally long, even for a high speed service. Perhaps it'd be feasible if it were a sleeper?

 

[Trainbike46]

Yep StP to Frankfurt Central in about four and half hours if they find a path

In an ideal world, both Amsterdam and Frankfurt would have a 2-hourly service, that form an hourly service on the "core" Brussels-London corridor

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A London-Berlin service would look to be a distant prospect, given the logistics.
I suspect a service to Köln or Frankfurt will be tried first.
If governments cooperate, they might simplify the bureaucracy associated with current border processes (but I don't underestimate the task).
It will have to apply to FR/BE/NL services too.

 

[aron2smith]

This sounds absolutely incredible! I wasn't expecting as far as Berlin, thought they would run to Koln and Dusseldorf and leave it at that. I just hope tickets are priced sensibly on this service, someone needs to bring Eurostar down a peg.

And about time the Eurotunnel was used more, it has a lot of unused capacity. Just a shame the HS1-HS2 link was abandoned long ago, very short sighted. We need international rail services from major cities all over the country, not just London.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

International services are not subsidised, except possibly for the start-up phase for a new service.
Nobody is going to reduce Eurotunnel's (or the national railways') toll charges, which form a significant part of Eurostar's (or anybody else's) cost base.
London-Berlin looks like a 9-hour daytime journey time, with about 12 stops via Brussels, Köln and Hanover.
I don't think there are any infrastructure improvements planned on that route in the pipeline.
But at least it's on the agenda.

 

[TrenHotel]

It would be nice if they could bring back the joint DB/Eurostar tickets - London-Spezial was brilliant. That would be a good start.
There'll need to be a lot of work to make the route through Cologne more reliable too.

 

[Chester1]

Just waiting for the inevitable post that the UK needs to "grow up" or something to that effect and outsource its border controls to enable a handful of additonal international services to run... Or the other old chestnut of why don't we do onboard checks like in the good old days before 9/11 and mass people smuggling.

I really cannot see there being sufficient market to fill 900 seats between London and Berlin with a ~8 hour journey time. Even if we where in Schengen the proportion of end to end passengers would be very low. Apart from climate change activists and people with a phobia of flying, its just too long to consider. Frankfurt is probably viable with both government's providing some support.

 

[vuzzeho]

Haven't seen this mentioned yet elsewhere on the forum (unless I'm wrong!) -- apparently a new 'joint taskforce' is being established to 'pave the way' for new, direct UK-Germany rail services, as a result of the new friendship treaty; seems like a focus on London-Berlin:

Government agrees landmark plans to lay down the tracks for direct trains to Germany

A direct rail link between London and Germany could change how people travel between our two countries.

www.gov.uk

Cautiously optimistic, but definitely 'believe it when I see it'.

That's cool. Again, believe it when I see it, but I'm a hopeful person. I do wonder who exactly is meant to operate this? DB? GBR? DB and GBR? Eurostar? Same question with the Switzerland one, though I feel like that's going to be SBB.

 

[Trainbike46]

That's cool. Again, believe it when I see it, but I'm a hopeful person. I do wonder who exactly is meant to operate this? DB? GBR? DB and GBR? Eurostar? Same question with the Switzerland one, though I feel like that's going to be SBB.

Given the quote from Eurostar's CEO on the government announcement regarding the cooperation with Switzerland, I would expect either just Eurostar or a Eurostar SBB cooperation for that one.

 

[signed]

Given the quote from Eurostar's CEO on the government announcement regarding the cooperation with Switzerland, I would expect either just Eurostar or a Eurostar SBB cooperation for that one.

I doubt very much about that (for the CH part), I think SBB's international push is a want to get out of the international partnership nuclear bomb SNCF waiting to explode, this has happened before (Italy and Spain). Eurostar isn't likely in my mind to do it.

I can absolutely see Eurostar being involved in the German plan though, because DB and SNCF are best buddies.

 

[vuzzeho]

Given the quote from Eurostar's CEO on the government announcement regarding the cooperation with Switzerland, I would expect either just Eurostar or a Eurostar SBB cooperation for that one.

Interesting that they'd be giving it to Eurostar. With the Kent MPs complaining about the lack of Ashford and Ebbsfleet services and Eurostar not budging at all, I'm surprised that we'd give such an important new service to Eurostar, when it seems like they can and will ignore our wishes if they feel like it. I personally would've liked to see an international arm of GBR (when that's set up) operate these, but I get that it would be complex. I don't know if I misread the Eurostar Kent situation, but either way - weird move to give this hugely important new international link to a private company with no UK stake when the word on the lips of the DfT has been 'nationalisation'

 

[williamn]

Who knows if this will ever happen but it’s nice to see some attention paid to our train links to the continent - first the Swiss agreement and now this.

 

[Trainbike46]

I doubt very much about that (for the CH part), I think SBB's international push is a want to get out of the international partnership nuclear bomb SNCF waiting to explode, this has happened before (Italy and Spain). Eurostar isn't likely in my mind to do it.

I can absolutely see Eurostar being involved in the German plan though, because DB and SNCF are best buddies.

SNCF does seem very bad at cooperating, based on the Spanish example in particular.

Thalys used to have something to do with DB, despite competing against the DB-led ICE international cooperation. Not sure what happened with that.

Eurostar seems to cooperate with NS very well, so they may well be okay at cooperating with SBB, even if SNCF itself is utterly terrible at that.

Interesting that they'd be giving it to Eurostar. With the Kent MPs complaining about the lack of Ashford and Ebbsfleet services and Eurostar not budging at all, I'm surprised that we'd give such an important new service to Eurostar, when it seems like they can and will ignore our wishes if they feel like it. I personally would've liked to see an international arm of GBR (when that's set up) operate these, but I get that it would be complex. I don't know if I misread the Eurostar Kent situation, but either way - weird move to give this hugely important new international link to a private company with no UK stake when the word on the lips of the DfT has been 'nationalisation'

Formally, they'd probably not be "giving" the service to anyone; If there are subsidies at all, there'll presumably be a tender for it, and if there aren't direct subsidies, but it is about removing barriers etc., then any operator would technically be open to run (some of) the services.

I'm just noting that it seems Eurostar is involved in some way, because their CEO was literally in the UK government press release.

 

[jack31439]

This does make me feel more hopeful than the other press releases and noise made in the past year or so. We all know the constraints and problems at STP and beyond, but if there is genuine will from governmental level then I am positive that things might happen, studies done, money spent and maybe, just maybe, trains run.

 

[aron2smith]

I really cannot see there being sufficient market to fill 900 seats between London and Berlin with a ~8 hour journey time. Even if we where in Schengen the proportion of end to end passengers would be very low. Apart from climate change activists and people with a phobia of flying, its just too long to consider. Frankfurt is probably viable with both government's providing some support.

Why would you want any train with multiple stops to be full from the first stop alone? That makes no sense. It's as much about providing a journey opportunity as it is about improving the services along the way. It depends on the route and timetable but if people in Belgium want to go to Berlin direct for example, that would be as beneficial as it is to us in London. Personally, I want to see some sleeper services from St Pancras to places all over the Continent and surprised they aren't a thing already.

8 hours on a Voyager may be terrible but if the train is designed to be comfortable for longer journeys, I think people would choose it so long as it's priced appropriately. Europe is a good compact size and dense population to have a viable high speed continental rail network that could be a good alternative to flying I think, especially if geography and political issues are reduced. Rail Baltica comes to mind between Finland and Estonia. And it would be difficult but if an Irish rail tunnel was ever possible, I think that would take significant numbers off of flights.

I've done Inverness to London in one day (8 hour journey on the direct LNER route) and it was a long day but it was doable. Much prefer that over 8 hours in a car or coach! Not having to change at Edinburgh is useful in ways that really make taking the train that much more attractive. Just because few people will do the full route, doesn't stop the improved connectivity being really important. It's not just about the numbers who use this all the way to Berlin, the potential with developments like this is massive!

 

[stuu]

Why would you want any train with multiple stops to be full from the first stop alone? That makes no sense. It's as much about providing a journey opportunity as it is about improving the services along the way. It depends on the route and timetable but if people in Belgium want to go to Berlin direct for example, that would be as beneficial as it is to us in London.

The border issues mean that it could only be used for intermediate journeys on the way to Berlin, not on the way back. Otherwise everyone would need to get off in Brussels or Lille to be processed, which defeats the object of a through service

 

[Peterthegreat]

Interesting that they'd be giving it to Eurostar. With the Kent MPs complaining about the lack of Ashford and Ebbsfleet services and Eurostar not budging at all, I'm surprised that we'd give such an important new service to Eurostar, when it seems like they can and will ignore our wishes if they feel like it. I personally would've liked to see an international arm of GBR (when that's set up) operate these, but I get that it would be complex. I don't know if I misread the Eurostar Kent situation, but either way - weird move to give this hugely important new international link to a private company with no UK stake when the word on the lips of the DfT has been 'nationalisation'

I am quite happy Eurostar doesn't stop at Ebbsfleet and Ashford with the current level of service.
A stop or stops slows the trains down for a negligible amount of passengers as well as potentially introducing delays and adding costs.
Your comment about ignoring "our" wishes is therefore incorrect.

 

[Shrop]

Apologies in case I’ve missed something upthread that might answer this, but Schengen must be by far the biggest hurdle to services running between London and continental Europe. Even if trains from London were to provide direct services to cities in Germany and Switzerland, as well as to France beyond Paris, the Schengen hurdle remains a big compromise by making check-in times longer etc.

So the two questions in this context are firstly, is there any chance that the UK might re-join the EU, and secondly, if they do, can they do it properly this time, ie by also joining Schengen? Before giving any obvious answers in the negative, think whether or not the reasons we kept out of Schengen last time we were in the EU, really achieved all that much ...

 

[Chester1]

Why would you want any train with multiple stops to be full from the first stop alone? That makes no sense. It's as much about providing a journey opportunity as it is about improving the services along the way. It depends on the route and timetable but if people in Belgium want to go to Berlin direct for example, that would be as beneficial as it is to us in London. Personally, I want to see some sleeper services from St Pancras to places all over the Continent and surprised they aren't a thing already.

8 hours on a Voyager may be terrible but if the train is designed to be comfortable for longer journeys, I think people would choose it so long as it's priced appropriately. Europe is a good compact size and dense population to have a viable high speed continental rail network that could be a good alternative to flying I think, especially if geography and political issues are reduced. Rail Baltica comes to mind between Finland and Estonia. And it would be difficult but if an Irish rail tunnel was ever possible, I think that would take significant numbers off of flights.

I've done Inverness to London in one day (8 hour journey on the direct LNER route) and it was a long day but it was doable. Much prefer that over 8 hours in a car or coach! Not having to change at Edinburgh is useful in ways that really make taking the train that much more attractive. Just because few people will do the full route, doesn't stop the improved connectivity being really important. It's not just about the numbers who use this all the way to Berlin, the potential with developments like this is massive!

There could only be intermediate journeys east bound. Eurostar doesn't currently do this but its possible once trains have arrived in a Schengen country. West bound no intermediate travel could be allowed without needing everyone to detrain before leaving Schengen to enter the EU. This limits stops to stations with border control facilities. There are practical issues around doing border controls at Cologne that may or may not be solvable.

There is a big difference between a route being comfortable to do by train and it being the preferred option for sufficient travellers to make the service financially viable. I have travelled to Berlin by train but even as a train enthusiast its not something I have done for most visits, its just too much time.

Sleeper trains have been done to death on this sub forum. They aren't financially viable on any route from London to the continent. They are a niche service that rarely work financially and are only subsidised when there is a specific social need e.g. Caledonian Sleeper. Interchanging onto the sleepers in Brussels doesn't cost the British taxpayer.

The one route that could work is London to Frankfurt, with an offering aimed at business travel e.g. a table at every seat.

The border issues mean that it could only be used for intermediate journeys on the way to Berlin, not on the way back. Otherwise everyone would need to get off in Brussels or Lille to be processed, which defeats the object of a through service

There could be another German station with passport control to enable additonal journeys to London which would help a bit.

 

[signed]

SNCF does seem very bad at cooperating, based on the Spanish example in particular.

SNCF is simply desperate, and has been for sometimes, likely scared about the EU rules. Which is funny as they are doing what they don't want on their turf.

Both operations (in IT and ES) broke out because SNCF backstabbed their partners. Which arguably has succeded, Ouigo Espana (along with Iryo) is rocking Renfe quite bad, and it took TI 9 years before running a day train to France on their own.

cooperating with SBB, even if SNCF itself is utterly terrible at that.

SNCF and SBB, apart from the fares which can indeed be ludicrous, I would argue not at all, they have bent backwards to fit as Swiss takt when the French way is the farthest from that

 

[cle]

London - Brussels - Koln - Frankfurt only would actually be faster than the ICE/Thalys services, no North, Liege or Aachen. Possibly not the FRA airport station too - so it might be popular for those intermediate legs too. Sub 4 hours I would have thought.

Super productive time spent, vs the time waste involved in a short flight. Green. Easy.

 

[Farnborough]

With the Kent MPs complaining about the lack of Ashford and Ebbsfleet services and Eurostar not budging at all...

But are Ashford and Ebbsfleet due to Eurostar, or Government, intransigence?

 

[signed]

But are Ashford and Ebbsfleet due to Eurostar, or Government, intransigence?

At the end of the day, ES is a fully private open-access operation, so if they don't think it's commercially valid to stop at intermediaries, then they're free.

 

[Chester1]

Apologies in case I’ve missed something upthread that might answer this, but Schengen must be by far the biggest hurdle to services running between London and continental Europe. Even if trains from London were to provide direct services to cities in Germany and Switzerland, as well as to France beyond Paris, the Schengen hurdle remains a big compromise by making check-in times longer etc.

So the two questions in this context are firstly, is there any chance that the UK might re-join the EU, and secondly, if they do, can they do it properly this time, ie by also joining Schengen? Before giving any obvious answers in the negative, think whether or not the reasons we kept out of Schengen last time we were in the EU, really achieved all that much ...

I made my first paragraph of post 972 waiting for this. Anyone who thinks its politically viable for any future British government to allow illegal immigrants to jump on a train in France without passport checks need a wider social circle reflective of British politics. The Dublin protocol had a return rate of asylum seekers of about 1% to the other EU members pre brexit.There was a poll this week that put support for British rejoining of EU at 36% if we weren't given euro and Schengen opts out (that no new member has had since the 90s). There is majority in the UK to rejoin on special terms but a majority against it in EU unless we joined on same terms as everyone else.

 

[signed]

There is majority in the UK to rejoin on special terms but a majority against it in EU unless we joined on same terms as everyone else.

EU rejoin is basically implausible and impossible at this point. The UK joining the EFTA (and then maybe the EEA) is the best thing that can be done.